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Post by canada on Sept 30, 2018 14:10:41 GMT -6
From what you have stated, I would conclude that it would be your opinion that the great Protestant theologians such as, EB Elliott, Guinness, Sir Isaac Newton, Spurgeon etc. were all wrong regarding the Church of Rome.
Mountains not hills ... hmm
Venge ... there are four "systems" for the interpretation of Revelation. Full Preterism (heretical) ... Partial Preterism ... Historicism ... Futurism ... Idealism.
Are you a Protestant and what "system" do you hold to regarding Revelation? I attend both Alliance Church and Reformed ... both of which originally were historicist.
So very far has Protestantism strayed from its roots!
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Post by venge on Sept 30, 2018 18:00:40 GMT -6
From what you have stated, I would conclude that it would be your opinion that the great Protestant theologians such as, EB Elliott, Guinness, Sir Isaac Newton, Spurgeon etc. were all wrong regarding the Church of Rome.
Mountains not hills ... hmm
Venge ... there are four "systems" for the interpretation of Revelation. Full Preterism (heretical) ... Partial Preterism ... Historicism ... Futurism ... Idealism.
Are you a Protestant and what "system" do you hold to regarding Revelation? I attend both Alliance Church and Reformed ... both of which originally were historicist.
So very far has Protestantism strayed from its roots!
I believe Revelation is prophecy making it future and not fulfilled yet. The men you posted Offered their own interpretation as do people today. To suggest anyone other then men of renown may have less than acceptable interpretations is not good. Knowledge is increased right? My church holds to a Future Roman AC but I do not. I belong to an independent fundamental baptist church that strongly believe in witnessing and missionary work. Their core beliefs are my own and I find them to be true to the word of God in everything that is Christ centered. On prophecy, which is not key to oneself, I disagree with them as do I with 90% of churches lol. Most teach the same thing following commentaries of others and taking a literal interpretation of it. I don’t. That’s not to say not literal in the sense of it happening, but the way it happens. An example: I don’t believe in literal locusts with women’s hair but I do believe they represent what the Bible says. Wicked men that are a shame to God and punish people with falsehood in their tails.
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Post by canada on Sept 30, 2018 20:16:31 GMT -6
Venge ... you said: "I believe Revelation is prophecy, meaning it is future and not fulfilled yet."
Of the 4 systems, that makes you a futurist.
I have been studying Revelation for 40 years. I was actually interested in this book before I was born again and baptized! I was a futurist for the first ten years but became an historicist as I believe they are closer to the truth.
My son-in-grace pastored a very conservative Reformed church in the USA and they are partial preterist.
It was Sir Isaac Newton who said ... we are not to become prophets, but to recognize the event when it comes to pass.
Whereas futurists attempt to tell us what is "going to happen". As long as what they say has not come to pass, how can they be proven wrong?
PS ... when discussing Rev 13:18 I prefer to use the terms first beast and/or second beast, as there are many "antichrists" and I find that can lead down many rabbit trails.
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Post by venge on Oct 1, 2018 3:12:49 GMT -6
Venge ... you said: "I believe Revelation is prophecy, meaning it is future and not fulfilled yet."
Of the 4 systems, that makes you a futurist.
I have been studying Revelation for 40 years. I was actually interested in this book before I was born again and baptized! I was a futurist for the first ten years but became an historicist as I believe they are closer to the truth.
My son-in-grace pastored a very conservative Reformed church in the USA and they are partial preterist.
It was Sir Isaac Newton who said ... we are not to become prophets, but to recognize the event when it comes to pass.
Whereas futurists attempt to tell us what is "going to happen". As long as what they say has not come to pass, how can they be proven wrong?
PS ... when discussing Rev 13:18 I prefer to use the terms first beast and/or second beast, as there are many "antichrists" and I find that can lead down many rabbit trails.
Canada, It may have been Isaac Newton who said that, but Christ said it before him. Christ told us to watch for these things. In regards to Revelation, I use the terms given in the text. 1. Beast of the sea 2. Beast of the earth I only find 1 Antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition. Lastly, I don’t categorize myself into one of the systems you put forth. Christ said it was future of him, John wrote Revelation between 80-93 AD after the destruction of Jerusalem. We are not living in a millennium kingdom now nor has anyone seen Christ descend. There wasn’t Armageddon and no where on earth are the bowls described. I don’t want to get off track from the OP of the mark. But I’ll say this, we must, as proper stewards of God’s word, diligently pray for guidance and not let the world lead us in understanding but scripture and the HS alone. If text doesn’t say something, we don’t add to it. If the text describes something, we don’t add to it.
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Post by canada on Oct 1, 2018 17:56:46 GMT -6
Venge, you said ... "The men you (canada) posted offered their own interpretation as do people today. To suggest anyone other than men of renown may be less than acceptable interpretations is not good. Knowledge is increased right?"
Venge ... are there any men of renown past or present that you agree with and who might they be regarding the mark and number ... or, do you rely upon scripture only and your personal interpretation of those passages?
On another subject regarding the Vatican, you asked (in part) how much of the Vatican is a trading partner with the world? Does the Vatican hold 20, 30 or 40% of the worlds wealth? Nope.
I cannot confirm this, but from another website, it noted that they (Church of Rome) through its priests and popes are ruler and head of about 1.6 billion subservient people on the face of the earth, which would include kings, prime ministers, other heads of state and CEOs etc... which in effect would be involved in trading with the world.
Regarding its wealth, this site stated.. With their assets, money, global property, structures and cathedrals, Jerusalem holdings, historical artifacts and investments ... they have more wealth than most nations on earth.
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Post by mike on Oct 1, 2018 18:52:15 GMT -6
From what you have stated, I would conclude that it would be your opinion that the great Protestant theologians such as, EB Elliott, Guinness, Sir Isaac Newton, Spurgeon etc. were all wrong regarding the Church of Rome.
Mountains not hills ... hmm
Venge ... there are four "systems" for the interpretation of Revelation. Full Preterism (heretical) ... Partial Preterism ... Historicism ... Futurism ... Idealism.
Are you a Protestant and what "system" do you hold to regarding Revelation? I attend both Alliance Church and Reformed ... both of which originally were historicist.
So very far has Protestantism strayed from its roots!
Ya know as I'm reading through this and start to think "which category am I?" and immediately come to mind "what do you win?". What is it I gain by falling into one of these? I began to realize that of the Vatican is the Beast or the Pope the AC or the 12th Imam, or Aliens or CERN whatever, whoever is right or wrong doesn't really matter once all is revealed. I love trying to figure this out as we watch certain events all falling into place, yet none of it will matter when He descends with a shout!
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Post by canada on Oct 1, 2018 19:26:04 GMT -6
True Mike, it makes little difference to us that are saved, but "IF" the papacy is one of the beasts of Rev 13, it surely makes a difference to those within Romanism ... as I think most here would agree that all those that follow the beast would be lost.
As for using those terms ... it just saves serious students of the Book of Revelation a lot of time when conversing with others. If he says he is a full preterist or partial preterist he likely believes that Nero was the 666 beast. If he says he is an historicist he likely believes the papacy is the beast and the RCC is the great harlot church. If he says he is a futurist ... that can take many different directions.
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Post by venge on Oct 2, 2018 10:02:50 GMT -6
True Mike, it makes little difference to us that are saved, but "IF" the papacy is one of the beasts of Rev 13, it surely makes a difference to those within Romanism ... as I think most here would agree that all those that follow the beast would be lost.
As for using those terms ... it just saves serious students of the Book of Revelation a lot of time when conversing with others. If he says he is a full preterist or partial preterist he likely believes that Nero was the 666 beast. If he says he is an historicist he likely believes the papacy is the beast and the RCC is the great harlot church. If he says he is a futurist ... that can take many different directions. To answer your questions for me: I take scripture as my source. I do read some commentaries to see how others look at things, whether current ones or church fathers, but I use the Bible as my source and trust in the HS to lead me if it’s His will. That’s not to say I always hear Him. To avoid my own inclination, I search scripture to refute myself and I talk to others that I know to read what I believe I found. I try to do the best I can. In regards to how a person thinks, I don’t know who the man of sin will be. But I believe he is the beast of the earth. As I had written in previous pages, I believe his mark is spiritual and not a physical branding or microchip. I talked about this numerous assemblage of his kingdom and their fealty to him and not Christ.
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Post by canada on Oct 2, 2018 12:40:48 GMT -6
Venge ... well spoken ... the Word and the Holy Spirit ... makes you wonder why there are so many different interpretations.
In an earlier post I said I try to avoid using the term antichrist as it leads down many rabbit trails. To which you responded ... I only find 1 antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from this we know that it is the last hour.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (KJV)
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Post by venge on Oct 2, 2018 13:12:23 GMT -6
Venge ... well spoken ... the Word and the Holy Spirit ... makes you wonder why there are so many different interpretations.
In an earlier post I said I try to avoid using the term antichrist as it leads down many rabbit trails. To which you responded ... I only find 1 antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from this we know that it is the last hour.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (KJV)
Canada, I must correct you my friend... My original text stated Antichrist with a capitol A. There are many antichrists but I was referencing THE Antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition. But yes, there are many antichrists, but only 1 Antichrist.
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Post by canada on Oct 2, 2018 14:04:03 GMT -6
Venge ... well spoken ... the Word and the Holy Spirit ... makes you wonder why there are so many different interpretations.
In an earlier post I said I try to avoid using the term antichrist as it leads down many rabbit trails. To which you responded ... I only find 1 antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from this we know that it is the last hour.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (KJV)
Canada, I must correct you my friend... My original text stated Antichrist with a capitol A. There are many antichrists but I was referencing THE Antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition. But yes, there are many antichrists, but only 1 Antichrist.
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Post by canada on Oct 2, 2018 14:11:42 GMT -6
Venge ... would it be your opinion that The Antichrist, man of sin, son of perdition AND the beast from the earth are one and the same person, and are yet future?
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Post by venge on Oct 2, 2018 17:29:03 GMT -6
Venge ... would it be your opinion that The Antichrist, man of sin, son of perdition AND the beast from the earth are one and the same person, and are yet future? Yes sir. That is my opinion and I believe it is true to scripture. Daniel describes in each kingdom that comes from the sea, a king comes from the earth. This is in each stage. Just as the 7 heads of the beast are identified as kingdoms, not men, but the horns are identified as men to which the 11th horn OF the beast of the sea is the man of sin. He’s not a head OF the beast of the sea. He’s not the beast of the sea. He’s a horn on the beast of the sea that is the false prophet of the earth.
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Post by canada on Oct 2, 2018 17:54:52 GMT -6
Venge ... would it be your opinion that The Antichrist, man of sin, son of perdition AND the beast from the earth are one and the same person, and are yet future? Yes sir. That is my opinion and I believe it is true to scripture. Daniel describes in each kingdom that comes from the sea, a king comes from the earth. This is in each stage. Just as the 7 heads of the beast are identified as kingdoms, not men, but the horns are identified as men to which the 11th horn OF the beast of the sea is the man of sin. He’s not a head OF the beast of the sea. He’s not the beast of the sea. He’s a horn on the beast of the sea that is the false prophet of the earth. Ah yes ... I forgot to add the false prophet ... he would be that "one from the earth" right? Regarding the 666 I believe you take that figuratively, but do you apply it to the beast from the sea or the earth?
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Post by venge on Oct 3, 2018 17:12:55 GMT -6
Yes sir. That is my opinion and I believe it is true to scripture. Daniel describes in each kingdom that comes from the sea, a king comes from the earth. This is in each stage. Just as the 7 heads of the beast are identified as kingdoms, not men, but the horns are identified as men to which the 11th horn OF the beast of the sea is the man of sin. He’s not a head OF the beast of the sea. He’s not the beast of the sea. He’s a horn on the beast of the sea that is the false prophet of the earth. Ah yes ... I forgot to add the false prophet ... he would be that "one from the earth" right? Regarding the 666 I believe you take that figuratively, but do you apply it to the beast from the sea or the earth?
The false prophet is identified as the beast of the earth. I take 666 to be a spiritual mark just as we are sealed with a spiritual mark with our faith by the Holy Ghost. The beast of the earth creates the mark and it is identified with the name/number of the beast of the sea. Whether the mark is worship or some other means I don't know, but I am sure it involves things contrary to God such as worship of another, money, protecting yourself and not others, everything against what Christ asked us to do. 1. Love one another vs love yourself 2. Feed the hungry vs don't 3. Clothe the naked vs don't 4. heal the sick vs don't 5. increase wealth for yourself 6. love the things of this world vs the things of heaven 7. faith vs unfaithful 8. a bridled tongue vs an unbridled tongue etc...……..
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