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Post by glennjohn on Mar 21, 2019 14:04:12 GMT -6
I really enjoyed this video as I have had this Darby critique thumbed in my face for some time. Dr. William Watson shatters the idea that this eschatological worldview started with Darby, and shows how/when Post-mill and A-mill worldviews became popular during times of prosperity.
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Post by glennjohn on Mar 21, 2019 22:53:59 GMT -6
Cliffs: Many more nuggets like this.
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Post by venge on Mar 22, 2019 7:24:55 GMT -6
One must think, Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, whose writings show his love for God. Polycarp was a student of John. I’d assume, based upon writings regarding Polycarp which didn’t differ from John, that Irenaeus held the same or similar views. If so, his view of premillennialism would be what the early church believed and what Christ preached.
Though different doctrines exist, what does the Bible teach? Christ will come back ^ Christ will reign ^ Christ will rescue His sheep ^ Christ will destroy those in his kingdom that offend ^ Christ reign will last 1k years ^
All of that is per the Bible however taken. Lot, Noah, Rahab were all literally removed from wrath. The angels stated to those who saw Christ “ascend in the clouds” that Christ would come back exactly as you saw him depart. That would be a literal physical return where Revelation states “every eye will see him.” You cannot make that figurative. Every eye is a fleshly sign.
Just as Solomon rested during his reign when his Father fought, the seed of David will also reign in a time of peace for 1k years. Where the Bible says “men will not know war”.
What do you all agree to and what reasons do you use? This is only my opinion above. Is there something you “see” that others do not?
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Post by glennjohn on Mar 22, 2019 11:37:30 GMT -6
One must think, Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, whose writings show his love for God. Polycarp was a student of John. I’d assume, based upon writings regarding Polycarp which didn’t differ from John, that Irenaeus held the same or similar views. If so, his view of premillennialism would be what the early church believed and what Christ preached. Though different doctrines exist, what does the Bible teach? Christ will come back ^ Christ will reign ^ Christ will rescue His sheep ^ Christ will destroy those in his kingdom that offend ^ Christ reign will last 1k years ^ All of that is per the Bible however taken. Lot, Noah, Rahab were all literally removed from wrath. The angels stated to those who saw Christ “ascend in the clouds” that Christ would come back exactly as you saw him depart. That would be a literal physical return where Revelation states “every eye will see him.” You cannot make that figurative. Every eye is a fleshly sign. Just as Solomon rested during his reign when his Father fought, the seed of David will also reign in a time of peace for 1k years. Where the Bible says “men will not know war”. What do you all agree to and what reasons do you use? This is only my opinion above. Is there something you “see” that others do not? My main reason is when taking a literal hermeneutic you can't help but exit the bible with a dispensational pretrib worldview. Early in my Christian walk a few years ago, I was post trib/pre wrather. I didn't really study Matthew 24, but boy did that change upon a second look. I think Kent Hovind coupled with Youtube Christian truthers are what confused me early on. Revelation 6 lays out clearly that the seal judgments which include the AntiChrist are God's wrath and are not to be contrasted to the AntiChrist having a separate wrath. Also the placement of the 24 elders doesn't fit with a post trib worldview either. I think it's pretty easy also to distinguish that God treats Israel differently than the church. Replacement theology just never fit at all in my studies. God also clearly reveals himself progressively over time, these just all fit together, and aren't a cause for confusion. All other theological worldviews force the allegory.
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Post by venge on Mar 23, 2019 6:30:26 GMT -6
One must think, Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, whose writings show his love for God. Polycarp was a student of John. I’d assume, based upon writings regarding Polycarp which didn’t differ from John, that Irenaeus held the same or similar views. If so, his view of premillennialism would be what the early church believed and what Christ preached. Though different doctrines exist, what does the Bible teach? Christ will come back ^ Christ will reign ^ Christ will rescue His sheep ^ Christ will destroy those in his kingdom that offend ^ Christ reign will last 1k years ^ All of that is per the Bible however taken. Lot, Noah, Rahab were all literally removed from wrath. The angels stated to those who saw Christ “ascend in the clouds” that Christ would come back exactly as you saw him depart. That would be a literal physical return where Revelation states “every eye will see him.” You cannot make that figurative. Every eye is a fleshly sign. Just as Solomon rested during his reign when his Father fought, the seed of David will also reign in a time of peace for 1k years. Where the Bible says “men will not know war”. What do you all agree to and what reasons do you use? This is only my opinion above. Is there something you “see” that others do not? My main reason is when taking a literal hermeneutic you can't help but exit the bible with a dispensational pretrib worldview. Early in my Christian walk a few years ago, I was post trib/pre wrather. I didn't really study Matthew 24, but boy did that change upon a second look. I think Kent Hovind coupled with Youtube Christian truthers are what confused me early on. Revelation 6 lays out clearly that the seal judgments which include the AntiChrist are God's wrath and are not to be contrasted to the AntiChrist having a separate wrath. Also the placement of the 24 elders doesn't fit with a post trib worldview either. I think it's pretty easy also to distinguish that God treats Israel differently than the church. Replacement theology just never fit at all in my studies. God also clearly reveals himself progressively over time, these just all fit together, and aren't a cause for confusion. All other theological worldviews force the allegory. Hey John, Actually, I will just speak for myself. I am currently premillennial but not pre Tribulation. I take Revelation as literal, it will happen like it’s written, but NOT literally how it’s words are understood. Imo, Revelation is understood by reading Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, Isaiah etc. in each OT book, the answers are given that apply to understanding Revelation. In Revelation it is told what the 7 stars “represent.” In the other books, they tell us what other things represent as well: trees, smoke, waters, floods, hot coals, fire, dragons, serpents, tails and heads, poison of a serpent, wind, stars, fruit, mountains, valleys and hills etc With these Revelation comes to life and each part makes sense and fits a perfectly woven picture of the end. If you read the destruction of Tyre, Egypt, Edom, Elam, Babylon, Assyria etc it plays out figuratively very close to the same when understood as such. In regards to God’s wrath, his wrath is not even shown till after the 6th seal is opened per when in Rev 6 it mentions people hiding from the wrath to come as it has NOT come yet. Thumos and ogre are wrath in koine. Tribulation is never defined as God’s wrath in koine Greek. I won’t go into all details here. That’s a different subject. Just wanted to say welcome to the forums
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 23, 2019 10:46:39 GMT -6
Cliffs: Many more nuggets like this. I bet this is a good nugget. He doesn't say before or after he is revealed, just DURING THE TIME of the Antichrist. I bet Andrew of Caesarea is right, but i think we are living right now within the prophetic time period, in the time of the Antichrist. I have a theory that the Antichrist has just about finished pitching his tent, his palatial tents, between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. He has made for himself a line of demarcation. Standing with him, standing behind him, are the marked ones, the kingdom of the rebels, marked for destruction, the many nations and peoples and tongues that the composite beast has risen from. Standing before him is Jesus and the camp of the saints, Mount Zion, the glorious Holy Mountain with the seal of God on their foreheads. That would mean he's about to come to his end, with none to help him. It a theory anyway. But i'm not from a "church", so cave at emptor. I work for free. And welcome to the forum glennjohn.
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 23, 2019 11:02:54 GMT -6
One must think, Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, whose writings show his love for God. Polycarp was a student of John. I’d assume, based upon writings regarding Polycarp which didn’t differ from John, that Irenaeus held the same or similar views. If so, his view of premillennialism would be what the early church believed and what Christ preached. I like Polycarp too. I read the martyrdom of Polycarp. There was something spooky about it, i felt like i was there. I read Polycarp's letter to the Philippians, it's an excellent read. I wonder what John told him about Revelation. Or even if either of them understood all of it. John heard the seven thunders, but was told not to write them down. He was told not to write about them, was he told not to tell about them? Though different doctrines exist, what does the Bible teach? Christ will come back ^ Christ will reign ^ Christ will rescue His sheep ^ Christ will destroy those in his kingdom that offend ^ Christ reign will last 1k years ^ All of that is per the Bible however taken. Lot, Noah, Rahab were all literally removed from wrath. The angels stated to those who saw Christ “ascend in the clouds” that Christ would come back exactly as you saw him depart. That would be a literal physical return where Revelation states “every eye will see him.” You cannot make that figurative. Every eye is a fleshly sign. Just as Solomon rested during his reign when his Father fought, the seed of David will also reign in a time of peace for 1k years. Where the Bible says “men will not know war”. What do you all agree to and what reasons do you use? This is only my opinion above. Is there something you “see” that others do not? I agree with your bullet points, but i'm not too sure about your how and when and where. Like what you are saying about "every eye". There is only one time and place where every eye will see Him (even those who pierced Him), and that can't be at what we call the second coming. Because the rest of the dead, (even those who pierced Him), will not live again until the thousand years are finished. Was Jesus telling Caiaphas that he was to be numbered with the lost? The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
“You have said it,” Jesus told him. “But I tell you, in the future you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Will that high priest's eyes be open at the second coming? Or will he wait for another ressurection after the thousand years are finished? I bet it's going to be an eye opener for him. And what about in Acts, the angel said that Heaven must receive Him until the time comes to restore ALL THINGS. "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.When will the time come to restore all things? "And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making ALL THINGS new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” - Revelation 21:5Heaven must receive Him until the time comes. He went to prepare a place for us, so that we may be where He is. Worthy is the Lamb.
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Post by venge on Mar 24, 2019 5:59:18 GMT -6
One must think, Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, whose writings show his love for God. Polycarp was a student of John. I’d assume, based upon writings regarding Polycarp which didn’t differ from John, that Irenaeus held the same or similar views. If so, his view of premillennialism would be what the early church believed and what Christ preached. I like Polycarp too. I read the martyrdom of Polycarp. There was something spooky about it, i felt like i was there. I read Polycarp's letter to the Philippians, it's an excellent read. I wonder what John told him about Revelation. Or even if either of them understood all of it. John heard the seven thunders, but was told not to write them down. He was told not to write about them, was he told not to tell about them? Though different doctrines exist, what does the Bible teach? Christ will come back ^ Christ will reign ^ Christ will rescue His sheep ^ Christ will destroy those in his kingdom that offend ^ Christ reign will last 1k years ^ All of that is per the Bible however taken. Lot, Noah, Rahab were all literally removed from wrath. The angels stated to those who saw Christ “ascend in the clouds” that Christ would come back exactly as you saw him depart. That would be a literal physical return where Revelation states “every eye will see him.” You cannot make that figurative. Every eye is a fleshly sign. Just as Solomon rested during his reign when his Father fought, the seed of David will also reign in a time of peace for 1k years. Where the Bible says “men will not know war”. What do you all agree to and what reasons do you use? This is only my opinion above. Is there something you “see” that others do not? I agree with your bullet points, but i'm not too sure about your how and when and where. Like what you are saying about "every eye". There is only one time and place where every eye will see Him (even those who pierced Him), and that can't be at what we call the second coming. Because the rest of the dead, (even those who pierced Him), will not live again until the thousand years are finished. Was Jesus telling Caiaphas that he was to be numbered with the lost? The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
“You have said it,” Jesus told him. “But I tell you, in the future you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Will that high priest's eyes be open at the second coming? Or will he wait for another ressurection after the thousand years are finished? I bet it's going to be an eye opener for him. And what about in Acts, the angel said that Heaven must receive Him until the time comes to restore ALL THINGS. "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.When will the time come to restore all things? "And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making ALL THINGS new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” - Revelation 21:5Heaven must receive Him until the time comes. He went to prepare a place for us, so that we may be where He is. Worthy is the Lamb. And that is difficult to understand. The Bible states it, Christ spoke it so it will happen. How: it says every eye. Could it be televised? I don’t know. But I believe in a literal return and seeing him literally come. When: when he begins to reign (Rev 20). At the 2nd advent when he descends from heaven with the voice of an archangel (Rev 10)l, at the 1st resurrection- his reward to his saints at the 7th Trumpet. Where: Vicinity of Israel
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Post by glennjohn on Mar 25, 2019 15:10:07 GMT -6
My main reason is when taking a literal hermeneutic you can't help but exit the bible with a dispensational pretrib worldview. Early in my Christian walk a few years ago, I was post trib/pre wrather. I didn't really study Matthew 24, but boy did that change upon a second look. I think Kent Hovind coupled with Youtube Christian truthers are what confused me early on. Revelation 6 lays out clearly that the seal judgments which include the AntiChrist are God's wrath and are not to be contrasted to the AntiChrist having a separate wrath. Also the placement of the 24 elders doesn't fit with a post trib worldview either. I think it's pretty easy also to distinguish that God treats Israel differently than the church. Replacement theology just never fit at all in my studies. God also clearly reveals himself progressively over time, these just all fit together, and aren't a cause for confusion. All other theological worldviews force the allegory. Hey John, Actually, I will just speak for myself. I am currently premillennial but not pre Tribulation. I take Revelation as literal, it will happen like it’s written, but NOT literally how it’s words are understood. Imo, Revelation is understood by reading Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, Isaiah etc. in each OT book, the answers are given that apply to understanding Revelation. In Revelation it is told what the 7 stars “represent.” In the other books, they tell us what other things represent as well: trees, smoke, waters, floods, hot coals, fire, dragons, serpents, tails and heads, poison of a serpent, wind, stars, fruit, mountains, valleys and hills etc With these Revelation comes to life and each part makes sense and fits a perfectly woven picture of the end. If you read the destruction of Tyre, Egypt, Edom, Elam, Babylon, Assyria etc it plays out figuratively very close to the same when understood as such. In regards to God’s wrath, his wrath is not even shown till after the 6th seal is opened per when in Rev 6 it mentions people hiding from the wrath to come as it has NOT come yet. Thumos and ogre are wrath in koine. Tribulation is never defined as God’s wrath in koine Greek. I won’t go into all details here. That’s a different subject. Just wanted to say welcome to the forums Hi I appreciate the warm welcome. So i imagine by implication then you don't define the 24 elders as the church?
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Post by Natalie on Mar 25, 2019 15:57:19 GMT -6
Hi and welcome glennjohn! We have a thread about the 24 elders here: board.unsealed.org/thread/1575/who-24-elders if you are interested. Some of Venge's thoughts are there. It's an interesting topic that I have been studying on a bit more. Feel free to bump that post back up for discussion if you wish.
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 29, 2019 19:00:56 GMT -6
I like Polycarp too. I read the martyrdom of Polycarp. There was something spooky about it, i felt like i was there. I read Polycarp's letter to the Philippians, it's an excellent read. I wonder what John told him about Revelation. Or even if either of them understood all of it. John heard the seven thunders, but was told not to write them down. He was told not to write about them, was he told not to tell about them? I agree with your bullet points, but i'm not too sure about your how and when and where. Like what you are saying about "every eye". There is only one time and place where every eye will see Him (even those who pierced Him), and that can't be at what we call the second coming. Because the rest of the dead, (even those who pierced Him), will not live again until the thousand years are finished. Was Jesus telling Caiaphas that he was to be numbered with the lost? The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
“You have said it,” Jesus told him. “But I tell you, in the future you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Will that high priest's eyes be open at the second coming? Or will he wait for another ressurection after the thousand years are finished? I bet it's going to be an eye opener for him. And what about in Acts, the angel said that Heaven must receive Him until the time comes to restore ALL THINGS. "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.When will the time come to restore all things? "And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making ALL THINGS new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” - Revelation 21:5Heaven must receive Him until the time comes. He went to prepare a place for us, so that we may be where He is. Worthy is the Lamb. And that is difficult to understand. The Bible states it, Christ spoke it so it will happen. How: it says every eye. Could it be televised? I don’t know. But I believe in a literal return and seeing him literally come. When: when he begins to reign (Rev 20). At the 2nd advent when he descends from heaven with the voice of an archangel (Rev 10)l, at the 1st resurrection- his reward to his saints at the 7th Trumpet. Where: Vicinity of Israel I agree, Christ spoke it, so it WILL happen. It's just our understanding of the timing of it that i question. It can't be televised. There'll be no electricity, no cellphones. It will be a unique day, like no other day before. Neither cold nor hot. On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light. I also believe in a literal return and seeing him literally come at the second coming, but not every eye will see Him then, especially those who pierced Him. There's only one time in history when every human eye will be open, even those who pierced Him, and be fixed directly at Jesus. Even the sea will give up it's dead at the second resurrection, after the thousand years are finished. It will be a unique day, a peculiar day. No distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
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Post by mike on Mar 29, 2019 19:18:27 GMT -6
I do like Paul Dawsons view on this topic. The day that every eye sees Him is after 1000 yrs. I posted his video on the subject in his thread, check it out
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Post by venge on Mar 30, 2019 7:45:49 GMT -6
And that is difficult to understand. The Bible states it, Christ spoke it so it will happen. How: it says every eye. Could it be televised? I don’t know. But I believe in a literal return and seeing him literally come. When: when he begins to reign (Rev 20). At the 2nd advent when he descends from heaven with the voice of an archangel (Rev 10)l, at the 1st resurrection- his reward to his saints at the 7th Trumpet. Where: Vicinity of Israel I agree, Christ spoke it, so it WILL happen. It's just our understanding of the timing of it that i question. It can't be televised. There'll be no electricity, no cellphones. It will be a unique day, like no other day before. Neither cold nor hot. On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light. I also believe in a literal return and seeing him literally come at the second coming, but not every eye will see Him then, especially those who pierced Him. There's only one time in history when every human eye will be open, even those who pierced Him, and be fixed directly at Jesus. Even the sea will give up it's dead at the second resurrection, after the thousand years are finished. It will be a unique day, a peculiar day. No distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light. I take the verse figuratively. The explanation of no light or dark but will be light at night is found elsewhere in the Bible. It references the light being love, joy, kindness etc fruits of the spirit. The dark being wickedness where no light (goodness) is because there is only wickedness. The dark snuffs out the light but at literal night time, there will be spiritual light. I will have to find the verses to paste here when I have time. Just my opinion. Light always shines in darkness spiritually. Even in dark times, Christ says let your light shine like a candle, a lantern, a torch. Check out some commentaries here: biblehub.com/commentaries/zechariah/14-7.htm
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 30, 2019 9:49:07 GMT -6
I agree, Christ spoke it, so it WILL happen. It's just our understanding of the timing of it that i question. It can't be televised. There'll be no electricity, no cellphones. It will be a unique day, like no other day before. Neither cold nor hot. On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light. I also believe in a literal return and seeing him literally come at the second coming, but not every eye will see Him then, especially those who pierced Him. There's only one time in history when every human eye will be open, even those who pierced Him, and be fixed directly at Jesus. Even the sea will give up it's dead at the second resurrection, after the thousand years are finished. It will be a unique day, a peculiar day. No distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light. I take the verse figuratively. The explanation of no light or dark but will be light at night is found elsewhere in the Bible. It references the light being love, joy, kindness etc fruits of the spirit. The dark being wickedness where no light (goodness) is because there is only wickedness. The dark snuffs out the light but at literal night time, there will be spiritual light. I will have to find the verses to paste here when I have time. Just my opinion. Light always shines in darkness spiritually. Even in dark times, Christ says let your light shine like a candle, a lantern, a torch. Check out some commentaries here: biblehub.com/commentaries/zechariah/14-7.htm "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.
"From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
"On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness.
"It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night.
"When evening comes, there will be light.I don't take it figuratively. I think this is the spookiest deal of all time. We need to get this part behind us before the real fun begins. During Armageddon, we just have the evil that is alive during the end of THIS age to worry about as they try to kill God. At the end of the thousand years, ALL of the wicked will be brought back to life, even the sea will give up it's dead, and they will march across the broad plain of the earth. Billions of lost souls from all the ages of humanity will surround the camp of the saints which are in the Beloved City. And the Beloved City is huge, 1500 miles in four sides. The rest of the dead have plenty of room for a front row position on the ground. They are looking into our eyes as we look back into theirs. At first they muster some form of temporary repentance. Every eye will see Him, every knee will bow, even those who pierced Him. But then, as they realize what is going to happen next, the Tempter deceives them one last time. The Devil will convince these many nations and peoples and tongues, that their only chance is to rush the Holy City by force. Because of their vast numbers, they might be led to believe that they have a chance. All that they need to do is to just get through one of those gates of made of pearl and to the tree of life. If they can just make it into the Holy City itself, they might be safe from the fire that is about to fall on them. But as soon as they make their move, the fire falls from heaven and burns them up. "And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
Even those who pierced Him.
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Post by venge on Mar 30, 2019 10:13:19 GMT -6
I take the verse figuratively. The explanation of no light or dark but will be light at night is found elsewhere in the Bible. It references the light being love, joy, kindness etc fruits of the spirit. The dark being wickedness where no light (goodness) is because there is only wickedness. The dark snuffs out the light but at literal night time, there will be spiritual light. I will have to find the verses to paste here when I have time. Just my opinion. Light always shines in darkness spiritually. Even in dark times, Christ says let your light shine like a candle, a lantern, a torch. Check out some commentaries here: biblehub.com/commentaries/zechariah/14-7.htm "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.
"From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
"On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness.
"It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night.
"When evening comes, there will be light.I don't take it figuratively. I think this is the spookiest deal of all time. We need to get this part behind us before the real fun begins. During Armageddon, we just have the evil that is alive during the end of THIS age to worry about as they try to kill God. At the end of the thousand years, ALL of the wicked will be brought back to life, even the sea will give up it's dead, and they will march across the broad plain of the earth. Billions of lost souls from all the ages of humanity will surround the camp of the saints which are in the Beloved City. And the Beloved City is huge, 1500 miles in four sides. The rest of the dead have plenty of room for a front row position on the ground. They are looking into our eyes as we look back into theirs. At first they muster some form of temporary repentance. Every eye will see Him, every knee will bow, even those who pierced Him. But then, as they realize what is going to happen next, the Tempter deceives them one last time. The Devil will convince these many nations and peoples and tongues, that their only chance is to rush the Holy City by force. Because of their vast numbers, they might be led to believe that they have a chance. All that they need to do is to just get through one of those gates of made of pearl and to the tree of life. If they can just make it into the Holy City itself, they might be safe from the fire that is about to fall on them. But as soon as they make their move, the fire falls from heaven and burns them up. "And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
Even those who pierced Him. You said: The dead don’t march back, it is the nations in the 4 corners of the world. Regular people, terrestrial. Mortal not immortal. Verse 15 states the wicked not in the book are thrown into fire. They don’t go to earth to march against God. Verse 14 preceding this calls it: This is the second deathYou said: The bible does not say those who pierced him will be among those who march back either. Please show me scripture with book and verse. You said, I don't believe the tree of life is a literal tree with fruit that you eat daily like the fountain of youth that you drink from. The tree on each side of the river bearing its fruit and its leaves for the healing of nations are very symbolic. Very spiritual. To access the Tree of Life we need Jesus. We need God. Eve had God but wanted more. He wasnt enough. In her pride, she wanted to have knowledge like God's. She exhalted herself and took of the forbidden fruit. In doing so, she chose her own inclination over God's law.
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