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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 18:03:38 GMT -6
Recently I realized something big. After stumbling on a couple of analyses, I realized that what most people know about the book of Revelation, me included, is wrong. And what I'm now convinced is the truth about Revelation can prove to be great confirmation for what's ahead. It starts with this - all of the book of Revelation is for Jews. None is for Christians (who are neither Jew nor Gentile). That includes seven letters to the churches. Those are not Christian churches. Those seem to be scattered Jewish assemblies existing during the end days. At best, they are assemblies of both Jews and new Gentile believers in God and Jesus Christ in the end days. I could write a lot about why it is so, but other people have already done it. Among resources to study, I suggest reading this book online: www.ccel.org/ccel/bullinger/apocalypse. Maybe just to mention, in short, that basically all phrases, values and commands given by Jesus to the Revelation churches are foreign to what Paul wrote to Christian churches. Some are not only foreign, but opposite to Paul's letters. At the same time, Jesus' message is perfectly in sync with the previous phrases, values and commands given to the Jews waiting for the Messiah to establish the Kingdom of Heaven. Revelation is peppered with about 400 references from Old Testament and practically no references from Paul's wording to Christians. And by the way, the use of the word "church" in Revelation 2 and 3 shouldn't be an issue at all, once you research it. Anyway, basically everywhere you look in Revelation it is not about Christians, it is about Jews. I used to wonder, for example, why is Jesus presented as Lamb throughout the Revelation. This morning I checked how many times Paul uses the word "lamb" in his epistles and found out that he doesn't use the word at all. There is not one single mention of "lamb" in Paul's epistles. Why? I guess because for all who believe in Christian gospel - that Jesus died for our sins and was raised on a third day - Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Saviour, the Son of God. Jesus is already in glory. But Jews are two thousand years behind. They are yet to see that Jesus is the Lamb of God, let alone their Messiah and Saviour. So before them, Jesus is still a Lamb, preparing them to see and understand Him as such, and then to go from there. Interestingly, in all of this I came to a realization that New Jerusalem, described in Revelation, also seems not to be Christians' home. That's predominantly Jewish city for the millenium, with gates open for all the world. Where's the place for Christians then? Paul says it - in heavenly places. The same place where Christian citizenship is. Paul says that no eye can see and no mind can contemplate what God has prepared (in heaven) for those who love Him. How can John describe New Jerusalem then? Easily - Paul and John where not describing the same place. Paul was talking about home for Christians in heavenly places, which no eye can see and no mind can contemplate, while John was describing town stationed on Earth in the millenium, which our minds can contemplate to the extent. I could go on and on, but for all who want to research how deep is Revelation tailored for the Jews and God's promise to the Jews, and not at all for Christians, go to the link I provided above. I might not agree with all that the author I referenced wrote, but it is a thorough study, great as a jumpstart. Or do your own research and insight. Anyway, what does this all mean for here and now? First, Revelation reveals new dispensation. Way to eternal life is not anymore by grace, through faith, as a gift from God, not of works so no one can boast, through Jesus' blood on the cross, but through faith plus works in not taking the mark of the beast nor worshipping the beast. Jesus labels it "overcoming". And since the book is all about Jews and Gentiles, not about Christians, that would suggest that as soon as events from Revelation happen, Christian dispensation is already over. And with that, based on Revelation and other scriptures, Christians are most likely not on Earth anymore. The main message of Revelation to the Christians, it seems to be, is this: "When any of this happens, you are already gone. This is not for you or about you." So, if a sign on September 23rd is indeed the Revelation 12 sign, and it looks like it is, that means that when it appears, Christian dispensation will most likely already be over. The sign announces the commencement of the new dispensation. It is the sign for what is about to happen, as some suggest, but not for Christians. It signals what's next for Jews and Gentiles in the end times tribulation. And as the sign itself is within the new dispensation, being described in Revelation, that would place the rapture of Christians ahead it's appearing. Additionaly, Revelation 12 sign doesn't necessarily have to be the start of the 70th week. But it very much looks like the start of the new dispensation. So there could be a gap between the rapture and the 70th week. But there is no gap between the rapture and the new dispensation. Right after the rapture, Christian dispensation ends and new one, revealed in letters to the seven churches, begins. And this new one is announced with the sign in the sky. Then, maybe right away, or some time later, 70th week begins. P.S. By the way, right now I see even less how Revelation 12:5 has anything to do with the rapture of Christians. It more looks like the rapture of 144,000 virgins or tribulation saints. Especially when considering Biblical precedents with gaps between events prophecied within the same verse or passage, which makes it impossible to definitely conclude what's the timing of the rapture in Revelation 12:5 in relation to the whole chapter 12 and whole Revelation. But whatever the timing is, I don't think it's about Christians. Nothing in Revelation is about the rapture of Christians, in my view, not even the famous Revelation 4:1. Revelation is simply all about Jews and to the extent about tribulation saints. P.P.S. There's a possibility that new dispensation starts while current doesn't end, negating the need for the rapture before 23rd. That was how our dispensation began. But we have one book, the book of Acts, that shows two dispensations intermingling, with one fading out and other fading in. So there's a clue in the Bible for that. (As a sidenote, dispensations didn't change abruptly on Pentecost because Gospel of Kingdom of Heaven was preached for years after Jesus' ressurection by the apostles and other disciples. Christian dispensation, along with the Christian Gospel, started later with Paul.) This time we have the book of Revelation, and Revelation is 100% about new dispensation. There is no intermingling. In Revelation there is no salvation by grace, through faith, as a gift of God, not of works so no one can boast, through Jesus' blood on the cross. In place of that Jesus proclaims lot of warnings and chastises people gathered in His name to do works and overcome or else be erased from the Book of Life. That suggests that our current dispensation has ended utterly by that time. Which is also in favor of the rapture before 23rd. P.P.P.S. With this said, there is a possibility that the sign on 23rd is not the Revelation 12 sign, but something that only looks like it. I personally don't see that it isn't the real sign, all things considered. So all in all, with understanding that the sign on 23rd is actually the Revelation 12 sign, I think Bible reveals that the rapture happens before the sign occurs. Maybe seconds, or minutes, or hours or day before. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 17, 2017 18:45:02 GMT -6
Interesting. My first response would have been to just deny that most of what you said is true. But I'm not going to do that. . . . as I read down through it, I began to see some points that I couldn't flat-out deny in one fell swoop, but would have to prove out by various means. I can see that you have put some thought into what you have said here, henrym, so I would rather we go through and look at it piece by piece. 1. I do think that the book of Revelation will have a very major impact on tribulation saints, both Israelite and gentile. 2. I can't accept that it has no relevance to us today. 3. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it is primarily written for understanding by the next dispensation. 4. See 2. 5. See 4. 6. See 5. 7. While the concept of faith plus works is going to begin a firestorm as soon as certain other members see this thread, I am interested in thinking this concept through and comparing it to the Old Testament model(s), which I have generally concluded have ALSO been "faith alone" models and that there never has been and never will be a valid "faith+works" model. I'm mulling over what you've said and thinking about it, so. . . . Thanks for a very interesting thread topic, to say the least!  |
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Sept 17, 2017 19:01:56 GMT -6
I think I struggle in general with the interpret that Revelation isn't for the Church. God certainly isn't the author of confusion, I don't think he would have John call these letters to the 7 churches, only to have them in fact not be churches. Additionally, in the very opening, in Revelation 1:1, Jesus commanded John to write these thing in order to show his servants what must take place. The Greek word for servant is doulos, which in this context means bond-servant, or slave. The audience could not be Israel. The plain reading shows us that this was written to the Church, when we look at the original language, it is confirmed.
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Post by whatif on Sept 17, 2017 19:25:19 GMT -6
7. While the concept of faith plus works is going to begin a firestorm as soon as certain other members see this thread, I am interested in thinking this concept through and comparing it to the Old Testament model(s), which I have generally concluded have ALSO been "faith alone" models and that there never has been and never will be a valid "faith+works" model. I'm mulling over what you've said and thinking about it, so. . . . Thanks for a very interesting thread topic, to say the least! I agree with watchmanjim, henrym!
And because this topic has the potential for heated debate, I want to encourage all our forum members to keep the conversation graceful toward one another. (You're all doing fine so far, so I don't mean that caution is directed to any of the previous posts!)
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Post by uscgvet on Sept 17, 2017 19:37:12 GMT -6
"It starts with this - all of the book of Revelation is for Jews. None is for Christians (who are neither Jew nor Gentile)."
Ahh.... No. I think you failed to read the opening passage of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The first few verses.
Revelation 1:1
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him >>>to show His servants <<<—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."
Green = God the Father
Red = Jesus Christ
Blue = servants of Jesus Christ (John being one of the servants of Christ).
The whole prophecy of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is to Christ's servants!!!
You can do a complete word study of the Bible to discover who servants of Jesus Christ are.
Servants of Jesus Christ are NOT the Jews! In fact, Christ said MUCH WORSE words to describe the Jews in relation to Christ...
Jews had the Romans beat the absolute crap out of Christ, crown him with thorns, and then nailed Him to a cross!
Then after that, they stoned Stephen to death for quoting Isaiah 66! Then went after the rest of the servants of Jesus Christ.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on Sept 17, 2017 21:22:10 GMT -6
I applaud your e-reading prowess to make it through this tome staring at a screen. I have read it a few times. I think that he brought much light to the book. However, much has been learned since. I don't doubt that there will be some form of churches which will fit the roles of the seven in the tribulation, but I believe they were actual churches, known to John at the time. Also, they are a type of the whole church age, with us in the final phase, Laodicea. As to the faith plus works, yes I too believe this will apply during the tribulation. Ours is a special dispensation, in which grace alone is at work. If that were true during the tribulation, why warn believers not to take the mark? Robert Breaker made mention of this in this week's sermon. Main thing for us to know is Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. We will be gone before the time of the tribulation. That belief is clearly supported by Mr. Bullinger in his other writings. We will not hash this out in the next week. It is not ours to hash out. It is for those left behind. Let us focus on what we know in the days remaining. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 4:57:57 GMT -6
I don't get the objection to "faith+works" in the end times tribulation. One can't be saved if he or she takes the mark of the beast and worship the beast. That's work. Not taking the mark, denying the mark even under penalty of death, is work.
If misunderstanding is about making a work out of not doing something, 8 of 10 God's commandments are about "don't do this". Likewise for many if not most of Jesus' commands in the Gospels. And, during the end times tribulation, work of not taking the mark of the beast is a must in order to saved to eternal life. At least to me it seems as a must, based on Revelation 19 and 20.
By the way, I still suggest doing a research on Revelation. I provided one link as a jumpstart. Once you see that Revelation is not for Christians (in a sense of direct involvement, not in a sense of understanding the times), you probably can't unsee it. It's like those hidden 3d pictures.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 5:16:20 GMT -6
I don't doubt that there will be some form of churches which will fit the roles of the seven in the tribulation, but I believe they were actual churches, known to John at the time. Also, they are a type of the whole church age, with us in the final phase, Laodicea. I agree that there is a resembling of a church age in those seven letters. I think that's part of God's complex creation/message, where He provides multiple layers in one message. But I do think that's secondary layer to those letters. Those letters really sound like as if they are primarily written for non-Christian churches/assemblies in end times tribulation, although some churches, maybe Jewish assemblies in Asia who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, must have gotten those letters after John have written them, and we all can get wisdom from them. |
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andrew
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Post by andrew on Sept 18, 2017 7:34:59 GMT -6
Yes. It would appear to be a secondary application. I suppose it seems like more to focus on since we can see that part at work. It would be a break with literal interpretation to assume it merely applied to phases of the church age.
And the works literally rise to the level of commandment after the rapture. Do NOT take the mark.
I'm sure we will be amazed at how little of this book we understand as we see it all unfold.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 7:56:52 GMT -6
I don't get the objection to "faith+works" in the end times tribulation. One can't be saved if he or she takes the mark of the beast and worship the beast. That's work. Not taking the mark, denying the mark even under penalty of death, is work. @henrym , Perhaps I can shed some light on the objection to faith+works during the tribulation. Throughout scripture there has been one path to salvation - Jesus. This was true during the old testament times, it was true during the new testament times, it was true over the last 2000 years, and it will be true during the tribulation. It is true forever. Scriptures shows us that no one can be good enough. Scripture tells us faith is a gift. Jesus purchased the entirety of our debt and this includes those who will live during the tribulation. There is no act we can do or not do to add to the work that Christ finished. As a matter of fact, our attempt to hang onto some act that we can do to earn our worthiness is rebellion. God is calling us into his rest. He is at peace with us and asking us to be at peace with him. The great fallacy of any faith + works model is that it is a contradiction. You see, many would say, well faith = believing Jesus died as a substitute for me, others would say faith = believing Jesus rose again and raised me into the newness of life. And I could continue with various definitions of faith. But this is a grave misunderstanding of who God is and what faith is. You see it is actually quite simple: Our faith is not in the work Jesus did, not in the cross, not in the resurrection, not in the second coming, not in the law or the 10 commandments, not in the creation of the universe, or breathing of life into our bodies. Faith in any of these events or entities cannot save us. We may believe these things. But that is not where we place our faith. Our faith is in the person of Jesus - the Word of God. And therefore cannot include any work. It is an impossible combination. It can take years for Christians to understand this, especially in light of many hymns and worship songs that can tend to worship these events more than the savior. But over time, as we get to know Jesus, we know that it is Him in whom we place all of our confidence. Many christians have learned to trust in what Jesus did, but they still have yet to learn to trust in Him. In my next post, I will deal more directly with your point of contention - that is: A: Not taking the mark is a work B: One can't be saved if they take the mark C: Therefore, One is saved by works. Two stipulations - 1. we are only discussing the time during the tribulation, and 2. we will ignore the faith+ element, because according to the formula, even all the faith in the world would not be enough to save if one takes the mark. Therefore, we will assume we are only speaking of people who believe in Jesus and ignoring those who do not. Next post coming soon to a forum near you.... |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 18, 2017 8:13:04 GMT -6
Recently I realized something big. After stumbling on a couple of analyses, I realized that what most people know about the book of Revelation, me included, is wrong. And what I'm now convinced is the truth about Revelation can prove to be great confirmation for what's ahead. It starts with this - all of the book of Revelation is for Jews. None is for Christians (who are neither Jew nor Gentile). Not sure where you heard or got the idea that Christians are neither Jew nor Gentile. That's like saying Christians are neither Asian or White. Jesus and all the apostles were Jewish and the early church was predominantly Jewish, and as the Gospel spread and the Jews rejected the Messiah, the Gospel spread among Gentiles - (Gentiles are all races that are not Jewish) All of Revelation is for Jews?? This is not the case, because Christians are the Church who are raptured.
That includes seven letters to the churches. Those are not Christian churches. Those seem to be scattered Jewish assemblies existing during the end days. At best, they are assemblies of both Jews and new Gentile believers in God and Jesus Christ in the end days.
I could write a lot about why it is so, but other people have already done it. Among resources to study, I suggest reading this book online: www.ccel.org/ccel/bullinger/apocalypse.
Maybe just to mention, in short, that basically all phrases, values and commands given by Jesus to the Revelation churches are foreign to what Paul wrote to Christian churches. Some are not only foreign, but opposite to Paul's letters. At the same time, Jesus' message is perfectly in sync with the previous phrases, values and commands given to the Jews waiting for the Messiah to establish the Kingdom of Heaven. Revelation is peppered with about 400 references from Old Testament and practically no references from Paul's wording to Christians. And by the way, the use of the word "church" in Revelation 2 and 3 shouldn't be an issue at all, once you research it.
Anyway, basically everywhere you look in Revelation it is not about Christians, it is about Jews. What?? The 144,000 are Jews who accept the messiah. It explicitly says 144,000 sealed of the tribes of Israel and then it names the twelve tribes.
I used to wonder, for example, why is Jesus presented as Lamb throughout the Revelation. This morning I checked how many times Paul uses the word "lamb" in his epistles and found out that he doesn't use the word at all. There is not one single mention of "lamb" in Paul's epistles. What ?? 1 Corinthians 5:7
Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." Why? I guess because for all who believe in Christian gospel - that Jesus died for our sins and was raised on a third day - Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Saviour, the Son of God. Jesus is already in glory. But Jews are two thousand years behind. They are yet to see that Jesus is the Lamb of God, let alone their Messiah and Saviour. So before them, Jesus is still a Lamb, preparing them to see and understand Him as such, and then to go from there.
Interestingly, in all of this I came to a realization that New Jerusalem, described in Revelation, also seems not to be Christians' home. That's predominantly Jewish city for the millenium, with gates open for all the world. Where's the place for Christians then? Paul says it - in heavenly places. The same place where Christian citizenship is. Paul says that no eye can see and no mind can contemplate what God has prepared (in heaven) for those who love Him. How can John describe New Jerusalem then? Easily - Paul and John where not describing the same place. Paul was talking about home for Christians in heavenly places, which no eye can see and no mind can contemplate, while John was describing town stationed on Earth in the millenium, which our minds can contemplate to the extent.
I could go on and on, but for all who want to research how deep is Revelation tailored for the Jews and God's promise to the Jews, and not at all for Christians, go to the link I provided above. I might not agree with all that the author I referenced wrote, but it is a thorough study, great as a jumpstart. Or do your own research and insight.
Anyway, what does this all mean for here and now?
First, Revelation reveals new dispensation. Way to eternal life is not anymore by grace, through faith, as a gift from God, not of works so no one can boast, through Jesus' blood on the cross, but through faith plus works in not taking the mark of the beast nor worshipping the beast. Jesus labels it "overcoming". And since the book is all about Jews and Gentiles, not about Christians, that would suggest that as soon as events from Revelation happen, Christian dispensation is already over. And with that, based on Revelation and other scriptures, Christians are most likely not on Earth anymore.
The main message of Revelation to the Christians, it seems to be, is this: "When any of this happens, you are already gone. This is not for you or about you."
So, if a sign on September 23rd is indeed the Revelation 12 sign, and it looks like it is, that means that when it appears, Christian dispensation will most likely already be over. The sign announces the commencement of the new dispensation. It is the sign for what is about to happen, as some suggest, but not for Christians. It signals what's next for Jews and Gentiles in the end times tribulation.
And as the sign itself is within the new dispensation, being described in Revelation, that would place the rapture of Christians ahead it's appearing.
Additionaly, Revelation 12 sign doesn't necessarily have to be the start of the 70th week. But it very much looks like the start of the new dispensation. So there could be a gap between the rapture and the 70th week. But there is no gap between the rapture and the new dispensation. Right after the rapture, Christian dispensation ends and new one, revealed in letters to the seven churches, begins. And this new one is announced with the sign in the sky. Then, maybe right away, or some time later, 70th week begins.
P.S. By the way, right now I see even less how Revelation 12:5 has anything to do with the rapture of Christians. It more looks like the rapture of 144,000 virgins or tribulation saints. Especially when considering Biblical precedents with gaps between events prophecied within the same verse or passage, which makes it impossible to definitely conclude what's the timing of the rapture in Revelation 12:5 in relation to the whole chapter 12 and whole Revelation. But whatever the timing is, I don't think it's about Christians. Nothing in Revelation is about the rapture of Christians, in my view, not even the famous Revelation 4:1. Revelation is simply all about Jews and to the extent about tribulation saints.
P.P.S. There's a possibility that new dispensation starts while current doesn't end, negating the need for the rapture before 23rd. That was how our dispensation began. But we have one book, the book of Acts, that shows two dispensations intermingling, with one fading out and other fading in. So there's a clue in the Bible for that. (As a sidenote, dispensations didn't change abruptly on Pentecost because Gospel of Kingdom of Heaven was preached for years after Jesus' ressurection by the apostles and other disciples. Christian dispensation, along with the Christian Gospel, started later with Paul.) This time we have the book of Revelation, and Revelation is 100% about new dispensation. There is no intermingling. In Revelation there is no salvation by grace, through faith, as a gift of God, not of works so no one can boast, through Jesus' blood on the cross. In place of that Jesus proclaims lot of warnings and chastises people gathered in His name to do works and overcome or else be erased from the Book of Life. That suggests that our current dispensation has ended utterly by that time. Which is also in favor of the rapture before 23rd.
P.P.P.S. With this said, there is a possibility that the sign on 23rd is not the Revelation 12 sign, but something that only looks like it. I personally don't see that it isn't the real sign, all things considered. So all in all, with understanding that the sign on 23rd is actually the Revelation 12 sign, I think Bible reveals that the rapture happens before the sign occurs. Maybe seconds, or minutes, or hours or day before.Dear Henrym, Welcome to the Forum, ;-) Glad to have you here.! Everyone is entitled to their own view, whether it is the belief that Obama is the Anti-Christ, or that the Great Tribulation already passed, or belief in some mysterious, secret Planet Nibiru, that will suddently appear out of nowhere. We can expect that these views will be challenged based on how or why they don't match up with scripture -or What other passages confirm or shed light on this theory. - You seem to be very confused about Jews and Christians in the New Testament. - You say Paul never mentions lamb in the New Testament - ?? This is not a matter of interpretation - this is factually wrong. Paul explicitly said that Christ is our Passover Lamb. 1 Corinthians 5:7
Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." - Jesus and all the 12 Disciples were Jewish, as was Paul and the Early church was made of Jewish converts to Christianity. - You say Christians are neither Jew nor Gentile. This is factually incorrect. The early church was a mixture of Predominantly Jewish Christians, and then became more and more Gentile Christians. The Church at Corinth was predominantly Gentile, because Corinth was a large industrial multi-cultural metropolis. - There is a Jewish race which is as real as Japanese or Swedish - which is why the Levite priests had to be from the tribe of Levi. Then there is the Jewish religion, and which people of any race can convert. You can be a Chinese Jew, or a Polish Jew, or there are people who are Jewish race/ ethnicity and are atheists. -When Jews become Christians, they don't become less Jewish. Nor are they suddenly Gentile. Many Jews who have accepted the Messiah call themselves Messianic Jews, and many others prefer the term "Completed Jew." - I think most prophecy teachers and end-times teachers or watchmen/women would agree that the Tribulation is known as the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and as such, many believe that Christians will be raptured out, but you should know that tens of millions believe that the Christians will be raptured in the Middle of the Tribulation, and millions more believe Christians will go through the entire Tribulation. - While there is disagreement about Pre-trib rapture, vs Post tribulation rapture, there is near universal consensus that the Jews will get a second chance and their eyes will be opened after the mid-point, when the abomination of desolation happens in the temple. ;-) Hope this helps clarify. Blessings.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 18, 2017 9:01:19 GMT -6
I don't get the objection to "faith+works" in the end times tribulation. One can't be saved if he or she takes the mark of the beast and worship the beast. That's work. Not taking the mark, denying the mark even under penalty of death, is work. If misunderstanding is about making a work out of not doing something, 8 of 10 God's commandments are about "don't do this". Likewise for many if not most of Jesus' commands in the Gospels. And, during the end times tribulation, work of not taking the mark of the beast is a must in order to saved to eternal life. At least to me it seems as a must, based on Revelation 19 and 20. By the way, I still suggest doing a research on Revelation. I provided one link as a jumpstart. Once you see that Revelation is not for Christians (in a sense of direct involvement, not in a sense of understanding the times), you probably can't unsee it. It's like those hidden 3d pictures. Not taking the mark, is not a work, in the same way that keeping God's command of not stealing is not "a work". You are right in that anyone who takes the mark - it's a done deal, and can't be undone. These will not escape punishment. But this is not a work, or works-based faith, as you seem to imply. Works has nothing to do with whether the words say Do this or Don't do this. Works is the false notion that my 'good deeds' can outweigh my bad deeds, or that by doing good works, I can earn righteousness - right standing with God. This is most common in Catholicism, and Islam. People believe that by giving alms , or fasting, or praying 'hail Mary's' or going to confession or being baptized saves them. This is works- based and heresy. Christ paid the penalty for our sin on the cross, and he became the Passover lamb - fulfilling Passover perfectly. James also says clearly that faith without works is dead. One of the biggest keys in understanding 'works' is looking at this in terms of fruit. Works-based (false faith, such as Catholocism) is that my good deeds are the source of my salvation. - False notion that I do the works, I produce the fruit. Christ is the vine, we are the branches - we abide - hang out in him, and the natural result is that the branch bears fruit. Works are the result of our faith, not the source of it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 9:29:02 GMT -6
@henrym , Ok, now let's deal more directly with your point of contention - that is: A: Not taking the mark is a work B: One can't be saved if they take the mark C: Therefore, One is saved by works. Two stipulations - 1. we are only discussing the time during the tribulation, and 2. we will ignore the faith+ element, because according to the formula, even all the faith in the world would not be enough to save if one takes the mark. Therefore, we will assume we are only speaking of people who believe in Jesus and ignoring those who do not. Let’s look at B first - what is involved in “taking the mark” Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. As you can see, there is a tight connection between receiving the mark and worshiping the beast - to the point that receiving the mark is always connected to worshiping the beast. So Let’s look at who worships the beast Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Here we see that those that will worship the beast are those who’s names have not been written in the book of life. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that those who are believers will not worship the beast and will not take the mark. These scriptures do not indicate whether this lack of worship is due to a “work of the believer” or a “work of the Lord.” So either answer is reasonable and the rest of scripture would need to be consulted to determine if one answer was better than the other. We do know that He is the author and finisher of our work and that where we are unfaithful, He is faithful. So from our original formula: A: is not proven to be a work of ourselves. B: is non existent since no one written in the book of life(saved) will take the mark and worship the beast, This leaves us with no conditions upon which to base a conclusion. * * * I would add, due to the incredibly difficult nature of the Book of Revelation, would we really want to overturn the overwhelming message of grace through faith spoken of throughout the bible based on our limited understanding of the mark and the beast? This is not our Lord. He does not operate that way. His grace is sufficient for me, and for all those alive during the tribulation. His grace has always been and will always be. I might as well face it - I'm addicted to (His) love! EDIT: I should note, it is also possible that my interpretations of taking the mark are incorrect. My point is not to "prove that I am right about the mark." My point is to demonstrate that I could be right. And in so doing, that it provides a way that Works is absent from the equation. disciple4life shows another way - all our righteousness is via our faith - see Hebrews 11. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 10:11:15 GMT -6
Everything will come to light, so I will not reply to comments above. Hopefully some readers will research the topic if it's new to them, including the link I provided.
Maybe to answer a comment about Paul using the word "lamb" once in his epistles:
In fact Paul didn't use the word "lamb", not even once. Original word used in 1 Corinthians 5:7 is pascha, which means passover, which transaltors in this verse translated not as passover but as "passover lamb", as a deducted meaning. King James Bible translates it just as passover, as that's what reads in the sentence. Out of 29 mentions of the word pascha in New Testament, only three times some translations translated it deductively as "passover lamb", maybe for easier understanding. But the word lamb in Revelation is literal greek word for lamb, not pascha/passover.
Anyway, only one mention of the word which holds deducted meaning in only one out of all Paul's epistles doesn't make a doctrine out of it (just the opposite), compared to 26 mentions of the literal word Lamb in Revelation only.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 10:44:02 GMT -6
It would appear that the original poster has removed himself from the board and the conversation. Since this appears to be where this thread will die, I wanted to leave a parting message to those who may follow:
Yes, all will come to light. When it does we will see just how magnificent our savior is! We will see that he is the lamb for all, not just one nation or people group. We will see that his work is what purchased our salvation. And though we may at times not be able to perfectly understand some portions of scripture, we can trust Him and His character.
Think about it:
If salvation were really as easy as being killed instead of taking the mark - then all of us would cry out for that chance right now. Bring it on. Eternal life simply for the choice to die verses taking a mark and worshiping the beast? Really? That's easy! Kill me now! I'll take heaven forever.
No - salvation is much harder than that. It's impossible. So hard, actually, that only one being in the universe can accomplish it - and He already has. As soon as we add some work that we can do, we make the work that Christ does seem very cheap. I encourage you, if you wonder about these things, ask the Lord to show you the truth about his grace. Ask him to reveal who he really is to you in a way that perhaps, he has not yet done.
There is no other name by which men can be saved. Not Jim, Not Henry, Not Paul - just Jesus.
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