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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2017 12:30:23 GMT -6
The Dilemma:
NOTE: If you wish to download a printable copy of this thread without all the additional comments and questions from members, you may do so here. In most of the various Christian groups, the preachers, pastors, and priests, as well as many of the authors and laity, will preach their messages under the all- powerful claim that God gave them the message. We hear many statements such as – “God says this,” or “The spirit led me to say that,” or “Scripture tells us such and such,” etc... While they are each claiming their messages and instructions are from God, many times they are in direct opposition to each other. We hear preachers saying that a particular passage of scripture means one thing, while some other author claims it to mean something entirely different. We also see passages of scripture that directly seem to contradict each other. It is no small wonder that we have so many different Christian churches. But how can we understand this? Can we ever worship in spirit and truth when almost everybody understands a different truth and claims the Spirit or bible told them that truth? How can we claim that God protects His word and then see so many different ways of reading it? How is it possible to know any truth? Before tackling these questions, I’d like to provide my opinion as to why we are in this state. In our being, we have three modes of existence, three bodies. We have a physical body, a spirit, and a soul. The word of God comes to us in many ways, but whether it enters through the eye, the ear, or the heart, the first place it goes is to the spirit. Here the word is heard by the spiritual ears and is translated into a language that we understand (Rom 8:26). It matters not whether the spiritual ears received it directly from the Spirit of God or whether they heard a person speak or whether they read a book, including scripture. In all these cases they hear the word with their spiritual ears. If they have no spiritual ears, they do not hear the word. God is in the business of growing spiritual ears. Once the word has been heard, it is then translated and sent on to the heart and mind. This is the area of the soul. The soul interprets the word. Unfortunately, the soul is also the home of our idols. All our wants and desires and preconceived ideas are housed here. Our traditions, our pressures, etc., all find a home in our soul. So our interpretation is skewed by all the elements within our soul. Once interpreted, the word is then sent on to the body where it is applied. That is, the word is acted (or not acted) upon. We preach a message, teach a lesson, do something, or do nothing, but we act upon the heard, translated, and interpreted word. Of course, the body has its own problems. There are issues of self control, temptation, laziness, and gluttony. To mention a few. As you can see, there is plenty of opportunity for us to get the word of God wrong. First, we may not even hear it. Then, we could hear it, but mistranslate it. These first two errors are because of faulty spiritual ears. Once we pass the barely heard and/or mistranslated message on to the soul, the soul completely corrupts the message based on our traditions, ideologies, and desires. This is just as true when we read scripture as when we received the word from the spirit. Either way, first we must hear the word through the spirit and then move it through this process. Eventually the corrupted message reaches our body for action. We act, teach, or preach incorrectly, but we have enough spiritual memory to remember that the word originally came from God, and so in our incorrectness we say, “God told me...” It is very much like the old game of telephone, only the consequences are much more serious (see Ezekiel 14, Jeremiah 23). This is why one person can have a completely different interpretation of scripture than another person, and why one person can hear God saying one thing while another hears God saying something opposite. It is not God who is having trouble communicating. It is all part of His plan, but it is our idols and sin that prevent us from understanding truth. The problem becomes complicated by the fact that once in a while we get it right! When this happens, we quickly build up a sense of pride in our “closeness” to God or to the truth. This causes future interpretations to become clouded and we are back where we were before, but now we have followers who watched us “get it right.” They feed the pride and soon we are hearing God saying all sorts of things that He simply is not saying. Many cult followings and denominations had just such a start – an original truth that has had many lies piled on top of it. None of us are immune to this problem. So the times when the true voice of God is heard, translated, interpreted, and then acted upon correctly are rare. Understanding these concepts allows us to see why there are so many different opinions about what is true. I’ll pause here to allow for some discussion - before continuing on to the next part...
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Post by Natalie on Oct 19, 2017 14:17:06 GMT -6
That makes sense to me. I think also that the Word that we hear is filtered through our past experiences, teachings, conversations, etc. So, because of my history I may hear things one way while someone else may hear it a different way. Or maybe interpret is the better word. It is very hard to set all that aside. I will have to think on this more, but definitely one thing to do is to go to God with much prayer as we read His Word.
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 19, 2017 15:41:08 GMT -6
One way I've found to back up scripture is with scripture. God clearly shows himself through every word and passage in the Bible. I usually don't take people's word on it especially if they take a single verse out of scripture and run with it. Also utilizing exegesis and hermeneutics (two disciplines rare taught in the church today) helps bring understanding to God's word as well. Most importantly as @natalie said, reading the word of God without listening to the Spirit can lead you easily to an interpretation through your own pre-understanding and not God's understanding. I even challenge my own pastors teaching by reading the word and seeking discernment from God. I'm curious what you have to say more @silentknight , lol...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2017 19:16:09 GMT -6
That makes sense to me. I think also that the Word that we hear is filtered through our past experiences, teachings, conversations, etc. So, because of my history I may hear things one way while someone else may hear it a different way. Or maybe interpret is the better word. It is very hard to set all that aside. I will have to think on this more, but definitely one thing to do is to go to God with much prayer as we read His Word. Good points Natalie. I would link these filters as also part of our soul. They would therefore kick in during the interpretation phase. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2017 12:03:26 GMT -6
PreludeAs we continue down this path, I want to preface these modules with a warning. Some of what I must say in order to convey this message will not sit well with some of you. I do not mean any personal accusation by any of it. My statements are generalizations with no particular person or denomination in mind. If you find yourself wearing a shoe with incredible comfort - it is purely coincidence. But I also ask that before you reject these concepts - please weigh them in your spirit. Ponder them before the Lord. Then do as you feel led. Also, I am trying to keep these modules very short - there is so much more detail I could offer to those that are genuinely interested. So I will be skimming over some topics where we could dive much deeper. I guess I’d need to hear from you if a deeper dive is desired and how you would want to go about accomplishing it. Some necessary background understanding - hopefully this won’t bore you too much 
Before we can get straight to the solution to this situation, I need to give a basic framework upon which to hang future modules. If you have been reading my other postings, you may know that I believe that the feasts are indeed the markers for the appointed times in the cyclic, spiral calendar of God. There are many smaller fulfillments and some major fulfillments of each feast and the calendar has not yet been completed. But the spiral does not only represent on the universal scale. It manifests itself within the corporate body of Christ as well as down to the individual walk of each believer. Some have said that the feasts are tied to the Messiah - and of course they are - but in the same what that everything is tied to the Messiah. He is the Lord of the Sabbath - He is the Lord of the Feasts - He is the Jubilee. But the feasts also apply to the individual believer as well. And this is directly tied to our ability to hear the voice of God. God is the God of the Ages and he has brought us through several of those ages so far. However, his plan of salvation throughout all these ages is the same for every one. God uses several images / illustrations to help us grasp the ages. He speaks of harvests and various “fruits” of the harvests. He speaks of child bearing and pregnancy, he uses His feasts, he uses the stories of the early kings of Israel (Saul, David, and Solomon), he even uses the lives of the church fathers (Abraham, Issac, Jacob and his sons - and all their wives). The church began long before the cross. Why is this relevant to hearing God? Because part of hearing and properly interpreting God is being able to say Amen to His plan. Not ours. We need to review the life of the corporate church and then we will apply that to us as individuals. So, from a corporate sense: - the church had its passover experience when they left Egypt and this also began the Passover Age.
- the church was baptized in the red sea and came out of the “water” into life just as the sun was rising on the day of First Fruits.
- the church was given the law on stone at Mt. Sinai on Pentecost
- the church was given the opportunity to move onto the fall feasts when, on the day of atonement, they failed to cross into the promised land. On this day, they began to separate into those that could hear God and those that could not.
These were all foreshadows of the fulfillment in Christ: - Christ fulfilled Passover and ended the Passover Age.
- Christ fulfilled First Fruits by ascending to His Father on First Fruits (this was not his Ascension in Acts)
- The Holy Spirit was given and began the process of writing the law on our hearts at Pentecost - starting the Pentecostal Age
The church has been in this Pentecostal Age since Pentecost of 33 AD. But we are coming to the very end of the current age. I believe the Rev 12 sign was declaring the end of the age. Perhaps we can cover more on this later…. * * * Each of us, in our own walk also encounter this same sequence as God deals with us according to our own personal feast schedule. Christianity has forgotten about the Feasts and the beauty of God revealed within them, but in this closing of the age, He has wonderfully begun the process of restoring our understanding of His schedule vs our schedule. We have been of the mindset - get saved - go to heaven. It’s what is in between that we often can’t figure out and upon which most of our disagreements lie . The feasts help us to understand how God is working with us. Our moment of belief is our Passover experience. In our being, we have recognized the uselessness of our own leavened work and claimed the blood of the lamb to cover our sin. We then symbolize this via baptism - we go down into the sea(die to the law of sin and death) and rise again with him(to the newness of life) on our own personal first fruits. The next thing most of us tend to do? Where’s the promised land? Let me in Lord! We’re ready to move onto the Fall Feasts (even though, in our Christian walk, we never perceived it that way). But guess what - the “in between” is Pentecost. Now I can hear all you Assembly of God folk saying - Amen brother, preach it! Sorry to disappoint, but I am not talking about Pentecost from the perspective of the pentecostal movement that started about 70 years ago. Though there is a connection to the timing of it all. I’m talking about Pentecost from the perspective of God and His feasts - I’m talking about Him writing His fiery law on our hearts. You see, without experiencing Pentecost in our lives, we cannot experience the fall feasts - trumpets, atonement, and tabernacles. You are saved, but, believe it or not, that is not the end of God working with you! Praise the Father that he is not only the author of our faith, but also the finisher. Pentecost is where we learn to hear, discern, and properly interpret the voice of God. I’ll pause again for any discussion desired - To be continue….
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 12:31:03 GMT -6
That makes sense to me. I think also that the Word that we hear is filtered through our past experiences, teachings, conversations, etc. So, because of my history I may hear things one way while someone else may hear it a different way. Or maybe interpret is the better word. It is very hard to set all that aside. I will have to think on this more, but definitely one thing to do is to go to God with much prayer as we read His Word. Natalie, As I read your reply I thought of one thing. While I agree we must bring this to the Lord in prayer, and read the word, (I think) we must also keep an open mind and heart about the issue/subject/topic. I have struggled mightily with prior teachings and dogmas until recently where I really just said, "I gotta forget all the old stuff and relearn". Of course the one thing I said I cant change is He died, was buried and rose for me/us. I digress, please indulge me for a hot second...I was very backslidden for many many (TOOOO many) years. In the time leading up to my return, I knew and used to say "I know one day I'll start reading, praying etc again but I do not want to be like I was before". Too much majoring on minors (legalism) was part of my experience. And there it is! My experience formed my thought process, my worldview. So during that time the Holy Spirit was nudging me to return, I continued to say theres only really one thing that matters, His sacrifice for me. Unless we're willing to release our grip on things we grasp so tightly to, we may not be able to hear what He is saying clearly |
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 12:47:27 GMT -6
SK question/your thoughts on the "Prelude" section as they pertain to the time prior to the Exodus...What I mean is I often ponder, that before the law we see the "law" of God written on the hearts of Abraham and others. For example, how did Noah know to sacrifice when they left the ark? The law wasnt given, where'd he get that from? I have my thoughts on it, as God walked with Adam and Adam lived 900+ yrs and was able to teach what he learned directly to his offspring for numerous generations. I guess I'd like to know your thoughts on the "law" before the law a little more. You gonna get into that or touch it??
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2017 13:24:09 GMT -6
SK question/your thoughts on the "Prelude" section as they pertain to the time prior to the Exodus...What I mean is I often ponder, that before the law we see the "law" of God written on the hearts of Abraham and others. For example, how did Noah know to sacrifice when they left the ark? The law wasnt given, where'd he get that from? I have my thoughts on it, as God walked with Adam and Adam lived 900+ yrs and was able to teach what he learned directly to his offspring for numerous generations. I guess I'd like to know your thoughts on the "law" before the law a little more. You gonna get into that or touch it?? Great question mike - I agree with your thoughts on the how the "law" was passed down via the earlier fathers of the church (Adam, etc) many of these men walked with God and his character was revealed directly. Through their conversations with God and with their father's, they knew the way to honor the Lord. The word "law" or "the law" means different things to different people and in different contexts. The true law is the character of God.
God walks in righteousness and is holy. It was illustrated in the person of Jesus Christ as the word incarnate.
Now a token of this law - a very finite morsel of it - was given to Moses at Mount Sinai and communicated to Moses at various other times. This is the Old Testament Law and is what most Christians think about when one says the word law. It was given at Pentecost and written in stone.
The Hebrew people then took the Old Testament Law and attached various meanings to it and wrote all this down into the Talmud. This is the Traditional Jewish Law. It is important to realize that to the typical Jewish person there is no difference between the Old Testament Law and the Traditional Jewish Law. If there was a difference, deference would be given to the Traditional Jewish Law.
Christians today have their own traditional law; that is, rules of do's and don'ts put upon them by society, their church, their fellowship, or themselves. This law includes their system of moral conduct as well as defining what is acceptable doctrine. I call this law, Traditional Church Teaching.
The Old Testament Law was not done away with when Christ came to this earth. Rather, that which it reflects, (the character of God), was illustrated by the ministry of Christ who fulfills the law. Jesus fulfills his own character. The essence of the law is Love because the essence of God is love and the law is fulfilled in love. New Testament Christianity is not permitted to disobey this law anymore then Old Testament Christianity. Salvation was never achieved by the law and it still is not today!
There has been a shift from the physical to the spiritual as it relates to mankind‘s understanding of the law. Some of the Old testament laws have been completely fulfilled by Jesus, but the spirit and principals of that law are still representative of the character of God. God has not changed and he still acts according to the principals of who he is. 1 Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
John calls sin the transgression of the law, Paul then indicates that we cannot continue in sin or lawlessness. So what law are we talking about? Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2-5 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. The law we now follow is the law of the spirit. The letter of the law is insufficient to guide us into all love, but the spirit of the law will allow us to walk in righteousness. This does not remove the righteousness of the Old Testament Law, nor does it remove our obligation to obey it. It simply points out that obeying the law does not mean following the letter, but the spirit, of the law. The Old Testament Law is a guide to a more perfect reflection of God‘s character and as we come into agreement with this law (through our pentecost experience) we follow it not because of obedience, but because we agree with it. To be clear - None of this is about salvation. |
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Post by sharpstick on Oct 20, 2017 14:11:45 GMT -6
This is amazing stuff. It's so obvious once it is pointed out. I feel like @silentknight is a brother from another mother!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2017 14:13:04 GMT -6
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Post by claire on Oct 21, 2017 1:37:25 GMT -6
There was a thread on Math Lesson a while back and in it, someone posted a video explaining the difference between dimensions. It was an animation of how Mr Flat views a 3D object. I thought that was quite a good analogy. If we are 2 different persons in flat land, we would see the 3D object as either a line or a dot or a flat surface and they are all not wrong. Our interpretation of what we hear from God is also affected by our view of God so it is no surprise that what we hear may at times differ from another person. A person who believes that God is angry with people and demanding full obedience and perfection and all too ready to cast people to hell would of course believe that God is giving him fire and brimstone and 'brood of vipers' messages.
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karen
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Post by karen on Oct 21, 2017 18:45:43 GMT -6
@silentknight, you said "Also, I am trying to keep these modules very short - there is so much more detail I could offer to those that are genuinely interested. So I will be skimming over some topics where we could dive much deeper. I guess I’d need to hear from you if a deeper dive is desired and how you would want to go about accomplishing it."
Thank you for this thread. I find the information in your modules very thought provoking and would like to dive much deeper. I was wondering if it is possible to create some kind of printable format which would be so great for underlining and making notes etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 11:20:04 GMT -6
@silentkninght, you said "Also, I am trying to keep these modules very short - there is so much more detail I could offer to those that are genuinely interested. So I will be skimming over some topics where we could dive much deeper. I guess I’d need to hear from you if a deeper dive is desired and how you would want to go about accomplishing it." Thank you for this thread. I find the information in your modules very thought provoking and would like to dive much deeper. I was wondering if it is possible to create some kind of printable format which would be so great for underlining and making notes etc. Hi Karen, I have some stuff in writing. I'll look for it as soon as I can. I assume there is a way of printing these posts, but maybe not. I could, at a minimum, provide a link to a printable version of the content I am putting here. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 11:20:42 GMT -6
All - I will try to post the next module later tonight - needing to spend some family time today.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 19:55:30 GMT -6
Man’s Solution #1 - Appoint someone else to hear the word for us
God provided the church in the wilderness for our instruction. The experiences that occurred to the Hebrew children, are the very experiences that the modern church is experiencing. What began at the first Pentecost under Moses, began again at the Pentecost under the holy spirit. The 40 years in the wilderness equates to our 40 jubilees in the wilderness waiting for Christ.
So let’s take a look at what happened at that first Pentecost. The people had the option to hear the word of God directly:
Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Exo 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Instead, the people were afraid of the consequences of hearing God’s voice “lest [they] die.” You see, the word of God burns. It is a consuming fire. At the Pentecost in Acts we see the flames upon the heads also representing the fire of God as it writes their law in the hearts of the people. To do this requires burning off flesh.
Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu 4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Deu 5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
Deu 5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Deu 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
Deu 5:26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
Deu 5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deu 5:30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
So the Hebrew people told Moses to go hear from God and then he could just give them the message. They went back to their tents. But that is not the plan that God has for his people. He has created us to hear - and he speaks to us directly. He says:
Deu 4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
The thing is, the Hebrew people weren’t 100% wrong. The word of God does burn. Notice this was all a Pentecost event. God was setting the stage for our Pentecost experience. That is, as we hear the word of God, it burns off our flesh. It destroys our idols. It provides spiritual instruction.
Later, Jesus tells us to deny ourselves and take up on our cross daily. He who wishes to save his life shall lose it. etc. Paul says he dies daily.
The truth hurts. The word of God burns off our flesh.
So what did the new testament church do? Well, it followed the pattern of the church in the wilderness. It appointed men to hear the word of God for them. For the catholic churches it is the pope and the priesthood. But we have also continued the policy into the reformation. Although, there is a basic understanding that God may speak to people, we have put such rigid restrictions upon this “word” that most have given up hope on hearing. Instead, they trust their pastor to bring them the word of God each week and they receive their instruction that way. But often, this word is corrupted by the process we outlined in the first module.
Once again, this is not the plan of God for Pentecost. This is a church stuck in Passover. And many Christians are also stuck in Passover. They believe, they have crossed the Red sea and then they laid a foundation, built a house, and starting waiting for heaven. But God did not stop after he brought the people out of Egypt. He did not stop on the other side of the Red Sea. Just like then, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire are still leading us into all truth. If we are not able to move when the spirit leads - we are not walking in faith. We are not fulfilling Pentecost in our life.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Man’s first solution is to appoint someone else to hear the word for them. Many don’t do this consciously. We have simply grown up under this methodology. It never occurred to us that we could or should hear the word directly from God. If anyone does ever feel they may have heard the word of the Lord, they are usually shut down pretty fast by their peers or pastors. Often they are ridiculed or corrected. Very rarely do people trust the words they hear let alone what others hear. We will cover more of this in a different module.
Ok - another pause ….
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