500 Years Later: Another Reformation, Or The Resurrection?

Thank you Karen!

@silentknight ... Hey brother, you know me so hopefully this doesn't sound like an endorsement. I don't know Carl Lentz other than what I've heard or seen in news clips. Some of what I've seen is a bit too much, but again I'm not aware of the whole picture.

Taking on the specific topic and question posed to him on the View. Could he have been more vocal about condemning abortion? Yes!
Does he have a reason for his response? Maybe.

When I share Jesus and him crucified many "works based" objections are given as questions or rather reasons to not believe. While I find that an invalid reason to not accept the free gift, I do not major on the minor.

In that moment my role is not to bring that person anywhere but to the saving knowledge of the atonement of Christ. I would not want my belief, conviction or knowledge of God's "law" getting in the way of that message. In those conversations I redirect people back on topic by answering similarly to Lentz. When (Hopefully if) that person receives the gospel it is the Holy Spirit who convicts them of sin and sinful ways.

I do not know if that person has had an abortion and has already been condemned by Christians. Or has a family member who was in a situation where the life of the mother was at risk and feels horrible about it, so redirection is acceptable.

Again I'm not advocating his response as the best one just offering a perspective as to why he may have responded as he did. I'm likely going way beyond the benefit of the doubt though.

hey mike,

I understand what you are saying.  And I like your thoughts.  I agree there are many times when we are dealing with people that the sin in their live, past or present, is not the message we are trying to get across.  At the same time, even in those moments, we must remember, the only reason they need Christ at all, is because of the sin in their life.  So if we pretend they have no sin, there is no reason for us to even be sharing the gospel.  But that does not mean we have to list the sin or focus on the sin.  I focus on the power and desire of God to forgive - I focus on the fact that He is the only being in the universe that is not counting their trespasses against them - even before they believe.  But if that person asks me, so is it a sin to do such and such, I am likely to answer honestly.  I also, though, understand the deflection technique and I don’t think you are wrong in doing that either.

But, and it is a big But …..

That was not the case in what was happening with the hillsong pastor.   In this case, it was a generic question asked as a general principle in front of millions of viewers.  It was not a one on one, personal conversation between two people. It was not about a particular person, nor was it in the context of sharing the message of Christ.   It was a chance to say in front of everyone one that abortion is a horrifying stain on America and the world.  It was a chance to stand for righteousness and, perhaps, sacrifice one’s own self interest for the sake of God.  And once again, Christianity sat down and tried to woo the masses.

Lentz did not share the gospel during these 8 minutes on the view.  He was selling HIS book, HIS church, and most importantly,  HIS image.  Would it have been so hard to say, “Yes, that is a sin, but we have a God who gave his only son, Jesus, to show how much he loves us and forgives us for the sins we commit.  And God does this for free and wants to wash us in his love and mercy to remove all our sin.  Just try to find that anywhere else in this world.”  

Now, with one statement, he condemns the murder of innocents, and presents the gospel in a way that can also lead to healing of the wounds of those who may be affected by abortion in there lives.

Now - how long, prior to the interview, do you think Lentz prepared for that interview?  He would have known he was likely to receive such a question.  Certainly he has dealt with that question in the past.  So, he prepared to say what he said.  He could have just as easily prepared to say what I said.   But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.  Perhaps he will recant - we can wait and see.

My post is not really even about Lentz.  He is just one of many - some are higher profile than others.  My post was in connection to the essay I attached earlier in this thread.  I saw what Lentz did as basically representing Christianity in this case.  One would have to read that essay to get the full meaning behind my post.

Thoughts?

@silentknight and mike

I am going to take this at a little different angle. SK is right about Lentz response, he should have answered this in a better way and present the gospel while stating what the Bible says, and sadly he did neither. He did however imply that with his statement "I want to get to know your name first..." which to me at least as I took it and I could be wrong as an invitation to discuss something like this in a more private setting, and that I do agree with. He certainly seems very liberal and I do not know much about him other than some celebrities promoting and supposedly turning to Jesus. For example Justine Bieber who surprisingly and very publicly now announces Jesus as his Savior.

I will look more into his church and see if they are truly presenting the gospel or some watered down bs.

But, and here is my but and this is very personal but being on the other end of this, I see why he responded the way he did to a degree. Because if he has had women come forward with this and ministered to them, then he has first hand seen the pain and damage it causes.

Being someone who has had an abortion at a very young age, and the guilt and pain and suffering it has caused now for over a decade, if someone would have came at me wagging a finger and saying murder, sinner!! I probably would have kicked their a**. Not joking at all. Being in a room, full of women waiting to get this done, this is not something majority of them want to do... it was the most horrifying experience in my life. There were a couple women who seemed to not care or were bothered by it, but most were alone and silent.

I did not want to and never cried so hard in my life. But I was talked into doing something I did not want to. But, I was in a very very desperate situation at that point in my life. Please do not think I mean that as an excuse, it's not. But not understanding and being turned away from my faith, I had no one and the thought of leaning on the Lord about this was unfortunately not there. It destroyed me utterly for years afterwards and I still deal with the mental consequences of this decision. Doing this changed me entirely as a person. I died that day with my unborn baby. I have never been the same since that day. Especially with my background of being familiar of the Christian/Gods word about it. I am very aware of what I did and look forward to meeting my little one in heaven someday. That is the only way and reason I can deal with it. I know I am forgiven, but the guilt, the memories, and the pain never goes away.

I do believe this is something that should be approached tenderly and lovingly. He knew that question was going to come up, and he should have stated the gospel. But I did get a hint of an invitation of a more personal conversation and that I do think he is correct on.

And just to clarify, yes I believe it is a sin and there are other options and it is made too easy to do, but a lot of women do not use this as birth control and are very desperate and completely backed in a corner. Knowing what I know now, I would certainly push the other options choice and very much so stress the long term consequences of doing such a thing.

I just wanted to add a female viewpoint on this.

cwood85:  Thank you for sharing some very personal information with us!

You all {SK, Mike} and cwood85 have made some valid points.

The old saying "You got to walk a mile in another's shoes before you can hope to understand where they come from." -- is very true!

And many of us forget this detail -- when we start condemning the actions and spoken words of others.....

I think that is why Jesus warns us NOT to JUDGE others ..... cause we all have a ton of our own baggage to deal with first.

As someone who was conceived by two still in High School unmarried teenagers, I know that I could have been aborted rather than my folks marrying and starting their new family.  It was not easy for them, to finish High School (one year for Father / Two years for Mother) -- get jobs and start raising a family.
I do know with at least 99% certainty -- it was because my folks were both raised in Christian Homes -- that lead them to believe I was a person rather than an IT (or bit of tissue).

My personal opinion -- is that only when you get people thinking of conceived persons rather than some pieces of tissue -- will one get a handle on the abortion.

It is so unfortunate that Christianity has done such a botched job of teaching righteousness in Love. Instead they focus on sin, sin, sin. So then, Lentz tries to do the opposite to be “not like the normal Christian.” In this case, both sides of the issue are in error.


@silentknight

I could not agree more. I think if more unsaved people saw more Christians representing themselves in a more compassionate way, loving, and very much so as sinners themselves, and got out of the church more (if they have the means) more would come to the Lord or at least it would be easier to reach others. Which is why I do not mind sharing things like this. It is not easy, it is personal and I fight myself on it, but people need to hear it. I know you were not entirely focused on Lentz The lack of having the courage to speak the word instead of pointing back at himself, his church, his book, and so forth is an unsettling problem that is rapidly growing.  If people did not have experiences like mine or worse, then what would we have to give testimony to? It is my cross I carry everyday. my thorn in my side, and daily death. Which is why I also do not agree with the people standing at the abortion clinics with signs that say what they do... some have things that say Jesus loves you, but most just point to the sin, call these women murderers and so forth. How horrid. While they are wanting to spread the word of God and his salvation they are doing more damage than good with this technique. Instead of holding signs and shouting, get out to women's and teens centers, homeless shelters, and etc. Get involved in this area and HELP them and see what some of these people are really going through and what leads them to do what they do. I know it is not for everyone, but I am coming more and more to the understanding that we are to wear the armor of God, and use it. When you wear armor, you are ready for battle at the front lines and have the expectancy of receiving some damage. 

The front lines are where the poor are, the drug addicts, the prisoners, and so forth. In the dirt, the darkness, and the nitty gritty. Most of these people have no one who loves them, the least we could do is show them that yes they do, Jesus does and wants to bring them out of the darkness and show them with love. I have small children and it is not easy to get into the front lines and keep them safe. But I think I have found a way, and am working with some people at my church and others. It is nothing big, and I am not going to brag, but I have really been racking my brains and praying, because we are the light that shines in this very dark and troubling world. 

No use in keeping a flashlight where you can't reach it or without batteries. 

mike  I would be interested in hearing your experience with Hillsong

Thanks everyone. I hope it was not too personal

I believe so @silentknight

Even if I am having a hard time with it lol. We all have a Jonah moment and run away or several in my case...

But here is something, God just wants us. It is so simple.

That is what it boils down to. We (not anyone here) have made this so difficult! Rules, laws, judgements that we have no business giving or throwing in people's faces!

If we simply focused on that, and spread/explained this with His beautiful gospel, we would not have all these crazy denominations (ever notice that word starts with demon just spelled a little different ?) and lordship salvation, teaching that Salvation can be lost, and all of that that goes along with it, people would realize He won already, He is the life and the light ❤️