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Post by galen on Oct 3, 2017 1:00:33 GMT -6
The reasoning is straightforward, people will need to know the truth with all the competing theories and some want to be able to be there to proclaim it. Become a sacrificial hero. I don't think that's God's way. It would require a partial rapture which I don't believe in and I know is not the position of this site. Some will say "It's strictly for volunteers, God won't leave any Christian behind unless they request to be so." But the rapture seems to be about the whole body joining the head and without all its members the body is incomplete (1 Cor 12:14-26). It can also be argued that if any Christians are left behind then the church age is not finished. The biggest problem with the "volunteer" theory however is that those who are making that request are probably underestimating the severity of the tribulation. God will say "I know your heart and your burden. However you know not what you ask. I am not inflicting any tribulation on my children. You have served me faithfully and I am not going to let you face the horrors ahead. You're coming up here to safety. My wrath against you was completed at Calvary." Also what constitutes an offer to stay behind. One could be fickle, one day wanting to be a hero, the next day wanting God to rapture them right now. Also suppose God grants their request and they realise how much they underestimated the whole thing. Can they now call out "God I'm done. I didn't forsee these horrors. Take me now." Or kill themselves? I think anyone who went through any of the tribulation knowing they didn't have to would soon regret the choice. God is saving us from foolish decisions.
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Post by rt on Oct 3, 2017 7:35:58 GMT -6
I agree with you Galen, God will have Witnesses, that will at least in my opinion proclaim His truth when we are gone. He will have the 144,000 sealed Jews, He will also have the two witnesses and let us not forget, His word will still be here after we depart. We are told that we will not undergo any of God's wrath, not in this life or the next. There is no scriptural support whatsoever for the idea that we can volunteer to stay behind. I personally think that the rapture itself will serve as a huge witness to the authenticity of God's word. All those on the fence who have heard for years from their loved ones or in church or through media, about the rapture, will have the evidence of it when we are gone. I believe many will come to faith because of the rapture itself.
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james
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Post by james on Oct 3, 2017 8:40:27 GMT -6
It's not really something you get to decide. If you believe, you are raptured. If you don't you stay behind. There is no way to volunteer to stay behind because if you believe, you go. The 144,000 are who will be missionaries to those who remain, and they will be of Israel, not Christian.
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Post by mike on Oct 3, 2017 10:12:09 GMT -6
And there's this
Rev 14:6-7 - "and I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 11:05:36 GMT -6
So... to add a bump to this road for the fun of it. I think the word "hero" from above might not capture the heart of those who have felt a desire to submit to the Lord in this area.
"No greater love has a man than that he lay down his life for a friend." Some truly may not be called to stay behind. Some may be. Let me propose a few ways this could be true -
1. The two witnesses - lot's of speculation about who / what they are - but if they are indeed two living people at the time of the "rapture", then they will be "staying behind."
2. The 144,000 - lot's of speculation about who they are - but if they are indeed living people at the time of the "rapture", then they will be "staying behind."
3. The Remnant of the woman's offspring (Rev. 12:17) - who are they - once again, speculation, but at a minimum, they are believers and they are "staying behind."
We have focused so much attention on the man-child, that we have all but ignored the remnant of her offspring.
In this post, I am not putting forward any ideas as to who these three groups are - just bringing up that there are multiple ways that some believers could be left behind - that is without discussing a partial rapture. The important thing to see here is that no matter how confident someone is that they know who these groups are - that person still might be wrong, because without direct revelation from God - it cannot be known. It can be surmised, guessed, sought. But it cannot be known until God reveals it to someone or group of someones.
All of my cases are based on a pre-trib rapture - may not be true of a later rapture.
Another point -
To be left behind is not to be a hero. That idea is revolting and I assume it was just a word mentioned without really meaning it as I took it. To be left behind as a believer would be to serve with love as our Lord served us - unto death. Remember, how do they overcome? Blood of the Lamb, Word of their Testimony, Loved not their life unto death.
For some, the spirit is willing and the flesh will not stand in their way - for others the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak. The Lord will discern the heart and role for each of us.
* * *
Personal Note:
I hesitate to add this - but I deeply, more than all but one thing, want to sit at the feet of my savior. I am dying more and more inside each day with His delay. But, what do I desire even more than that? To be His light left behind - providing hope in a hopeless world - letting the world see a small amount of Him in me - until He takes me home. Will He count me worthy to serve him in this way? I doubt it. But I do hold it up to Him.
Of course I do not fully comprehend the terrors that will arise during this time period - but I am not afraid for my God has overcome the world. I know how the story ends.
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Post by galen on Oct 4, 2017 0:34:37 GMT -6
So... to add a bump to this road for the fun of it. I think the word "hero" from above might not capture the heart of those who have felt a desire to submit to the Lord in this area. "No greater love has a man than that he lay down his life for a friend." Some truly may not be called to stay behind. Some may be. Let me propose a few ways this could be true - 1. The two witnesses - lot's of speculation about who / what they are - but if they are indeed two living people at the time of the "rapture", then they will be "staying behind." 2. The 144,000 - lot's of speculation about who they are - but if they are indeed living people at the time of the "rapture", then they will be "staying behind." 3. The Remnant of the woman's offspring (Rev. 12:17) - who are they - once again, speculation, but at a minimum, they are believers and they are "staying behind." We have focused so much attention on the man-child, that we have all but ignored the remnant of her offspring. In this post, I am not putting forward any ideas as to who these three groups are - just bringing up that there are multiple ways that some believers could be left behind - that is without discussing a partial rapture. The important thing to see here is that no matter how confident someone is that they know who these groups are - that person still might be wrong, because without direct revelation from God - it cannot be known. It can be surmised, guessed, sought. But it cannot be known until God reveals it to someone or group of someones. All of my cases are based on a pre-trib rapture - may not be true of a later rapture. Another point -
To be left behind is not to be a hero. That idea is revolting and I assume it was just a word mentioned without really meaning it as I took it. To be left behind as a believer would be to serve with love as our Lord served us - unto death. Remember, how do they overcome? Blood of the Lamb, Word of their Testimony, Loved not their life unto death. For some, the spirit is willing and the flesh will not stand in their way - for others the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak. The Lord will discern the heart and role for each of us. * * * Personal Note:I hesitate to add this - but I deeply, more than all but one thing, want to sit at the feet of my savior. I am dying more and more inside each day with His delay. But, what do I desire even more than that? To be His light left behind - providing hope in a hopeless world - letting the world see a small amount of Him in me - until He takes me home. Will He count me worthy to serve him in this way? I doubt it. But I do hold it up to Him. Of course I do not fully comprehend the terrors that will arise during this time period - but I am not afraid for my God has overcome the world. I know how the story ends. Two witnesses-believed by most to be Elijah and either Moses or Enoch. Won't go into detail here, look it up from more knowledgeable sources if you want to know more. Otherwise they could be two people currently alive who are yet to be saved but who God has a special plan for. 144000-I believe are Jews as a plain reading suggests. The Holy Spirit departs the earth temporarily in the rapture and no saved believers are left. No one actually figures it out because there is no one left to tell them what has happened. Even those who are aware of the concept of the rapture, if they are "Christians" they would write it off else "why am I still here." Going off what some people think (not stating as fact) there are powerful organisations such as the UN and the RC church who have already figured out what's coming. They will be instantly ready with a convincing lie. Anyway I believe that after an initial judgement period (seals 1-6 with the reaction to seal 6 suggesting that no one is saved yet. They now actually briefly recognise that this is God's wrath but instead of repenting they want to hide. As did Adam and Eve). Then in the seventh seal the Holy Spirit returns to reveal the truth to the 144000 who were hiding just as everyone else was a moment ago. This is their moment of salvation. Women's offspring-probably some or all of those saved after the rapture. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 8:27:58 GMT -6
galen - technical note - when you quoted me you put your comments inside the quote box - this makes it look like your comments are part of my quote. Your comments should be outside the quote box. Thanks! You have offered your opinion about who these people groups are, and when those groups come to belief. And some of it you have backed up with the idea that "most agree." I have to tell you, "most agree" has never been a valid criteria within my belief systems. I have found that "most" are wrong a lot.  Anyway, I understand your position. I wasn't trying to identify who these groups are - I have my own opinions - but mine are no better than anyone else's and we simply need to admit that nobody knows. My point was that each of these groups seem to be believers. You can speculate about the spirit being removed, etc. But the truth is that we don't know when these groups became believers - it could be after the rapture, it could be before the rapture. Indeed, we do know that Moses, Enoch, and Elijah are already believers. So these three groups allow for the idea that believers will be around after the rapture and some may have been around prior to the rapture and were left behind. I am not trying to prove that people are left - I am simply stating that we don't know and there are ways that scripture could demonstrate that they are. They could be left because of a particular ministry that they are to accomplish: to evangelize, to comfort, to be a light, etc. For that matter, they could be left to care for a particular elder that will need their help. It is okay to hold to some beliefs lightly. As Christians, we often think that our exact beliefs are so important. Indeed they are almost worthless. The truth is - Nobody knows how this rapture thing is going to work, or when. Nobody knows where the Spirit will be, or when. Nobody knows who is taken and who is not and for what reasons .... and I'm okay with that. When the time comes for us to know - God will make sure we know. From my initial Post:
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 5, 2017 1:10:18 GMT -6
It's not really something you get to decide. If you believe, you are raptured. If you don't you stay behind. There is no way to volunteer to stay behind because if you believe, you go. The 144,000 are who will be missionaries to those who remain, and they will be of Israel, not Christian. Right on, James. You nailed it brother.
There are a lot of things that are speculation and conjecture regarding end times. Some things are not. ***Some of the most important principles of Biblical interpretation - Hermeneutics are - Look at What Else - What Other Passages talk about this - This is cross-referencing and/or 'Harmonizing scripture'.
- Look at the Context, - Grammatical context, literary genre context, and Historical context.
- Corinthians - Paul - Jewish writer, to Predominately Gentile church in Corinth- theme is correction of Carnal living - and 1/3 of the population were slaves. 3 languages. Hebrew, Greek and Latin. - Another key principle is that "If it seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it becomes nonsense."
There is no speculation or guessing about the 144,000. The Bible is as clear on this as Salvation by grace through faith. They are Jews. In just in case someone practices eisegesis - reading something into the text that is NOT there - that this might be 'gentiles' grafted in - it's not. It specifically lists the 12,000 each from 12 Jewish tribes. They are NOT believers. When the abomination of desolation takes places - we have the exact day count - friends - at the middle of the 7 years, they will recognize that the 'messiah' is actually the Anti-Christ. The Two Witnesses are not left-behind believers -- There is not a shred of evidence - not an iota of scripture, anywhere to support the notion that these are 'normal Joe Believers'. If they were believers - that are left behind - they would have zero chance witnessing to others. ***Most Bible scholars think these are Enoch and Elijah, the two people who did not see death, because they were 'translated'. The exact same kind of poor hermeneutics that extrapolates - pulls out of thin air - Planet X, is the same kind of poor hermeneutics that assumes out of thin air, that the two witnesses are 'some kind of exception' and Normal Believers who are left behind. In Philosophy - this is known as the Making an argument from Silence. Building theology on a premise not found in scripture anywhere. ;-)
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 5, 2017 1:27:57 GMT -6
So... to add a bump to this road for the fun of it. I think the word "hero" from above might not capture the heart of those who have felt a desire to submit to the Lord in this area. "No greater love has a man than that he lay down his life for a friend." Some truly may not be called to stay behind. Some may be. Let me propose a few ways this could be true - 1. The two witnesses - lot's of speculation about who / what they are - but if they are indeed two living people at the time of the "rapture", then they will be "staying behind." 2. The 144,000 - lot's of speculation about who they are - but if they are indeed living people at the time of the "rapture", then they will be "staying behind." 3. The Remnant of the woman's offspring (Rev. 12:17) - who are they - once again, speculation, but at a minimum, they are believers and they are "staying behind." We have focused so much attention on the man-child, that we have all but ignored the remnant of her offspring. In this post, I am not putting forward any ideas as to who these three groups are - just bringing up that there are multiple ways that some believers could be left behind - that is without discussing a partial rapture. The important thing to see here is that no matter how confident someone is that they know who these groups are - that person still might be wrong, because without direct revelation from God - it cannot be known. It can be surmised, guessed, sought. But it cannot be known until God reveals it to someone or group of someones. All of my cases are based on a pre-trib rapture - may not be true of a later rapture. Another point -
To be left behind is not to be a hero. That idea is revolting and I assume it was just a word mentioned without really meaning it as I took it. To be left behind as a believer would be to serve with love as our Lord served us - unto death. Remember, how do they overcome? Blood of the Lamb, Word of their Testimony, Loved not their life unto death. For some, the spirit is willing and the flesh will not stand in their way - for others the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak. The Lord will discern the heart and role for each of us. * * * Personal Note:I hesitate to add this - but I deeply, more than all but one thing, want to sit at the feet of my savior. I am dying more and more inside each day with His delay. But, what do I desire even more than that? To be His light left behind - providing hope in a hopeless world - letting the world see a small amount of Him in me - until He takes me home. Will He count me worthy to serve him in this way? I doubt it. But I do hold it up to Him. Of course I do not fully comprehend the terrors that will arise during this time period - but I am not afraid for my God has overcome the world. I know how the story ends. Two witnesses-believed by most to be Elijah and either Moses or Enoch. Won't go into detail here, look it up from more knowledgeable sources if you want to know more. Otherwise they could be two people currently alive who are yet to be saved but who God has a special plan for. 144000-I believe are Jews as a plain reading suggests. The Holy Spirit departs the earth temporarily in the rapture and no saved believers are left. No one actually figures it out because there is no one left to tell them what has happened. Even those who are aware of the concept of the rapture, if they are "Christians" they would write it off else "why am I still here." Going off what some people think (not stating as fact) there are powerful organisations such as the UN and the RC church who have already figured out what's coming. They will be instantly ready with a convincing lie. Anyway I believe that after an initial judgement period (seals 1-6 with the reaction to seal 6 suggesting that no one is saved yet. They now actually briefly recognise that this is God's wrath but instead of repenting they want to hide. As did Adam and Eve). Then in the seventh seal the Holy Spirit returns to reveal the truth to the 144000 who were hiding just as everyone else was a moment ago. This is their moment of salvation. Women's offspring-probably some or all of those saved after the rapture. I've done the exact same thing- buddy. But your comment should be outside the quote box. Otherwise it looks like SilentKnight's words/ ideas. --------------------------------------------------------- Galen --- "Two witnesses-believed by most to be Elijah and either Moses or Enoch. Won't go into detail here, look it up from more knowledgeable sources if you want to know more. Otherwise they could be two people currently alive who are yet to be saved but who God has a special plan for.
144000-I believe are Jews as a plain reading suggests. The Holy Spirit departs the earth temporarily in the rapture and no saved believers are left. No one actually figures it out because there is no one left to tell them what has happened. Even those who are aware of the concept of the rapture, if they are "Christians" they would write it off else "why am I still here." Going off what some people think (not stating as fact) there are powerful organisations such as the UN and the RC church who have already figured out what's coming. They will be instantly ready with a convincing lie. Anyway I believe that after an initial judgement period (seals 1-6 with the reaction to seal 6 suggesting that no one is saved yet. They now actually briefly recognise that this is God's wrath but instead of repenting they want to hide. As did Adam and Eve). Then in the seventh seal the Holy Spirit returns to reveal the truth to the 144000 who were hiding just as everyone else was a moment ago. This is their moment of salvation.
Women's offspring-probably some or all of those saved after the rapture."
Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1020/people-gonna-volunteer-left?page=1#ixzz4ucH0F62r
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 8:09:48 GMT -6
I hope, when God works out his plan and brings it to pass, that he uses the correct hermeneutics. Otherwise he is going to have a lot of explaining to do.
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