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Post by disciple4life on Oct 12, 2017 17:58:58 GMT -6
OK. Disclaimer here. I'm a fellow watchman - like you all. I've been challenged and inspired by you. I firmly believe we all have parts of the puzzle. I have been sure that my blue piece was sky- it was too clear and even to be water - but when I put it together with someone else' piece, it was clear that it's a blue house. I have been forced to realize that much of what I learned in the church about end times was based on tradition and poor principles of Biblical Interpretation.
Even in the last 6 months, I've learned new information that has caused me to see holes in my views. We all can vividly remember the time and place we were jolted by the harsh reality that Viking helmets never had horns.
**A key thing to remember is that we can even have explicit proof with evidence from History, scripture and science that someone is wrong, but it doesn't make others false prophets. We're brothers and sisters on a journey, ultimately watching for the return of Christ. I realize that there are a few other threads that touch on the death of Christ/ birth of Christ, - but I felt in my heart, that it's better to focus this thread on how/why it confirms that the Feasts are all inseparably linked to Christ.
I would like to lay out the framework and why it relates to End Times. Background - The entire concept of a "Palm Sunday" is based 100% on the notion of a Friday crucifixion, which was largely due to the Catholic church's ignorance/ poor understanding of Jewish culture and customs and the Feasts. The entire issue can be traced to not understanding the Feasts, and how they were ordained by God, and how they were to be carried out. Think about it - there is no mention anywhere in any of the Gospels of Palm Sunday - Or that the Triumphal entry was on the First day of the week. Most people set out to get the Day of Christ's Death, [but fail to remember that the Jews used a lunar calendar, which doesn't match the Gregorian calendar.] So they chose a year when Passover fell on a Friday, AD 33, but didn't realize that it caused the year to be off - because they didn't harmonize scripture, and didn't follow basic steps of Hermeneutics. 1. O What Else/ What Other verses. Look to see what other passages talk about this - cross referencing. 2. I Use the Bible to Interpret itself 3. C. Look at the Context - Look at the historical context, grammatical context and literary context 4. I. What did the Author Intend. - a. Before we can ask "What does this mean to me?" - North American Gentile, we have to ask 'What did it mean to them? 1 Century Jew. and b. Read the Text for it's plain and obvious meaning. 5. N. Never use your experience as a lens to interpret scripture. Five huge nails in the Friday theory. - Trip to Bethany First key is in John chapter 12. Six days before the Passover, Jesus went to Bethany. ***Bethany was the home of Mary and Martha, and Lazarus, - which was more than a Sabbath day's journey. Count six days back from Friday and this is Saturday, - weekly Sabbath.
---Take a minute and let this really sink in. The ones who believe in a Palm Sunday, count back six days from the Passover, - then the text says the Next day, Christ came into Jerusalem, and people laid palm branches. They didn't understand Jewish Sabbath Laws, nor did they understand the difference between Weekly Sabbath and High Sabbath. - Those spices -- Yeah, 100 lbs, / approx. 40 Kilograms, which had to be bought, mixed and prepared and carried in multiple trips, with help. Think about buying, 100 separate cake mixes, carrying them, transporting them and making the right mixture for embalming. All this was WORK, forbidden on the Sabbath. No car, no SUV, No Ebay, no Super Walmart, and no Betty Crocker Embalming Mix. They bought spices before the Sabbath, and after the Sabbath. With a Friday crucifix, and burial before Saturday, this is not possible.
***Scripture is explicitly clear that they had to take the body off the cross before sundown - before the start of the Sabbath - [This was Passover, 14th of Nissan, Wed twilight.] They bought spices before the High Sabbath of Passover , [so they bought part of the spices Monday or Tuesday], then they rested on Passover, then, they could buy the rest of the 100 lbs of spices on Friday, and rest on the Weekly Sabbath. - Sign of Jonah - the only sign that Christ gave to show that he was the Messiah was the sign of Jonah. Multiple passages from the gospels and Jonah say he was in the whale/great fish 3 days and 3 nights - and that he would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. Not parts of days. Anyone want to say that it really only rained 38 days in the great flood? No. The text is explicitly clear, 40 days and 40 nights. Anyone want to say Jesus was in the wilderness 38 days and parts of two.
 ? If it seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense or it will be nonsense. There is no way to have a Friday crucifix or a Thursday crucifix and have Christ in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. - The Hostile witnesses. Any first year law student knows that a hostile witness is one of the most reliable. It's a witness who is not on your side/ not supports your cause or agenda and their testimony confirms your story. It's the example of hostile Roman historians who hated Christians giving testimony that confirms the death of Christ, and the earthquake and the darkness. There are two versions of the Talmud. The Talmud is the Jewish commentary to the Tanakh. It is believed to be the oral instruction given to Abraham by God. There is the Jerusalem Talmud and the longer, more authoritative Babylonian Talmud. Both of these hostile witness confirm multiple miracles that happened for 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, 70 AD. that the lot for the goat always fell to the Lord, every single year for 40 years, the doors to the temple opened by themselves and the Western lamp went out every night for 40 years. **This is HUGE, because there were 2 goats on Day of Atonement. The one goat was the Lords', which would be sacrificed, and the other was to be turned into the wilderness. They took two stones from the priests breastplates like dice, and the lot always fell to the same goat.
***Counting 40 years inclusive from 70 is 31 AD. The 33 AD crucifixion is too late. **It puts these miracles that happened for 40 years - starting before Christ died. - Daniel's Prophecy. ?? The messiah was Cut Off in the Middle of the week. In the Middle of the week, he made the sacrifices and offerings stop. The earthquake and darkness stopped the sacrifices in the middle of the week.
According to Stellarium, Passover - Nisan 14th was on Wednesday, AD 31.  Christ fulfilled all the Spring Feasts in Perfect order, and in perfect precision. He either fulfills them all perfectly, or he doesn't.
Very very compelling evidence, along with Stellarium, and harmonizing verses, that show Christ was born on Yom Teruah, Sept 11, 3 BC. www.Torahcalendar.org
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 12, 2017 19:45:06 GMT -6
I agree. He was crucified on Passover because he forced Judas hand the night before at the Passover feast by calling him out in front of everyone. Judas had no choice at that point but to complete his betrayal. Jesus wanted it to happen on that day, and that was when it was going to happen.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 13, 2017 2:54:56 GMT -6
Here is a fantastic article just posted by 'Waiting4theday'. biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm.
I mentioned to him, that this was my former theory - Birth of Christ was on Feast of Tabernacles - There is very strong evidence from scripture, as well as other very interesting clues from Jewish language and culture.
- The biggest problem with Feast of Tabernacles/ Sukkot is that this is a huge Pilgrimage feast. Jews are required to come to Jerusalem, and the Romans would never make a census on Feast of Booths, and require all males to return to the town of their birth. It would make a revolt.
- If the Jews had to choose to Obey YHWH/ The Lord, or obey some arbitrary law by their opressors -- Sheeeeesh. Fuggeddaboudit. FugGEDdaboudit. **Use NY accent here.
The very cool thing is that although I think Yom Teruah /Feast of Trumpets on Sept 11, 3 BC has a lot of strong reasons and a much better fit - [***Revelation 12 sign people - You will LOVE, LOVE this - the precision of this is mindnumbing], Feast of Tabernacles is only two weeks later, and all the details from scripture, regarding Zechariah's service still hold up.
The FOT, Yom Teruah date /theory of Sept 3, 3 BC is also confirmed by Stellarium, and brings in amazing information regarding Spica - the branch, which is loaded with prophetic meaning. ;-)
***Also very interesting, that Feast of Trumpets, Yom Teruah was the coronation of Kings. Hark, the Herald Angels, sing, Christ the Lord, the Newborn King.
Www.torahcalendar.org Unfortunately you can't just put a link for the specific article - just go to the main page and scroll down to the Birth of Christ blue banner with wise men. It's absolutely incredible. - When I wrote this thread, I hadn't seen this article, but he also uses Daniel's prophecy about the exact number of days from the rebuilding of the temple, and this puts his Birth at 3 BC.
''It is evident that by understanding this prophecy, and knowing the date of the decree when Daniel's 70 weeks began (Ezra 7, 457 B.C.), the wise men knew exactly when to look for the Christ child.
- The 70th week of Daniel, a period of 7 literal years, began with "Messiah the Prince". Messiah means anointed, and Jesus was publically anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism, declaring him to be the Messiah, at the end of 69 weeks / 483 prophetic years, which calculates to 27 A.D. as the year of Christ's baptism." [Start of his 3 1/2 year ministry.]
- Knowing the year of Christ's baptism to be 483 years after the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C., the wisemen needed simply to subtract 30 from 483 to know the Messiah would be born 453 years after the decree. Why 30? A man had to be 30 years of age to serve in the Sanctuary / Temple (Numbers 4:3), and Luke says that at His baptism Jesus became about thirty. Jesus, when He turned 30, was considered to be old enough to perform the duties of a priest."
He also makes the exact same point about the Messiah being cut off in the middle of the week . Dual fulfillment. ? ? "Daniel 9:26-27 also tells us that the Messiah would be "cut off" (crucified) in the "midst of the (70th) week". So 3 1/2 years after His baptism, which was at the end of 69 weeks / 483 prophetic years, on Tabernacles of 27 A.D., Jesus would be crucified, precisely on 14 Nisan, Passover of 31 A.D." Wednesday - middle of the week. hmmmm. biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 13, 2017 3:41:13 GMT -6
I really love other viewpoints - even those that disagree. That's how we learn, grow and sharpen each other.
For me, the two iron-clad points are the explicit words of Christ and Jonah of 3 days and 3 nights, and the miracles regarding the Sacrificial 'scapegoat' on Day of Atonement, and confirmed by multiple 'hostile witnesses' that puts the crucifixion at 31 AD.
- We need to be like Bereans, and harmonize scripture with history and science, - we need to remember that we all only have parts of the puzzle, - and we need to use sound/ consistent Biblical Interpretation.
Also there is a good video clip
Dr Michael Heiser ‘The Date of Christ’s Birth in Revelation 12’
There is also a very well-respected Eschatology teacher, well-known in the End-times community and on Unsealed and he/she agrees with the Wednesday Nisan 14, AD 31 Passover.
You'll have to dig - I don't want to quote someone without their permission.
What would be awesome, would be to have other watchmen share your piece - your understanding. I'm especially intrigued by the Daniel piece.
Maranatha my brothers and sisters. Happy Tabernacles - The Feast for all nations!!
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 13, 2017 4:17:50 GMT -6
I agree. He was crucified on Passover because he forced Judas hand the night before at the Passover feast by calling him out in front of everyone. Judas had no choice at that point but to complete his betrayal. Jesus wanted it to happen on that day, and that was when it was going to happen. Great point, Cwood. Here's something that is so fascinating - I thought you would appreciate it. - Anyone who loves details. Just wow.
It is documented that just as we see today, [Different Jewish groups use slightly different days] in Christ's day, there were also two calendars in use. - Scripture clearly and explicitly says that Christ told his disciples to prepare the upper room, so that they could eat the Passover.
- We also know that scripture clearly says that the Jewish leaders had not eaten Passover yet.
- We know from historical records, - Josephus and other world-class historians, that based on the number of people in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, it was not physically possible to sacrifice all the lambs in one evening.
- So according to Bible scholar, and seminary professor of Hebrew and Greek, Dr Alan Brown, Jesus and his disciples were all aware of the two calendars, and it is most likely that he ate the Passover meal, [The last supper] with his disciples in the upper room, on the first night, and then, perfectly fulfilled the Passover, the next day, on 14th of Nissan, at the time the lambs were being sacrificed in the temple.
**Another theory is that Jesus knew that his death was at hand, and decided to celebrate the Passover early. Scripture says it was a Passover meal, but it's silent as to whether they had a roasted lamb or not. My personal view is that there probably wasn't a lamb, and that the disciples didn't fully understand this until He became the Sacrificial lamb.
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Post by sawdy on Oct 13, 2017 5:52:37 GMT -6
Thanks! disciple4lifeWhat great information to be reminded of (and to learn) this morning. What a great start to the day! |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 13, 2017 8:56:37 GMT -6
As much as I'm passionate about End Times, and looking for the clues for the coming of our Messiah, I'm very passionate about Discipleship, and sharing tools and resources.
It's connected to this thread, because of the fundamental importance that Biblical interpretation plays in every topic of doctrine or anything Bible.
Every issue from our understanding of God, to end times, is directly shaped by the way we view and interpret scripture.
This is not my work - but I am so blessed to be able to share it. ;-)
It's not part of one church or denomination - but it's solidly evangelical - Not ecumenical.
It's the work of pastors, seminary professors, church planters, artists and missionaries from 12 countries around the world.
5 Principles of Bible Interpretation. As of now, it's in English, Polish, Romanian and Ukrainian. More soon. 5 Principles of Bible Interpretation.pdf (585.02 KB)
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Post by Rick on Oct 14, 2017 22:44:26 GMT -6
I really love other viewpoints - even those that disagree. That's how we learn, grow and sharpen each other.
For me, the two iron-clad points are the explicit words of Christ and Jonah of 3 days and 3 nights, and the miracles regarding the Sacrificial 'scapegoat' on Day of Atonement, and confirmed by multiple 'hostile witnesses' that puts the crucifixion at 31 AD.
- We need to be like Bereans, and harmonize scripture with history and science, - we need to remember that we all only have parts of the puzzle, - and we need to use sound/ consistent Biblical Interpretation.
Also there is a good video clip
Dr Michael Heiser ‘The Date of Christ’s Birth in Revelation 12’
There is also a very well-respected Eschatology teacher, well-known in the End-times community and on Unsealed and he/she agrees with the Wednesday Nisan 14, AD 31 Passover.
You'll have to dig - I don't want to quote someone without their permission.
What would be awesome, would be to have other watchmen share your piece - your understanding. I'm especially intrigued by the Daniel piece.
Maranatha my brothers and sisters. Happy Tabernacles - The Feast for all nations!!
Very nice disciple4life, I like the way it all seems to tie together, and I commend you for your steadfastness as a watchman. I enjoy reading through your posts. God bless my brother. |
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Post by nana on Oct 15, 2017 16:28:54 GMT -6
Good thread!
Yes, Jesus was crucified on Passover. He was put on the cross at 9 am and died at 3pm. 6 hours, 6 is the number of man and of sin which is the exact reason Jesus went to the cross to lay down his life to pay our sin debt in full. Crucifixion usually took days but Jesus died in 6 short hours because he had a feast to keep/fulfill and 2 others within the coming days.
Nights in the grave in our time: Wednesday, Thursday, Friday
Days in the grave in our time: Thursday, Friday, Saturday
Jesus probably rose somewhere around moonrise Saturday evening.
Saturday evening at moonrise the weekly Sabbath ends.
3 full days and 3 full nights.
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Post by whatif on Oct 21, 2017 12:34:58 GMT -6
This new thread has been started to reopen the thread that was locked for moderation review. It was decided by the moderators to keep the original thread locked and to move the posts that were related to the topic for continuing the discussion. Let's begin afresh, let go of the past, and show love for one another as we proceed.
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Post by rt on Oct 24, 2017 7:35:58 GMT -6
Does someone know how I can post a chart from a word document? I made a chart that ties all the scriptures together concerning the timeline of Christ's death and resurrection. I would love to share it, but not sure how to make that happen.
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Post by mike on Oct 24, 2017 7:37:44 GMT -6
Does someone know how I can post a chart from a word document? I made a chart that ties all the scriptures together concerning the timeline of Christ's death and resurrection. I would love to share it, but not sure how to make that happen. If you do a regular reply and not a "Quick Reply" ...Up top to the left of the smiley face there is an "insert image" icon. That should work |
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Post by rt on Oct 24, 2017 7:44:00 GMT -6
Does someone know how I can post a chart from a word document? I made a chart that ties all the scriptures together concerning the timeline of Christ's death and resurrection. I would love to share it, but not sure how to make that happen. If you do a regular reply and not a "Quick Reply" ...Up top to the left of the smiley face there is an "insert image" icon. That should work Hi Mike, the problem is that it asks for a URL which I don't have as it is a document in Word on my personal computer. Could "add attachment" work? " |
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Post by rt on Oct 24, 2017 8:04:40 GMT -6
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 24, 2017 8:28:40 GMT -6
Does someone know how I can post a chart from a word document? I made a chart that ties all the scriptures together concerning the timeline of Christ's death and resurrection. I would love to share it, but not sure how to make that happen. Hello rt ;-) I would love to see your timeline. ;-) I'm decidedly in the camp with brad "I definitely don't know the exact date of the crucifixion 100%" ;-) but when we compare scripture, and history, and astronomy, and modern software like Stary night, and Stellarium, and consider the extra-Biblical sources, we have a very compelling case. Did i mention Otters like Pictures.  If you click the 'quote' icon, up by the 'like' button, in the far upper right, is a separate button that says "Add Attachment". You might have to "save" your graphic as a PDF or JPEG doc type first. That's what I did. Saved this graphic as a PDF and then imported it as an Attachment.
I've seen droves and hoards of charts and timelines. This one is the best one I've ever seen anywhere. They harmonize all the verses from the different accounts. I think you will be impressed. I first saw it in a video by a well-known fellow watchman/woman who is very highly knowledgeable and well-respected in the End-times community. I cannot quote him/her without their permission but they sent me the link for this chart.
www.ucg.org/the-good-news/the-chronology-of-the-crucifixion-and-resurrection-of-jesus-christ **I don't endorse the denomination or agree with all the doctrine, of this website, but they have some fantastic stuff on end-times. Definitely worth checking out the site. When we look at scripture, different accounts, history, and the hostile witness, It is my humble opinion that we can positively eliminate the Catholic/Friday crucifixion date. There are six huge problems with this. I love to hear other perspectives, and compare different timelines. All my life I was raised with the Friday view, and only after seeing the holes, revealed by other watchmen, I had to change my position. 
Maranatha, Fellow watchmen. Disciple4life
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? If it seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense or it will be nonsense. There is no way to have a Friday crucifix or a Thursday crucifix and have Christ in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. 
Christ fulfilled all the Spring Feasts in Perfect order, and in perfect precision. He either fulfills them all perfectly, or he doesn't. 
If you click the 'quote' icon, up by the 'like' button, in the far upper right, is a separate button that says "Add Attachment". 
