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Post by sesquipedalian on Oct 4, 2017 23:30:58 GMT -6
At what point does Revelation 12 transition from describing the signs in the heavens to describing what occurs on Earth? There is a curious merging of the two and the demarcation isn't explicit. I think we can say that verse six is exclusively describing real-world events, since it's hard to imagine the constellation Virgo pulling chocks and fleeing somewhere. Similarly, it seems clear that verse one exclusively describes the sign. I was wondering whether the "catching up" could be represented by the signs somehow, but the movement of the planets is extremely regular, and there doesn't seem to be any way to represent Jupiter suddenly escaping from the sign of the dragon. But then I wondered: what if the planet Jupiter actually disappeared?This would quickly establish two things: 1) a heavenly representation of the "catching away", mirroring the Rapture on Earth, and 2) independent confirmation that whatever just happened on Earth wasn't specific to our planet, because we have a great honking gas giant that disappeared along with all the people here. The Juno spacecraft is currently orbiting Jupiter, so it would be able to confirm the phenomenon up close. But the most interesting thing that would happen is a global earthquake on Earth, because the gravitational influence of Jupiter would disappear like a rubber band being cut. Plugging in the mass of Jupiter and its current distance from Earth, this would produce an acceleration of .1385 m/s^2, or about .014 of one standard Earth gravity. (The distance and hence the acceleration would be slightly different in a week, but this is a good approximation.) This corresponds to a Class IV shaking on the Mercalli intensity scale: light, noticeable, but not causing damage. (I was kinda hoping this would provide a solution to the Sixth Seal earthquake, but if I did my calculations correctly, it's not strong enough to qualify. Unless this one-time jolt somehow triggers all the fault lines at once.) There would not be any danger of the planets' orbits being disrupted; the absence of Jupiter would make a big difference over several million years, but seven years is nothing in this regard. However, the Jupiter Trojan Asteroids would be released from their Lagrange holding points and would be free to wreak merry havoc throughout the solar system. Over the course of weeks, months, or years, the asteroids could cross the orbits of all the inner planets. (Someone would need to run a simulation to determine whether any planets would actually be hit.) If the moons of Jupiter didn't also vanish, they would cause an even bigger mess. Imagine the planet Mercury slingshotting around the inner solar system. Since Jupiter exerts tidal effects on the sun, the absence of Jupiter would also affect the 11-year solar cycle, though I'm not sure to what extent. (There is a theory that the cycle is controlled by Venus, Earth, and Jupiter lining up in a row, which happens once every 11.07 years.) I present this as a thought experiment for your entertainment. Take with a massive grain of salt.  |
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Oct 5, 2017 7:53:36 GMT -6
It would most certainly fit with the restrainer being taking ou of the way. Jupiter is 'restraining' those asteroids and it's moons.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 9:50:55 GMT -6
sesqui, I think that is a great question, and is one I have wrestled with also....! I don't know the answer for sure, but I agree with you that it would be difficult for Virgo to saddle up and head for the wilderness.......I thought it may be a reference to the relative lack of any significant sign in Virgo for the 7 years after Jupiter leaves, as it heads to Taurus over that period....hence, there is no significant planetary action in Virgo as we trace Jupiter through Libra, Sagittarius, Capricorn etc all the way to Taurus over the 7 year period, and maybe Virgo is off in the wilderness so to speak....don't know if this is accurate as an explanation or not, but was the best I could come up with!
As far as Jupiter being snatched to the throne after birth, there is a possible celestial representation of the event....after Jupiter leaves Virgo, it heads straight into Libra, the scales of justice.....and some have suggested that Libra also could represent the throne of God, so Jupiter heads to the Throne if this is true....I could not find anything definitive however which explains Libra as the Throne of God......just a thought!
Thanks for the question, I am interested in any further ideas!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 12:19:26 GMT -6
Great explanation for Libra
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 12:37:46 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Oct 5, 2017 12:43:38 GMT -6
Definitely tin foil hat territory. In your theory what would cause Jupiter to disappear? Just like the church, Jupiter is caught up, super-naturally? That's it just poof?
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Post by yardstick on Oct 5, 2017 14:04:59 GMT -6
Would be interesting to see something 'occlude' Jupiter (celestially speaking), making it disappear for a while.
But we may be outta here before that occurs.
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Post by sesquipedalian on Oct 5, 2017 21:18:38 GMT -6
Definitely tin foil hat territory. In your theory what would cause Jupiter to disappear? Just like the church, Jupiter is caught up, super-naturally? That's it just poof? Yup, just poof. Leaving behind an earthquake when it disappears, and causing another earthquake seven years later when it comes back. Just, as I said, a thought experiment. |
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Post by whatif on Oct 6, 2017 13:15:51 GMT -6
I would love to see you create an entry for the fashion show, stephan! Design something fun for us! |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 6, 2017 13:19:28 GMT -6
This is along the lines of Jaco Prinsloo's "God's Roadmap to the End" series. He thought Jupiter would be collided with by a rogue planet it our system that would cause all the asteroid chaos and explain the other phenomena described in Revelation. He thought the collision would occur when Jupiter exited "the womb" of Virgo around Sept 9. Obviously that didn't happen. There could still be something inbound that could collide with it OR as I speculated (probably in the "God's Roadmap to the End Discussion" thread) that a rogue planet could simply occlude Jupiter, giving it the appearance of having disappeared from our perspective. It would still cause the effects on earth and likely have debris traveling with it that could cause asteroids hitting the earth. However, until something like that actually happens, it's all tin-foil-hat-wearing.
What's interesting to note is in Revelation you have 4 verses that describe 2 signs. 2 verses for each sign. After those two verses, the narrative goes back to the characters in the first sign and some action and then on to the characters in the second Sign and some action regarding them. It's possible that only the first 4 verses actually describe the Signs in the heavens. The rest is further expounding on the underlying story and symbolic meanings. Otherwise, why was it written in this way? Why is it broken up so? Maybe to help us distinguish between the literal signs and the accompanying symbolism?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 2:20:52 GMT -6
I would love to see you create an entry for the fashion show, stephan! Design something fun for us! U wish!  Sure, I'm not qualified for that selected circle....LOL |
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andrew
Layman
Still here...till the end.
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Post by andrew on Oct 7, 2017 7:31:00 GMT -6
At what point does Revelation 12 transition from describing the signs in the heavens to describing what occurs on Earth? There is a curious merging of the two and the demarcation isn't explicit. I think we can say that verse six is exclusively describing real-world events, since it's hard to imagine the constellation Virgo pulling chocks and fleeing somewhere. Similarly, it seems clear that verse one exclusively describes the sign. I was wondering whether the "catching up" could be represented by the signs somehow, but the movement of the planets is extremely regular, and there doesn't seem to be any way to represent Jupiter suddenly escaping from the sign of the dragon. But then I wondered: what if the planet Jupiter actually disappeared?This would quickly establish two things: 1) a heavenly representation of the "catching away", mirroring the Rapture on Earth, and 2) independent confirmation that whatever just happened on Earth wasn't specific to our planet, because we have a great honking gas giant that disappeared along with all the people here. The Juno spacecraft is currently orbiting Jupiter, so it would be able to confirm the phenomenon up close. But the most interesting thing that would happen is a global earthquake on Earth, because the gravitational influence of Jupiter would disappear like a rubber band being cut. Plugging in the mass of Jupiter and its current distance from Earth, this would produce an acceleration of .1385 m/s^2, or about .014 of one standard Earth gravity. (The distance and hence the acceleration would be slightly different in a week, but this is a good approximation.) This corresponds to a Class IV shaking on the Mercalli intensity scale: light, noticeable, but not causing damage. (I was kinda hoping this would provide a solution to the Sixth Seal earthquake, but if I did my calculations correctly, it's not strong enough to qualify. Unless this one-time jolt somehow triggers all the fault lines at once.) There would not be any danger of the planets' orbits being disrupted; the absence of Jupiter would make a big difference over several million years, but seven years is nothing in this regard. However, the Jupiter Trojan Asteroids would be released from their Lagrange holding points and would be free to wreak merry havoc throughout the solar system. Over the course of weeks, months, or years, the asteroids could cross the orbits of all the inner planets. (Someone would need to run a simulation to determine whether any planets would actually be hit.) If the moons of Jupiter didn't also vanish, they would cause an even bigger mess. Imagine the planet Mercury slingshotting around the inner solar system. Since Jupiter exerts tidal effects on the sun, the absence of Jupiter would also affect the 11-year solar cycle, though I'm not sure to what extent. (There is a theory that the cycle is controlled by Venus, Earth, and Jupiter lining up in a row, which happens once every 11.07 years.) I present this as a thought experiment for your entertainment. Take with a massive grain of salt. You assume that wandering stars have an orbit. Remember...science, falsely so called, is not our friend. If one accepts, without question, what one is told by NASA, one accepts, without question, the lies of literal Nazis and Satanists. If ever there has existed an organization Christians should be wary of, that's it. Please, hold back on the ranting and raving about conspiracy theories or whatever and consider why some topics, like geocentism and the rapture make people so angry. Ever wonder how a third of the stars fall to earth? Is God a liar, or is NASA? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 10:34:16 GMT -6
andrew , please expound. Being an astronomy buff I am always curious how people with your, somewhat veiled, position justify their theories. I am asking to learn, not to critique. Thanks.
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Post by sesquipedalian on Oct 7, 2017 12:12:00 GMT -6
You assume that wandering stars have an orbit. Remember...science, falsely so called, is not our friend. If one accepts, without question, what one is told by NASA, one accepts, without question, the lies of literal Nazis and Satanists. If ever there has existed an organization Christians should be wary of, that's it. Please, hold back on the ranting and raving about conspiracy theories or whatever and consider why some topics, like geocentism and the rapture make people so angry. Ever wonder how a third of the stars fall to earth? Is God a liar, or is NASA? You are out of line, sir. Take your posturing and your hostility elsewhere. Nowhere did I advocate accepting anything without question; I didn't even mention NASA at all. (On the list of organizations Christians should be wary of, there are plenty that come before NASA.) This is, as I made clear several times, a thought experiment. If anyone is ranting and raving here, it is you. Do not put words in my mouth and do not throw accusations around so freely. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 13:15:06 GMT -6
sesquipedalian, I believe andrew was simply trying to head off any future ranting and raving when it became apparent he was suggesting a geocentric system and near earth stars. I don't think he was referring to anything you had already said. Let's all keep cool heads and allow each other to express their ideas.
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