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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 31, 2017 12:59:30 GMT -6
stephen I know you have been following along in SK's thread on Restoration, so it is kinda fun to go back at some older threads now. Your statement above is my new year's resolution! Missusmack, I hope has been lurking as you had so much good stuff!...and to Sk for this thread, only the person davidjayjordan had an opposing view thus far. If there is only 1 period of 3.5 years, and it seems a couple of us are in agreement, how does this affect our understanding in other chapters of Revelation? How will we know if we are in the 3.5 years? or, who will know? am I being rhetorical? not on purpose, but is it having to do with the Abomination of Desolation? Did you mean Rev 12 here? I went and read Rev 21 again, and let me tell ya it has another whole bearing of meaning having come out of the Restoration/Kingdom of God threads by SK. And can you clarify which Israel these are? physical, modern, spiritual etc... Also has anyone felt that there should not be a chapter break between Rev 12 and Rev 13? I know this thread has to do with the question of 1 or 2 - 3.5 yr periods...if it is 1 period, where is this aligning to the tribulation period in general then (all the seals, trumpets and bowls)? I know I know, I just set a banquet table of topics, can someone link me to the discussion in the threads that discussed this (the knowledge or recognition of what is this 3.5 years) via a reply to this post? Is there another 3.5 year event mentioned in Revelation? If not, then is the whole tribulation then just 3.5 years?
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 16:14:34 GMT -6
I like this thought, stephan! Tell us more! I wish, I could.... It's a feeling deep in my guts, that even the endtime models are somehow converging.
The more, we start focussing on Jesus, the more we will understand and differences in our understanding will melt away.
I think, it has to do with the unity within the body of Christ.
Remember the prayer of our Lord in John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. I'd like to draw our attention back to this thread, as it seems to be pertinent to what I am proposing/wondering. I am not sure how to quote multiple people in one post, so I will make several posts quoting different people here and then show how I see it all fitting together. Please forgive the multiple posts! |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 16:30:40 GMT -6
I've always assumed that when we've said "the woman is Israel" and "the woman, Israel, flees into the wilderness" that this is BELIEVING ISRAEL—those members of all the tribes of Israel who come to saving faith in Yeshua as Messiah during the "time of Jacob's trouble." So NOT Israel as a nation, but only the believing remnant. I think they must be believers before they flee because Jesus warns in the gospel texts that "whoever is in Judea and sees the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place to flee into the wilderness." It is NOT currently common practice for Jews to read the New Testament or have any concept of what Jesus actually said unless they are believers in Him. I doubt this will change during the Trib except by those who are searching and then they will recognize their error and believe in Him. So... only those who know Jesus' words will know to flee.
That being said, Zion to me means a group of people who worship God/Jesus in Spirit and in Truth, who are marked and sealed by Him, but who also physically belong in Jerusalem. So Zion is both spiritual and physical. The Church fulfills the spiritual aspect of it, but living (mortal) Israelite believers will fulfill the physical aspect during the Millenium. Jesus will reign from Jerusalem and be served by His people who are made up of His earthly chosen people (Israel). The rest of the Church will rule and reign with Him everywhere else on the Earth.
Back to the original question... I only see reference to one set of 3.5 years in Rev 12. The other 3.5 years (the first 1/2 of 70th week) is implied by combining the references to the woman/remnant fleeing into the wilderness. In Daniel, the AoD occurs "in the middle of the week." As mentioned in Matt and Mark, Jesus tells people to flee when they see it. This implies there is a period of time constituting a "half" that precedes the woman/remannt fleeing. This beginning "half of the week" seems to coincide with the testimony of the two witnesses mentioned later in Rev because if their 1260 day testimony is at the same time as when the woman is being nourished in the wilderness, then their death and resurrection overlaps with the assumed timing of the Great Winepress, and doesn't quite make sense, timing-wise.
edit: I should add that AFTER the Millenium, that Zion will include everyone who ever believed in Jesus. This really is a mystery and I don't think we're going to really "get it" until after we receive immortal bodies. Even then, we may still be discovering exactly what it means. Wow. Lots of stuff here. Where did you go MissusMack08? I don't think we've met and I would like to hear your thoughts! My summary of the above: 1) The only people who would know to flee are the people who read Jesus' words. 2) Zion is both spiritual and physical. The physical is split into 2 groups (for now)... those in Israel and those in the nations. 3) Everything we believe about the end time model hinges on Daniel 9:27. Let #3 sink in for a moment. Everything we believe about how this is going to work hinges on the pronoun "he". This is one of the most difficult verses in all of the Bible... is there a chance we have been reading it wrong? IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THIS YET, PLEASE READ IT!!!!
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 16:34:54 GMT -6
Well, if any of us is right on the timing of 'whatever it is', then the dispensation of grace is about to change to something different. That could be the feeling you, myself, and I'm sure others are feeling. Buckle up kiddies, cause it's Gna get wild. We have to remember that the dispensation between the law and grace wasn't just a one day quick change, it was a process. Major prophecies are being fulfilled, and with that, the perceptions of reality by everyone everywhere are being shifted.
Like Stephan stated, keep seeking Jesus and we'll soon understand! And as always, Maranatha and Maranatha! Remember how back in October we were all questioning our pre-conceived ideas about how this is all going to work? We all realized we needed to think outside the box so to speak. Where are we now? Has our perception of reality shifted since October? Should it shift? |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 16:46:09 GMT -6
I like this as a hypothesis; however, what is your take on the woman (if Zion) from Rev 12 fleeing to the wilderness? Where was she before? If she is fleeing to heaven (harpazo) wouldn't that be a bit redundant? Pls help me out here. Right now Zion is being fed and nourished moment by moment by the believers. The kingdom of God is growing all the time. But once Emmanuel is born and caught up to the throne and satan is cast down to earth, Zion will go into hiding. Zion is not a group of people. Zion is a belief system. The true belief system. Her going to the wilderness symbolizes the truth going into "hiding" but not being destroyed. The truth hides for a short time as darkness permeates the Earth. Satan tries to kill the true belief system. But she cannot die, so eventually he gives up and goes after the rest of her children: people who walk according to that truth. He can kill off the flesh, but Zion lives on and eventually makes herself ready for her groom. The wilderness is a picture - it is not a real group of people going to Pella or any other wilderness shelter. If one ponders for a bit, it would become clear that only a small group of people would be able to flee to the wilderness: the ones that are alive during the tribulation age. That group of people could not possibly give birth to Emmanuel (or the son's of God). No the woman is much more significant. After all, how could those that flee to the wilderness have given birth to the one that was caught up before they flee? Wouldn't they have been also caught up, if the woman was a group of believers? If she was a group of non-believers, how could she give birth to the son(s) of God? She is not a group of people. I don't agree with much of dispensationalism, particularly the idea that the Spirit is removed from the earth during the tribulation, I do not believe that Grace only holds for an age, but rather for all ages. But, for those who do teach this, they could look at Zion going into hiding as coinciding with the Spirit being removed. EDIT: I should note here - I do not have this all figured out. It is a fairly new consideration on my part and I am seeing a lot of scriptural (and common sense) support for it. I think most of us here love and respect SK even though some of his views were quite different from our own. I saw a lot of truth in some of the things he said, and I disagreed with others. I think he saw some valid holes in our theory and in an attempt to shore up those holes created some new ones. But look at what I have bolded above. My summary: 1) If people flee in the middle of the tribulation, this would be a very small group of people 2) The woman who gives birth is the same woman who flees. How in the world does that make sense if Israel flees after the child is born? 3) If the woman who flees is a group of believers, she also would be caught up |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 16:47:58 GMT -6
I agree Stephan - Amen! I am giving one level of interpretation that is not common. I am not trying to define the entirety of Rev 12. I agree MissusMack08 - This scripture actually confirms the identity of the woman as Zion. Which is what I have been saying. All believers are part of the children of Zion. So certainly, those who become believers during the tribulation are also children of Zion. But they are not Zion. That is why they are called, "the remnant of her offspring."
But now we have completely departed from the thread subject - and actually, it seems the thread has run its course - no one has presented a argument that supports Rev 12 talking about 2 different 3.5 year periods. If Israel flees in the middle of the tribulation, these people would be considered "the remnant of her offspring". |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 16:54:43 GMT -6
I like this as a hypothesis; however, what is your take on the woman (if Zion) from Rev 12 fleeing to the wilderness? Where was she before? If she is fleeing to heaven (harpazo) wouldn't that be a bit redundant? Pls help me out here.
Satan tries to kill the true belief system. But she cannot die, so eventually he gives up and goes after the rest of her children: people who walk according to that truth. He can kill off the flesh, but Zion lives on and eventually makes herself ready for her groom. The wilderness is a picture - it is not a real group of people going to Pella or any other wilderness shelter. If one ponders for a bit, it would become clear that only a small group of people would be able to flee to the wilderness: the ones that are alive during the tribulation age. That group of people could not possibly give birth to Emmanuel (or the son's of God). No the woman is much more significant. After all, how could those that flee to the wilderness have given birth to the one that was caught up before they flee? Wouldn't they have been also caught up, if the woman was a group of believers? If she was a group of non-believers, how could she give birth to the son(s) of God? She is not a group of people. I don't agree with much of dispensationalism, particularly the idea that the Spirit is removed from the earth during the tribulation, I do not believe that Grace only holds for an age, but rather for all ages. But, for those who do teach this, they could look at Zion going into hiding as coinciding with the Spirit being removed. EDIT: I should note here - I do not have this all figured out. It is a fairly new consideration on my part and I am seeing a lot of scriptural (and common sense) support for it. This coincides exactly with what I am saying that God will remove the "daily" FOR half the week after he confirms His covenant with Israel. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 17:11:59 GMT -6
I think I have quoted enough that everyone gets my gist. All of the questions we've had about how this will all work can be answered if we shift our thinking regarding the timeline, Daniel 9:27, and what the abomination is. We all agree that only half of the week is portrayed here in Revelation 12, yet it seems to be an outline of the entire tribulation. The logical conclusion of this is that the entire tribulation is not a full 7 years. I have gone back to this idea multiple times over the last several months, and I throw it out every time because of the 7 years between the 2 eclipses. But I feel like that is a poor reason to cling to a model, especially since Jesus said He will cut the time short. Also, I think it was disciple4life who pointed out that the witnesses are dead for 3 1/2 days and that might be a clue. And here is the grand finale friends... what if the entire tribulation is only the 1335 days spoken of in Daniel? GUESS WHEN THE 1335 DAYS WOULD END IF THE TRIBULATION BEGINS ON FEBRUARY 1?
SHIMINI ATZERET 2021!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 0:26:06 GMT -6
Pretty interesting stuff (and conclusion by witness1 )... This is similar to how I see things happen today. Yes it is hard to see (spriritual) world views being shattered or questioned, and we should not jump on every bandwagon, but we are exhorted to test everything against scripture. To throw in one more wild thought: What about, if the 70th week started with Jesus' ministry, then stopped with Golgatha (first half) and will be fulfilled and completed with the soon to be started second half, Rev speaks of. This would mean, we had another (enhanced) gap theory, with a gap right in the middle of the 70th week. Thoughts? I again want to second the dual interpretation of prophecies, events, the Temple, Israel, and many more. Spiritual as well as right here visible on earth, fulfilling in Jerusalem, Israel and so on. Israel and many figures, situations served as a picture, as a type, but they were also real. Why should this be different today (in the endtimes)? Has God changed His course of action? I don't think so. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 31, 2018 0:50:39 GMT -6
Very interesting idea. I have been contemplating the 3 years of ministry, Paul’s 3 year preparation for ministry, and that I believe the purpose of the wilderness is a time of preparation for the 144,000. Couldn’t figure out what that all meant but felt it related somehow. Check out Isaiah 61
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; - Isaiah 61:1-2
This confirms your idea. The “Spirit of the Lord and anointing” began with His baptism. Then He is “cut off” after proclaiming the year of our Lord’s favor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 4:19:36 GMT -6
Very interesting idea. I have been contemplating the 3 years of ministry, Paul’s 3 year preparation for ministry, and that I believe the purpose of the wilderness is a time of preparation for the 144,000. Couldn’t figure out what that all meant but felt it related somehow. Check out Isaiah 61 1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; - Isaiah 61:1-2 This confirms your idea. The “Spirit of the Lord and anointing” began with His baptism. Then He is “cut off” after proclaiming the year of our Lord’s favor. The "gap"-theory is further reinforced by Jesus himself. Remember, when Jesus cited the above scripture, he stopped right in the middle of verse 2 after the first comma and closed the book: The day of vengeance (part of the tribulation?) was (is?) still future. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 31, 2018 6:48:43 GMT -6
Yes that’s what I'm saying... He cut off in the middle of the verse. It’s almost like God has a sense of humor or something 😊
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2018 7:38:36 GMT -6
Pretty interesting stuff (and conclusion by witness1 )... This is similar to how I see things happen today. Yes it is hard to see (spriritual) world views being shattered or questioned, and we should not jump on every bandwagon, but we are exhorted to test everything against scripture. To throw in one more wild thought: What about, if the 70th week started with Jesus' ministry, then stopped with Golgatha (first half) and will be fulfilled and completed with the soon to be started second half, Rev speaks of. This would mean, we had another (enhanced) gap theory, with a gap right in the middle of the 70th week. Thoughts? I again want to second the dual interpretation of prophecies, events, the Temple, Israel, and many more.
Spiritual as well as right here visible on earth, fulfilling in Jerusalem, Israel and so on.Israel and many figures, situations served as a picture, as a type, but they were also real. Why should this be different today (in the endtimes)? Has God changed His course of action? I don't think so. Isnt there a battle raging for physical Israel? Isnt there a battle raging over spiritual Israel? Hmmmm.... Also witness1 - thanks for making us (or at least) me continue to think about things. While I'm a bit worn out trying to figure out how things will play out, and have decided to watch and observe (as we are told to do) I am fascinated learning and growing with my brothers and sisters. I do appreciate you all! MissusMack08 is here catching up on things after a bit of a hiatus. I'm sure she'll pop in soon  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 8:05:39 GMT -6
Yes that’s what I'm saying... He cut off in the middle of the verse. It’s almost like God has a sense of humor or something 😊 Yep, just want to make that point crystal clear for even not so quick and brilliant minds like me....  |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 31, 2018 8:49:44 GMT -6
Ah yes. I didn't explain that very well. Thank you for communicating the connection! I am grateful for you all looking at and discussing these ideas even though we're tired.
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