|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 1, 2018 13:41:45 GMT -6
Nice venge you must have heard or read Frank Turek..
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 1, 2018 14:06:08 GMT -6
I have posed that same question before venge and the responses vary but most get the bewildered look, then figure out how silly it sounds to not believe in God. I must admit "we" fallen natured people love our sin. Its only when the Holy Spirit shows us how it separates us from God that our desires change
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jun 2, 2018 10:13:47 GMT -6
I have posed that same question before venge and the responses vary but most get the bewildered look, then figure out how silly it sounds to not believe in God. I must admit "we" fallen natured people love our sin. Its only when the Holy Spirit shows us how it separates us from God that our desires change I think too many people "read into" the text and don't see the big picture. Everything in the bible describes searching scripture for answers. Casual people looking for the mark of the beast will never find it and will believe whatever was printed on the internet. One must understand the context. I don't know if I have it all right. But it must follow scripture, it must follow the right translation of the word the writer used, it must explain other things having to do with the beast to seem plausible and it must make sense.
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 2, 2018 13:58:21 GMT -6
venge YLT Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number is six hundred and sixty six.There in lies the key. It is more that just this one verse. I believe it is a series of verses or teachings that leads to this understanding of this number and being able to calculate it. We are coming out of Chapter 13 at the culminating of this verse. All along there is so much metaphor or rather, spiritual descriptions that I believe one must stay in the spiritual-aspect of this verse too. It is tempting to go physical literal instead of spiritual literal because there are these tangible numbers. So let me toss this out there: 100 Biblically numbers-wise is aassociated with Promise or Election. 6 of course is weakness of man, or sin, and they say Satan. 10 is referenced to law 66 is referenced to idol worship 60 is Pride 11 is disorder and division What I am wondering here this is an elected person according to law (religious, because of using 'biblical meaning" of a number, not pagen) to calculate. A being that is worshipped and full of pride, or those following do so with pride. We all could have made this find using the biblical numbers thing, but one thing that intrigued me is the idea of an Elected, sinful being = 6 x100, Elected according to the law of sin, or the ways of the Law in general, not by Faith. So this is a religious figure in a sense because of the number 10 and 100 being part of the math of this being. This being also will cause division, which makes sense because of the taking the mark or not thing. My next comment will come with some resistance thought, maybe... This calculating has to do with the Beast of the Earth. the verses prior are this: 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make (an image to the beast) who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15And it was given to him to give breath to (the image of the beast,) so that the (image of the beast) would even speak and cause as many as do not worship (the image of the beast)to be killed. 16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.Looking at this from verse 17 backward.. the Mark indicating currency?, seeing as we are talking about buying/selling, this mark could be a coin... and it has two forms: one that is NameDont confuse what I am saying here. I am considering that this Name is something that goes without further definition. meaning, when you say, Christian, you assume Christ-follower, when you say Jew, you assume Chosen people...stuff like that, so this Name is a Brand in itself..Bitcoin? or the Number: Definition: a number, total, and includes the meaning group..this is where I am leaning on this Number of a man is not eclusively singular in nature. This part of Ch 13 of Rev is a specific description of a group of lawless peoples, who are in control and deceiving the masses.. This to me could be something that can begin to establish and become "cancer" in a short amount of time, yet the complexities of this beast from the Earth just seems to me to be a process that either has been going on, or will begin to establish post Rapture yet is not limited to a specific 3 1/2 years, or even 7... This is one of the aspects of Revelation that to me is part of the 3 1/2 year, or 7, but is something that can begin to manifest prior. But that is just me. There are parts of Rev that fit into Daniel, yes, I see that, but I think there is much more to it... But also too, to consider venge 's point..what pattern in history did we see this before? was there ever one? We have the numbers to indicate the character of this beast or the element of commerce/element of being able to operate with the world...stuff like that. Taking a Mark to be able to participate, but not knowing that you are participating in something that leads to destruction..because of pride, letting your flesh control you, being of the world (oh how Paul talked about this for sure), and blindly following something that is an idol. I bolded some parts of the Rev 13 verse for a reason. Wounded by the sword: hurt by Truth, (did not accept truth, so suffered persecution or demise or partial destruction in the past) but had come to life, but is resilient and has become relevant again. Sounds to me like a revived religion that seems to become the controller of commerce and the ability to even do anything with money or riches or trade or shipping, hmmm this must be closely linked to the Harlot of mystery babylon...
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jun 2, 2018 18:44:30 GMT -6
venge YLT Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number is six hundred and sixty six.There in lies the key. It is more that just this one verse. I believe it is a series of verses or teachings that leads to this understanding of this number and being able to calculate it. We are coming out of Chapter 13 at the culminating of this verse. All along there is so much metaphor or rather, spiritual descriptions that I believe one must stay in the spiritual-aspect of this verse too. It is tempting to go physical literal instead of spiritual literal because there are these tangible numbers. So let me toss this out there: 100 Biblically numbers-wise is aassociated with Promise or Election. 6 of course is weakness of man, or sin, and they say Satan. 10 is referenced to law 66 is referenced to idol worship 60 is Pride 11 is disorder and division What I am wondering here this is an elected person according to law (religious, because of using 'biblical meaning" of a number, not pagen) to calculate. A being that is worshipped and full of pride, or those following do so with pride. We all could have made this find using the biblical numbers thing, but one thing that intrigued me is the idea of an Elected, sinful being = 6 x100, Elected according to the law of sin, or the ways of the Law in general, not by Faith. So this is a religious figure in a sense because of the number 10 and 100 being part of the math of this being. This being also will cause division, which makes sense because of the taking the mark or not thing. My next comment will come with some resistance thought, maybe... This calculating has to do with the Beast of the Earth. the verses prior are this: 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make (an image to the beast) who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15And it was given to him to give breath to (the image of the beast,) so that the (image of the beast) would even speak and cause as many as do not worship (the image of the beast)to be killed. 16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.Looking at this from verse 17 backward.. the Mark indicating currency?, seeing as we are talking about buying/selling, this mark could be a coin... and it has two forms: one that is NameDont confuse what I am saying here. I am considering that this Name is something that goes without further definition. meaning, when you say, Christian, you assume Christ-follower, when you say Jew, you assume Chosen people...stuff like that, so this Name is a Brand in itself..Bitcoin? or the Number: Definition: a number, total, and includes the meaning group..this is where I am leaning on this Number of a man is not eclusively singular in nature. This part of Ch 13 of Rev is a specific description of a group of lawless peoples, who are in control and deceiving the masses.. This to me could be something that can begin to establish and become "cancer" in a short amount of time, yet the complexities of this beast from the Earth just seems to me to be a process that either has been going on, or will begin to establish post Rapture yet is not limited to a specific 3 1/2 years, or even 7... This is one of the aspects of Revelation that to me is part of the 3 1/2 year, or 7, but is something that can begin to manifest prior. But that is just me. There are parts of Rev that fit into Daniel, yes, I see that, but I think there is much more to it... But also too, to consider venge 's point..what pattern in history did we see this before? was there ever one? We have the numbers to indicate the character of this beast or the element of commerce/element of being able to operate with the world...stuff like that. Taking a Mark to be able to participate, but not knowing that you are participating in something that leads to destruction..because of pride, letting your flesh control you, being of the world (oh how Paul talked about this for sure), and blindly following something that is an idol. I bolded some parts of the Rev 13 verse for a reason. Wounded by the sword: hurt by Truth, (did not accept truth, so suffered persecution or demise or partial destruction in the past) but had come to life, but is resilient and has become relevant again. Sounds to me like a revived religion that seems to become the controller of commerce and the ability to even do anything with money or riches or trade or shipping, hmmm this must be closely linked to the Harlot of mystery babylon... I hadn't got to my "beast head's" in my thread yet but I believe that the head that was wounded by the sword and did live was either the 5th head or 7th head. I lean more towards the 5th but there is some flexibility to the 7th for reasons I will have to discuss later.
|
|
|
Post by canada on Sept 25, 2018 20:05:14 GMT -6
Early Protestantism believed the papacy to be the 666 numbered beast of Rev 13:18 Each and every pope is considered to be the "image of Peter".
I do not consider it a "coincidence" that the original 6 ROMAN numerals I V X L C D sum at ... 666 Nor do I believe it "coincidence" that the only person Jesus called Satan other than Satan himself was ... ... Peter.
Saul was changed to Paul ... but Peter was ADDED to Simon. Peter or Petrus is small pebble and small round pebbles were used to "count or calculate" in biblical times.
Here is wisdom. Let he who hath understanding count the number ... ... 666
Commentators have presented many reasons for the mystery of the 153 fish in John 21:11. Jesus said nothing about the number of the fish, but it is Peter that is associated with ... ... the counting. ccc
|
|
|
Post by venge on Sept 29, 2018 14:27:16 GMT -6
Early Protestantism believed the papacy to be the 666 numbered beast of Rev 13:18 Each and every pope is considered to be the "image of Peter".
I do not consider it a "coincidence" that the original 6 ROMAN numerals I V X L C D sum at ... 666 Nor do I believe it "coincidence" that the only person Jesus called Satan other than Satan himself was ... ... Peter.
Saul was changed to Paul ... but Peter was ADDED to Simon. Peter or Petrus is small pebble and small round pebbles were used to "count or calculate" in biblical times.
Here is wisdom. Let he who hath understanding count the number ... ... 666
Commentators have presented many reasons for the mystery of the 153 fish in John 21:11. Jesus said nothing about the number of the fish, but it is Peter that is associated with ... ... the counting. ccc Canada, Yes, it is true that some believe the papacy to be part of the beast. Some also don't (like myself =P) Though every Pope is considered to be "the image of Peter", it is worth noting that Peter was a stone or pebble and not the rock. Christ was the rock and it was him to which he told Peter (Cephas, stone/pebble) that on this rock (Christ) I will build my church. That is why we can go to 1 and 2nd Peter and see Peter is called a stones as we are all stones to build upon the foundation of the prophets and Christ the chief cornerstone to assemble into one body of Christ and a temple unto God. Didn't Satan enter Judas? Peter was called Satan, Pharaoh was under Satan's influence. There were others... Small pebbles were used to count, that is correct. If you haven't already, I would go back to page 4-6 and read all the texts. A lot of informative information on the mark.
|
|
|
Post by canada on Sept 29, 2018 19:12:45 GMT -6
Venge ... IMMEDIATELY following the 666 counting (Rev 14) notes the VICTORS over the number, that sang "as it were" a new song that only they understood.
Rev 15 speaks about the VICTORS over the beast, image mark and number and they sing the SONG OF MOSES. Deut 32.
Please read Deut 32 ... "For their rock (petrus) is not as Our Rock" (Jesus) ... and He shall say "where are their gods, their rock (petrus) in whom they trusted.
I believe God is going to destroy Vatican City sooner than later, and make it as an ever burning witness to the world, but I believe most will not believe the wickedness of Romanism until that comes to pass.
|
|
|
Post by venge on Sept 29, 2018 19:26:43 GMT -6
Venge ... IMMEDIATELY following the 666 counting (Rev 14) notes the VICTORS over the number, that sang "as it were" a new song that only they understood.
Rev 15 speaks about the VICTORS over the beast, image mark and number and they sing the SONG OF MOSES. Deut 32.
Please read Deut 32 ... "For their rock (petrus) is not as Our Rock" (Jesus) ... and He shall say "where are their gods, their rock (petrus) in whom they trusted.
I believe God is going to destroy Vatican City sooner than later, and make it as an ever burning witness to the world, but I believe most will not believe the wickedness of Romanism until that comes to pass.
Well, The 144k sing the new song and they stand on Zion with Christ as per Rev 14. The ones standing on the sea of glass sing the song of Moses are not identified as the 144k standing on the earth. Neither the first nor the second identify with the Vatican or that church. Perhaps God will destroy it as you say but it is better to show scripture that proves God will destroy a nation, a kingdom, a building, a church and scripture to proof beyond a reasonable doubt it is a catholic one. Remember my friend, Rome was the "is" to John making it the 6th head. There was a 7th and an 8th. The 8th is identified as having been alive before John as it "was and now is not but will be again". So, if Rome was the 6th in power and the 8th is the final kingdom of the AC, we know the 8th cannot be Rome because Rome was the 6th and the 8th existed BEFORE John was alive, didn't exist when he was alive but much later in the future will exist again. Therefore, the 8th final head of the beats must be a kingdom that reigned before Rome. Thisi s why the last kingdom is identified as part lion, part bear and part leopard. None of that is part Rome (the 6th head).
|
|
|
Post by canada on Sept 29, 2018 20:04:19 GMT -6
The papacy claims to be as God. Is Jesus Christ God? Yes.
Each and every pope is the ... Vicar of Christ. Vicarious ... in the place of ... Christ.
The pope is antichrist ... there are two meanings to antichrist ... "opposed to" and "in the place of".
His followers are identified by a mark on their right hand and/or forehead. At baptism, the priest dips his right hand into the font and places the cross or X mark on the forehead of the infant.
On Ash Wednesday, the priest dips his right hand into the wood ashes and places the X or cross mark on the forehead of the adult followers of the beast.
Each and every pope is considered to be the "image" of Peter.
Image Mark and Numbered Beast. One of its popes numbered 666 in Hebrew, Latin and English. This same pope rode a white horse, had a bow and crown. Rev 6:2. Where were the watchmen on the wall?
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 29, 2018 20:29:06 GMT -6
Fascinating connections Canada! We will likely be finding out these things very soon. Anathema! Maranatha!
|
|
|
Post by venge on Sept 30, 2018 11:02:09 GMT -6
The papacy claims to be as God. Is Jesus Christ God? Yes. Each and every pope is the ... Vicar of Christ. Vicarious ... in the place of ... Christ. The pope is antichrist ... there are two meanings to antichrist ... "opposed to" and "in the place of". His followers are identified by a mark on their right hand and/or forehead. At baptism, the priest dips his right hand into the font and places the cross or X mark on the forehead of the infant. On Ash Wednesday, the priest dips his right hand into the wood ashes and places the X or cross mark on the forehead of the adult followers of the beast. Each and every pope is considered to be the "image" of Peter. Image Mark and Numbered Beast. One of its popes numbered 666 in Hebrew, Latin and English. This same pope rode a white horse, had a bow and crown. Rev 6:2. Where were the watchmen on the wall? Christ also said he that is for me is not against me. Catholics are for Christ. That doesn't mean they don't err from the truth. They do, and they need to repent of these things and change. But, they are for Christ. Christ followers are also identified by a mark in their foreheads called the seal of God or the Holy Spirit. The mark is spiritual and not physical. We know this from numerous passages in the Bible. Those who are marked by the beast are marked by things spiritually against God. If each Pope is considered to be the image of Peter who was also called Satan and also refused Christ 3 times and was called a pebble rather then the rock, it just shows each Pope is a man who is guilty of their own flesh and must repent and then such following the truth can be made a living stone. The white horse in Rev 6 is not identified as a Pope or any type of religious leader. The rider is only identified as having a crown and a bow. Neither of those 2 resemble religious institutions. Now, if you believe the rider to be the Pope, can you provide scripture to support that argument? That would be interesting.
|
|
|
Post by canada on Sept 30, 2018 13:02:09 GMT -6
Venge ... you asked for scripture regarding God's destruction of a kingdom or nation or city or church etc..
That would be found in Rev 17:5 (Mystery Babylon) and 9 where it states ... and here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. Who has not heard of Rome ... the City On Seven Hills?
I am sure you are aware of Protestant history and how they suffered at the hands of Romanism, such as the massacre of Protestants in France.
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. Rev 17:6.
The destruction of that great city will be an ever burning witness to the world. Hint ... Vatican City is built upon volcanic rock. Rev 18: 8-9-18-19 Rec 19: 1-2-3
Are you of the opinion that Mystery Babylon is Islam or Mecca or, do you have an opinion on the subject? If God destroyed Vatican City "tomorrow" would you still hold to the opinion that the Church of Rome is NOT the great harlot church described in Revelation?
|
|
|
Post by venge on Sept 30, 2018 13:32:00 GMT -6
Venge ... you asked for scripture regarding God's destruction of a kingdom or nation or city or church etc..
That would be found in Rev 17:5 (Mystery Babylon) and 9 where it states ... and here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. Who has not heard of Rome ... the City On Seven Hills?
I am sure you are aware of Protestant history and how they suffered at the hands of Romanism, such as the massacre of Protestants in France.
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. Rev 17:6.
The destruction of that great city will be an ever burning witness to the world. Hint ... Vatican City is built upon volcanic rock. Rev 18: 8-9-18-19 Rec 19: 1-2-3
Are you of the opinion that Mystery Babylon is Islam or Mecca or, do you have an opinion on the subject? If God destroyed Vatican City "tomorrow" would you still hold to the opinion that the Church of Rome is NOT the great harlot church described in Revelation?
Canada, The reading is from Rev 17: and it reads: Mountains, not hills. Now, what are mountains? They are not literal mountains because the 7 heads sit on them just as the women is not literal. The 7 mountains are also 7 kings and one that "is" when John wrote Revelation was the leader of Rome but the 7 others were not of Rome. Through scripture, mountains were identified as capitol cities of their kingdoms. Ancient Babylon was a mountain and Nebuchadnezzar was the king. Samaria and Jerusalem were mountains and each had its own king. Ninevah was a mountain of the Assyrian empire. This is why each mountain was part of a kingdom and each mountain was also a king that lead it. The final mountain will be the capitol of the 4th kingdom and the king of that mountain is also the 8th king, the Antichrist. If Vatican city is built on volcanic rock, that still does not show scripturally that is the Vatican. I am sorry but I still don't see it. I am not of the opinion that Babylon is Mecca. It could be, that is possible but I don't think that way atm. My opinion leads me to believe it is Jerusalem. You said: That would cause me to look as it would anyone but I don't see the Vatican fulfilling scripture that way. How much of the Vatican is a trading partner with the world? Does the Vatican hold so much wealth from trade that if it were to be destroyed the world would weep because the world depends on the Vatican to support all its need through Tvs, Fridges, spices, clothing, people to work, cars, jewels, watches, livestock etc.... I don't see that. Does the Vatican hold 20, 30 or 40% of the worlds wealth? Nope. Does the Vatican support a religion that believes in a god of fortresses to conquer and expand? Nope. Of course all religions hope to expand but conquer? Remember, were talking about the Vatican, not a religion. The Vatican is not a city that is reminiscence of ancient Babylon. Babylon was a capitol city of a kingdom that ruled over everyone else. The Vatican doesn't do that. Ancient Babylon how power over people through force. The Vatican does not. Perhaps in 100 years that will change but right now and in the last 100 years that hasn't been the case.
|
|
|
Post by canada on Sept 30, 2018 13:55:46 GMT -6
Venge ... you asked for scripture regarding God's destruction of a kingdom or nation or city or church etc..
That would be found in Rev 17:5 (Mystery Babylon) and 9 where it states ... and here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. Who has not heard of Rome ... the City On Seven Hills?
I am sure you are aware of Protestant history and how they suffered at the hands of Romanism, such as the massacre of Protestants in France.
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. Rev 17:6.
The destruction of that great city will be an ever burning witness to the world. Hint ... Vatican City is built upon volcanic rock. Rev 18: 8-9-18-19 Rec 19: 1-2-3
Are you of the opinion that Mystery Babylon is Islam or Mecca or, do you have an opinion on the subject? If God destroyed Vatican City "tomorrow" would you still hold to the opinion that the Church of Rome is NOT the great harlot church described in Revelation?
Canada, The reading is from Rev 17: and it reads: Mountains, not hills. Now, what are mountains? They are not literal mountains because the 7 heads sit on them just as the women is not literal. The 7 mountains are also 7 kings and one that "is" when John wrote Revelation was the leader of Rome but the 7 others were not of Rome. Through scripture, mountains were identified as capitol cities of their kingdoms. Ancient Babylon was a mountain and Nebuchadnezzar was the king. Samaria and Jerusalem were mountains and each had its own king. Ninevah was a mountain of the Assyrian empire. This is why each mountain was part of a kingdom and each mountain was also a king that lead it. The final mountain will be the capitol of the 4th kingdom and the king of that mountain is also the 8th king, the Antichrist. If Vatican city is built on volcanic rock, that still does not show scripturally that is the Vatican. I am sorry but I still don't see it. I am not of the opinion that Babylon is Mecca. It could be, that is possible but I don't think that way atm. My opinion leads me to believe it is Jerusalem. You said: That would cause me to look as it would anyone but I don't see the Vatican fulfilling scripture that way. How much of the Vatican is a trading partner with the world? Does the Vatican hold so much wealth from trade that if it were to be destroyed the world would weep because the world depends on the Vatican to support all its need through Tvs, Fridges, spices, clothing, people to work, cars, jewels, watches, livestock etc.... I don't see that. Does the Vatican hold 20, 30 or 40% of the worlds wealth? Nope. Does the Vatican support a religion that believes in a god of fortresses to conquer and expand? Nope. Of course all religions hope to expand but conquer? Remember, were talking about the Vatican, not a religion. The Vatican is not a city that is reminiscence of ancient Babylon. Babylon was a capitol city of a kingdom that ruled over everyone else. The Vatican doesn't do that. Ancient Babylon how power over people through force. The Vatican does not. Perhaps in 100 years that will change but right now and in the last 100 years that hasn't been the case.
|
|