Post by galen on Oct 1, 2017 7:13:22 GMT -6
I was watching an old John Hagee video (I think it was actually around 20 years old) and he was clearly advocating going through the book in strict order, when he got to Rev 12 he was angrily insisting it was not the rapture because that happened in chapter 4. Recent signs have caused us to link chapter 12 with the rapture which provides a difficulty with the theory but who's to say the sign won't pop up again? Someone "proved" that the sign was a one off (they had gone 6200 years into the past and 1200 years into the future) which could mean over 1200 years to go, but alternatively God could rearrange the stars any way he wants so they don't follow a predictive pattern which might show us we were wrong to look too closely into the sky to try and predict dates. Anyway I was having trouble playing the video, it kept pausing every two seconds and didn't get through or manage to follow it all but I've now had a go reading the book through and building a linear timeline of events. Have been scared to go against any perceived consensus among pre-tribbers recently but here's a linear outline. I think it must all take longer than seven years but still working on that aspect, Daniel's 70th week doesn't begin immediately.
Ch 1: John meets the angel and is instructed to write the letters and told he will be given a vision of the future.
Ch 2-3: Letters to the contemporary churches, which also represent different types of churches of the coming church age. The end of this age is represented by the last two churches, Philadelphia (faithful) church promised to be kept out of the coming wrath while the Laodicea (lukewarm) church is rejected and doomed to miss the rapture.
Ch 4: The rapture and the church shown in the presence of God
Ch 5: The scroll with the seals presented and Jesus shown as the one with authority to open
Ch 6: The seals opened. Not going to try and analyze the first four except to point out that this is obviously still just after the rapture and showing early disasters that happen. The fifth seal points to martyrs of the church age who are told their blood will be avenged a "little while later" after their fellow servants have been killed. These must refer to the tribulation saints to be executed later. Gets interesting in the sixth seal. I had previously assumed it must coincide with the rapture and the first five had been opened in the past. The rapture connection was due to the fact that there's a great worldwide earthquake and all people react in terror as they recognise the hand of God. This is only possible if all people on earth at this moment are unsaved which was why I thought it had to be at the same time as the rapture. But remember it's still very early days and we haven't met the 144000 yet or the two witnesses yet so there is no witness to the world, they have unaminously bought in to the alien story or whatever other delusion.
Ch 7: Now comes the first ray of hope. 144000 Jews are saved and commisioned for evangelical service (1-8). The rest of the chapter may explain why the 144000 have often been mistaken for the church as it moves back to heaven and the saints are praising God. The 144000 are not the same as the multitude.
Ch 8-9: Last seal and trumpets. You can read about them but it culminates in a physically and ecologically devastated world and two thirds of the world's population is killed. in the 5th and 6th trumpets. Those who remain continue in sin.
Ch 10: Still trying to work it out but it takes place in heaven.
Ch 11: Now we meet the two witnesses and see their 3.5 year ministry. Then the last of the seven trumpets is blown. Interestingly what happens on earth parallels that of the seven seals.
Ch 12: Our recent excitement about the sign may have confused what this is really about. God rearranges the stars to form the same allignment. We assumed it was a one-off and therefore the fulfilment of verse 1. Dragon sign appears (constellation) and meteor shower (stars falling to earth). Child snatched up to God (clearly not the church which went in Ch 4) and will rule all nations, must be Jesus and this is merely a celestial illustration of his birth and resurrection, the woman is still Israel and in peril at the present moment, she flees to the desert to be sustained by God. Devil and angels now literally hurled to earth, seeks out woman but she escapes on a giant eagle (US protecting Israel? Although I've recently suspected America is about to be destroyed so maybe no US reference intended if I am correct). She remains out of the devils reach so he pursues the now tribulation saints.
Ch 13: The Antichrist and the false prophet emerge and wow the world as well as instituting the mark of the beast.
Ch 14: The 144000 shown worshipping God. They are hidden from the beast. Three angels emerge for the "last harvest" of souls, warning people not to follow the beast but to turn to God or face frightful eternal consequences.
Ch 15: Seven plagues (confusing)
Ch 16: Seven bowls, refer to chapter for the gruesome details. Further destruction, record earthquake and 100 lb hailstones.
Ch 17: More clues about the antichrist (beast). Once was, now is not and yet will come, gives credence to a theory that he is a tyrant of the distant past (dead by John's time "now is not", given breath of life again by the devil to wreck havoc once again. But a lot of confusion here, woman who is a great city.
Ch 18: Fall of Babylon (whoever that represents)
Ch 19: Moves back to heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb then the climactic return to the earth to defeat evil. Bloodbath and vulture feast
Ch 20: Millenium, final rebellion, final defeat of Satan.
Ch 21-22 New heaven and earth
Still a few gaps, not sure when the tribulation starts, need to try and cross reference to Daniel and other OT end time scriptures. Recent possible Rev 12 sign still creates an issue for this whole thing but if we suspend some of our assumptions the book can be read in logical order.
Ch 1: John meets the angel and is instructed to write the letters and told he will be given a vision of the future.
Ch 2-3: Letters to the contemporary churches, which also represent different types of churches of the coming church age. The end of this age is represented by the last two churches, Philadelphia (faithful) church promised to be kept out of the coming wrath while the Laodicea (lukewarm) church is rejected and doomed to miss the rapture.
Ch 4: The rapture and the church shown in the presence of God
Ch 5: The scroll with the seals presented and Jesus shown as the one with authority to open
Ch 6: The seals opened. Not going to try and analyze the first four except to point out that this is obviously still just after the rapture and showing early disasters that happen. The fifth seal points to martyrs of the church age who are told their blood will be avenged a "little while later" after their fellow servants have been killed. These must refer to the tribulation saints to be executed later. Gets interesting in the sixth seal. I had previously assumed it must coincide with the rapture and the first five had been opened in the past. The rapture connection was due to the fact that there's a great worldwide earthquake and all people react in terror as they recognise the hand of God. This is only possible if all people on earth at this moment are unsaved which was why I thought it had to be at the same time as the rapture. But remember it's still very early days and we haven't met the 144000 yet or the two witnesses yet so there is no witness to the world, they have unaminously bought in to the alien story or whatever other delusion.
Ch 7: Now comes the first ray of hope. 144000 Jews are saved and commisioned for evangelical service (1-8). The rest of the chapter may explain why the 144000 have often been mistaken for the church as it moves back to heaven and the saints are praising God. The 144000 are not the same as the multitude.
Ch 8-9: Last seal and trumpets. You can read about them but it culminates in a physically and ecologically devastated world and two thirds of the world's population is killed. in the 5th and 6th trumpets. Those who remain continue in sin.
Ch 10: Still trying to work it out but it takes place in heaven.
Ch 11: Now we meet the two witnesses and see their 3.5 year ministry. Then the last of the seven trumpets is blown. Interestingly what happens on earth parallels that of the seven seals.
Ch 12: Our recent excitement about the sign may have confused what this is really about. God rearranges the stars to form the same allignment. We assumed it was a one-off and therefore the fulfilment of verse 1. Dragon sign appears (constellation) and meteor shower (stars falling to earth). Child snatched up to God (clearly not the church which went in Ch 4) and will rule all nations, must be Jesus and this is merely a celestial illustration of his birth and resurrection, the woman is still Israel and in peril at the present moment, she flees to the desert to be sustained by God. Devil and angels now literally hurled to earth, seeks out woman but she escapes on a giant eagle (US protecting Israel? Although I've recently suspected America is about to be destroyed so maybe no US reference intended if I am correct). She remains out of the devils reach so he pursues the now tribulation saints.
Ch 13: The Antichrist and the false prophet emerge and wow the world as well as instituting the mark of the beast.
Ch 14: The 144000 shown worshipping God. They are hidden from the beast. Three angels emerge for the "last harvest" of souls, warning people not to follow the beast but to turn to God or face frightful eternal consequences.
Ch 15: Seven plagues (confusing)
Ch 16: Seven bowls, refer to chapter for the gruesome details. Further destruction, record earthquake and 100 lb hailstones.
Ch 17: More clues about the antichrist (beast). Once was, now is not and yet will come, gives credence to a theory that he is a tyrant of the distant past (dead by John's time "now is not", given breath of life again by the devil to wreck havoc once again. But a lot of confusion here, woman who is a great city.
Ch 18: Fall of Babylon (whoever that represents)
Ch 19: Moves back to heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb then the climactic return to the earth to defeat evil. Bloodbath and vulture feast
Ch 20: Millenium, final rebellion, final defeat of Satan.
Ch 21-22 New heaven and earth
Still a few gaps, not sure when the tribulation starts, need to try and cross reference to Daniel and other OT end time scriptures. Recent possible Rev 12 sign still creates an issue for this whole thing but if we suspend some of our assumptions the book can be read in logical order.
