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Post by disciple4life on Feb 15, 2020 10:53:53 GMT -6
Hello yardstick. Good questions, my brother. I certainly don't have all the answers, but here's two thoughts. For me it works. 1. There is the four spring feasts which i and many others see as being inseparably linked with the First Advent. Then ... wait for it ... a long gap. Hmm between the spring feasts and the fall feasts. This "gap" is where we are now, and while people don't all agree on the role or significance of the feasts, there is not a single well known end- times scholar who thinks Feast of Trumpets has been fulfilled. The reason it signifies the end of the harvest in the year, is that it could represent the end of the age of the Gentiles, and beginning the Time of Jacob's troubles- when the eyes of all Jews will be unveiled. 2. Then in Matthew 24, the famous Olivette discourse we see the idiom again, but this time referring to the second coming-- not the rapture. vs 29 and 30, which is after the sun is dark and moon turns to blood, [and after the greatest Tribulation which there ever was and ever will be] and after the Abominations of desolation, we see the same idiom again. This time linked with the second coming.😱☠ Catch this -End of Harvest of Jews and Tribulation saints, and hey, we have 7 years to the Feast of Trumpets. 1260 days is 3 1/2 years of Prophetic months. 1260 days = 3 1/2 years Plus a separate period of 1290 days= 3 1/2 years plus a leap month added. Hmmm. Perry Stone also points out that the Day of Atonement represents the Tribulation. Day of atonement/ Yom kippur is when the door of heaven is shut,[ and btw Jews around the world still believe this] and Judgment is poured out. Feast of Booths/ Sukkot is The millennial reign. End of Rev says that all nations of the earth - Jews and Gentiles will celebrate Feast of Booths/ Sukkot. Wow. wow!!!. This also confirms the pattern and the order of the feasts. It also makes 100% sense that the Messiah would provoke the Jewish people when he comes and takes a Gentile Bride, on the day recognized by the Jews as Wedding Day and Resurrection. 🤣🤯🥳, Maranatha |
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Post by venge on Feb 15, 2020 14:01:34 GMT -6
Here we go again /sigh Nelson mentions as his biggest argument against a 7th Trumpet rapture that Zechariah 9:14 shows God appears over his people and he blows a trumpet himself. My question for Nelson is, how do I know that is the 7th Trumpet? Or the Trumpet of God and not some other event from the past? Using 1 verse to say it matches up with another limits evidential support. What he fails to explain w/the 7th angel is that: 1. the angel cries out 2. the angel is a mighty angel - why is that? 3. the angel can be identified as an archangel because he stands in the presence of God which archangels are shown to do whereas all other angels stand round about the throne room. 4. the archangels were given trumpets from God (Trumpet of God?) 5. the angel is shown with the flood covenant. That the seed by faith will be saved from the flood. These are very small details he misses on, and only a few I will mention. He is knowledgeable on many fronts, but it was sad to see him resort to the KJV aorist for came or had come in relation to the rewards of Rev 11. It lead him to be finished, rather then search, for other basics queues that brightly stand out such as the harvest, the wedding etc. For every video I see on the internet that says the 7th Trumpet is wrong, I find one that says a Mid Trib is wrong, a Pre TB is wrong, a Pre Wrath is wrong. And each of these videos, even if I agree with their pretense, I find inaccuracies and subject skipping by the owners who all claim they are right. Study to show thyself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed. Rightly dividing...Videos can be dangerous even when they agree with our own positions whether prophetic or even morals and ethics. Study scripture and decide for yourself and let others decide for themselves. A video wont help with that, especially one that misses soo much content on the subject. On a side note, the statement in the quote at the beginning of this post was made by this same Nelson Waters against Pre TB theory here: www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/the-rapture/will-there-be-a-pre-trib-rapture/But I would say to that again, do you believe a dentist who is blogging his own interpretation and selling books or study yourself - rightly dividing and letting the HS guide you? I liked what yardstick said. Now your thinking outside the box.  Maybe I will show you my notes one day- rather then bread crumbs yardstick. Hope all is well, with love. |
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 15, 2020 18:20:50 GMT -6
Here we go again /sigh Nelson mentions as his biggest argument against a 7th Trumpet rapture that Zechariah 9:14 shows God appears over his people and he blows a trumpet himself. My question for Nelson is, how do I know that is the 7th Trumpet? Or the Trumpet of God and not some other event from the past? Using 1 verse to say it matches up with another limits evidential support. What he fails to explain w/the 7th angel is that: 1. the angel cries out 2. the angel is a mighty angel - why is that? 3. the angel can be identified as an archangel because he stands in the presence of God which archangels are shown to do whereas all other angels stand round about the throne room. 4. the archangels were given trumpets from God (Trumpet of God?) 5. the angel is shown with the flood covenant. That the seed by faith will be saved from the flood. These are very small details he misses on, and only a few I will mention. He is knowledgeable on many fronts, but it was sad to see him resort to the KJV aorist for came or had come in relation to the rewards of Rev 11. It lead him to be finished, rather then search, for other basics queues that brightly stand out such as the harvest, the wedding etc. For every video I see on the internet that says the 7th Trumpet is wrong, I find one that says a Mid Trib is wrong, a Pre TB is wrong, a Pre Wrath is wrong. And each of these videos, even if I agree with their pretense, I find inaccuracies and subject skipping by the owners who all claim they are right. Study to show thyself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed. Rightly dividing...Videos can be dangerous even when they agree with our own positions whether prophetic or even morals and ethics. Study scripture and decide for yourself and let others decide for themselves. A video wont help with that, especially one that misses soo much content on the subject. On a side note, the statement in the quote at the beginning of this post was made by this same Nelson Waters against Pre TB theory here: www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/the-rapture/will-there-be-a-pre-trib-rapture/But I would say to that again, do you believe a dentist who is blogging his own interpretation and selling books or study yourself - rightly dividing and letting the HS guide you?
A few points that I think are important. 1. I'm not sure Whether his "Biggest argument" was that he linked/connected Zachar 9 (implying that was the 7th trumpet) ?? I don't think Nelson does this. That doesn't make sense because Zachariah was written more than 400 years before Christ even lived, and John's revelation was almost at the end of the 1st century. The point of the Zechariah 9 passage was to point out that it was not angels blowing the trumpets - like the 7 angels in Revelation but God himself.
2. When we simply look at the passage of the 7 trumpets in Revelation 10 and 11, there are 7 separate angels - not simultaneously, and each of them blew his own trumpet. The fact that God gave them the trumpets is irrelevant. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet and there were loud voices in heaven saying, "The Kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ. ..."
People see these events and by extrapolation, assume that the 7th trumpet is the last of the series, so therefore, it is the "Last Trumpet". The problem is that it's not only poor hermeneutics, but it's not the Trump of God. - The text clearly says that the angels blow these trumpets themselves - not God himself. Multiple Bible scholars and even Jewish rabbis, both Christian and Non-Christian confirm that this is a widely-known Hebrew Idiom that all the audience instantly recognized, and is a explicitly clear reference to the Feast of Trumpets, and specifically the 100th blast - Tekia Gadolah. We as 21st Century westerners are totally removed from the language, customs and culture of the NT Testament. 3.Then, when we cross-reference the passage of Revelation 10 and 11, with the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:52, we can see a huge contrast in the length of time of the events themselves.
I'm not sure why it matters whether the person is a Dentist who does extensive study and cross-referencing, who sells books, or a non-clergy person like Scott Clarke, or Paul Watchman Dawson, or a Jewish Rabbi like Mark Biltz. Do they seek the guidance of the HS and do they follow sound principles of Hermeneutics. ??
Here's a clear explanation from a well-known commentary - and I don't think they are dentists.
"The seventh trumpet covers an extended period of time, thus distinguishing it from the instantaneous (“in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” event of the “last trumpet.” Instead of calling for the moment of the Rapture of the church, as the “last trumpet” does, the seventh trumpet calls for prolonged waves of judgment on the ungodly. It does not parallel the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 1Cor. 15:52, but does parallel the trumpet of Joel Joel 2:1-2: “Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; surely it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness.” www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-11/revelation-11-15.html
4. The other compelling point he and other scholars make is that the Revelation of John by Christ was not even given until the end of the 1st century. The book of 1 Corinthians was written almost 40 years before John even received the revelation of the 7 trumpets. Not only would it make no sense whatsoever to the hearers, but it would be impossible for Paul to tell the Christians of something that would not even be revealed until 40 years in the future. It violates the principle that the NT was written in Koine, [Common Greek] language. The language that was used and understood by Fishermen, farmers and slaves, not classical Greek.
Further there is not a single example in scripture of this phenomena happening, and to make this huge assumption is eisegesis - reading into the text something that was not there.
5. We have a plethora of examples of God doing things with precision and order and by sovereign plan and design. The Feasts are appointed times, and the Hebrew word, Moadim is also translated as "rehearsal" When we see God's pattern, and his appointed times, - Paul said that they are a "shadow of things to come" - rehearsal, and they all point to the Messiah. The next one in order, that has not yet been fulfilled is the Feast of Trumpets.
We know that Christ already fulfilled the first four, and we also know that the last one - Feast of Booths/ Sukkot will be celebrated by all the nations of the earth, Jew and Gentile, in the Millennial reign so that only leaves two - Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement .
Here's another excerpt from a commentary, explaining precisely how the Last Trumpet is Feast of Trumpets.
seventh angel sounded
"The seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet (Rev. Rev. 8:2+). This last of the seven trumpets is not to be confused with the “last trump” which attends the Rapture.1
This cannot be what is meant by the last trump [1Cor. 1Cor. 15:52]; at the time that I Corinthians was written, John had not written Revelation. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of the seven trumpets. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament, especially those of the Feast of Trumpets.
The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets at this feast each year. During the ceremony there are a series of short trumpet sounds concluding with one long trumpet blast which is called the tekiah gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump." www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-11/revelation-11-15.html
I also encourage all believers to search the scriptures, pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us, and use sound principles of Bible interpretation - cross- reference, and look at the cultural, historical and linguistic context, and consider that fact of who wrote the NT, all were Jewish writers except 1, Luke, and where was it written/ and who was the audience?? Early church was predominantly Jewish, whose entire secular and religious world revolved around the Shabbat. - 7 Feasts, and weekly Shabbat.
Then, whether you are a dentist or a missionary or construction worker, make your own decision.
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Post by venge on Feb 16, 2020 12:19:21 GMT -6
The point I was trying to make disciple4life , was not his chosen profession. It doesn't matter whether someone is a dentist or a janitor....a lawyer or a school teacher. Each has their role in God's kingdom and each has gifts given to use for Him. My point was that Nelson is Pre-Wrath and has written just as many articles and videos denouncing Pre TB as lies and falsehood as he has with 7th Trumpet. This is to push his own opinion on the Pre Wrath theory. That is why I said that we can find videos, like you had, that suggest someone else (Pre TB, Mid TB, Post TB, Pre wrath) is wrong. If I linked a video demonstrating 50 ways Pre TB was wrong, does that make the video right? Does that allow me to say Aha! Pre TB is lies? That is essentially what you did with 7th Trumpet believers. Instead, I said we need to be careful of these videos because many people put them out and we don't know their fruit unless you know this guy personally and can attest for the last 5 years his spiritual condition. We need to not only be careful because there are wolves in sheep's clothing, but anyone can make a video saying a few catch phrases and bullet points from random books and say here is the proof. Yet he, as I said earlier, misses out on so much content. Because he is not looking for it and instead ignores it. This is because he is focused only on his own view of Pre Wrath. That doesn't mean he cannot be right on every example or that he doesn't make a good point here or there. That is why I said we need to learn from the word of God, not some random video with the intention to push their own belief. If you are Pre TB, do you need to search out other pre TB videos in order to stir confidence in your own belief? Or do you feel it comes from your study of God's word? I'd assume it comes from your own study and that is good and worthy and exactly how it should be - rightly dividing the word of truth. The videos are like movies...they are faster then reading, they bring things in quick and easy yet they are never like the original book leaving out important info. I am sure I am not telling you something you don't already know, but I feel its important to recognize it because I think you misunderstand my intention. All the examples of things you demonstrate I have read or heard of from anyone against the 7th Trumpet and I am not deterred. No different then everything you have heard against Pre TB; yet you are not deterred. You may think to yourself...how do these people not understand PRE TB is right and I could say the same. You see something that I do not see is there and vice versa...you do not see what I see is there. I don't fault you for that and I hope you don't fault me. But the constant posts that say anything other then your view is wrong...does that invalidate another's prophetic belief they may have received from the HS? Do you know why I don't write a giant article on the 7th trumpet complete with scripture? It's not because I cannot nor is it that I haven't. It's because it serves no purpose when there are ears that refuse to hear. When something that is a blessing to one causes a defense mechanism in others, sometimes it's better to not cause anger and bridle ones tongue. I am not your enemy brother and I hope you understand that. I'd suggest if you are adamant proving the 7th trumpet is wrong, take the position it could be right. With careful study, all you can do is increase your knowledge in the word regardless of the outcome. And that is a blessing because it makes us stronger and firmer in his word. The joy of love in Christ...isn't wonderful to be a Christian! |
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Post by yardstick on Feb 16, 2020 20:57:44 GMT -6
Here we go again /sigh Nelson mentions as his biggest argument against a 7th Trumpet rapture that Zechariah 9:14 shows God appears over his people and he blows a trumpet himself. My question for Nelson is, how do I know that is the 7th Trumpet? Or the Trumpet of God and not some other event from the past? Using 1 verse to say it matches up with another limits evidential support. What he fails to explain w/the 7th angel is that: 1. the angel cries out 2. the angel is a mighty angel - why is that? 3. the angel can be identified as an archangel because he stands in the presence of God which archangels are shown to do whereas all other angels stand round about the throne room. 4. the archangels were given trumpets from God (Trumpet of God?) 5. the angel is shown with the flood covenant. That the seed by faith will be saved from the flood. These are very small details he misses on, and only a few I will mention. He is knowledgeable on many fronts, but it was sad to see him resort to the KJV aorist for came or had come in relation to the rewards of Rev 11. It lead him to be finished, rather then search, for other basics queues that brightly stand out such as the harvest, the wedding etc. For every video I see on the internet that says the 7th Trumpet is wrong, I find one that says a Mid Trib is wrong, a Pre TB is wrong, a Pre Wrath is wrong. And each of these videos, even if I agree with their pretense, I find inaccuracies and subject skipping by the owners who all claim they are right. Study to show thyself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed. Rightly dividing...Videos can be dangerous even when they agree with our own positions whether prophetic or even morals and ethics. Study scripture and decide for yourself and let others decide for themselves. A video wont help with that, especially one that misses soo much content on the subject. On a side note, the statement in the quote at the beginning of this post was made by this same Nelson Waters against Pre TB theory here: www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/the-rapture/will-there-be-a-pre-trib-rapture/But I would say to that again, do you believe a dentist who is blogging his own interpretation and selling books or study yourself - rightly dividing and letting the HS guide you?
A few points that I think are important. 1. I'm not sure Whether his "Biggest argument" was that he linked/connected Zachar 9 (implying that was the 7th trumpet) ?? I don't think Nelson does this. That doesn't make sense because Zachariah was written more than 400 years before Christ even lived, and John's revelation was almost at the end of the 1st century. The point of the Zechariah 9 passage was to point out that it was not angels blowing the trumpets - like the 7 angels in Revelation but God himself.
2. When we simply look at the passage of the 7 trumpets in Revelation 10 and 11, there are 7 separate angels - not simultaneously, and each of them blew his own trumpet. The fact that God gave them the trumpets is irrelevant. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet and there were loud voices in heaven saying, "The Kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ. ..."
People see these events and by extrapolation, assume that the 7th trumpet is the last of the series, so therefore, it is the "Last Trumpet". The problem is that it's not only poor hermeneutics, but it's not the Trump of God. - The text clearly says that the angels blow these trumpets themselves - not God himself. Multiple Bible scholars and even Jewish rabbis, both Christian and Non-Christian confirm that this is a widely-known Hebrew Idiom that all the audience instantly recognized, and is a explicitly clear reference to the Feast of Trumpets, and specifically the 100th blast - Tekia Gadolah. We as 21st Century westerners are totally removed from the language, customs and culture of the NT Testament. 3.Then, when we cross-reference the passage of Revelation 10 and 11, with the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:52, we can see a huge contrast in the length of time of the events themselves.
I'm not sure why it matters whether the person is a Dentist who does extensive study and cross-referencing, who sells books, or a non-clergy person like Scott Clarke, or Paul Watchman Dawson, or a Jewish Rabbi like Mark Biltz. Do they seek the guidance of the HS and do they follow sound principles of Hermeneutics. ??
Here's a clear explanation from a well-known commentary - and I don't think they are dentists.
"The seventh trumpet covers an extended period of time, thus distinguishing it from the instantaneous (“in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” event of the “last trumpet.” Instead of calling for the moment of the Rapture of the church, as the “last trumpet” does, the seventh trumpet calls for prolonged waves of judgment on the ungodly. It does not parallel the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 1Cor. 15:52, but does parallel the trumpet of Joel Joel 2:1-2: “Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; surely it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness.” www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-11/revelation-11-15.html
4. The other compelling point he and other scholars make is that the Revelation of John by Christ was not even given until the end of the 1st century. The book of 1 Corinthians was written almost 40 years before John even received the revelation of the 7 trumpets. Not only would it make no sense whatsoever to the hearers, but it would be impossible for Paul to tell the Christians of something that would not even be revealed until 40 years in the future. It violates the principle that the NT was written in Koine, [Common Greek] language. The language that was used and understood by Fishermen, farmers and slaves, not classical Greek.
Further there is not a single example in scripture of this phenomena happening, and to make this huge assumption is eisegesis - reading into the text something that was not there.
5. We have a plethora of examples of God doing things with precision and order and by sovereign plan and design. The Feasts are appointed times, and the Hebrew word, Moadim is also translated as "rehearsal" When we see God's pattern, and his appointed times, - Paul said that they are a "shadow of things to come" - rehearsal, and they all point to the Messiah. The next one in order, that has not yet been fulfilled is the Feast of Trumpets.
We know that Christ already fulfilled the first four, and we also know that the last one - Feast of Booths/ Sukkot will be celebrated by all the nations of the earth, Jew and Gentile, in the Millennial reign so that only leaves two - Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement .
Here's another excerpt from a commentary, explaining precisely how the Last Trumpet is Feast of Trumpets.
seventh angel sounded
"The seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet (Rev. Rev. 8:2+). This last of the seven trumpets is not to be confused with the “last trump” which attends the Rapture.1
This cannot be what is meant by the last trump [1Cor. 1Cor. 15:52]; at the time that I Corinthians was written, John had not written Revelation. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of the seven trumpets. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament, especially those of the Feast of Trumpets.
The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets at this feast each year. During the ceremony there are a series of short trumpet sounds concluding with one long trumpet blast which is called the tekiah gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump." www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-11/revelation-11-15.html
I also encourage all believers to search the scriptures, pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us, and use sound principles of Bible interpretation - cross- reference, and look at the cultural, historical and linguistic context, and consider that fact of who wrote the NT, all were Jewish writers except 1, Luke, and where was it written/ and who was the audience?? Early church was predominantly Jewish, whose entire secular and religious world revolved around the Shabbat. - 7 Feasts, and weekly Shabbat.
Then, whether you are a dentist or a missionary or construction worker, make your own decision.
While I agree that the moadim hypothesis may be valid, I must point out that other than Paul's statement ('shadows of things to come'), I have not been able to find anything explicitly stated in scripture that Jesus came to fulfill the feasts. I think it is an intriguing pattern that makes one's eyebrows go up, but I would point out that Paul's statement chronologically occurred after the supposed fulfillment of the first four feasts. So it is very likely he drew the same conclusion and has hinted at it. This is most likely as far as I would go - the hypothesis is drawn from inference. We must be careful not to 'eisegesis' what might be an otherwise interesting coincidence. That said, if there are three left, then it would seem to me that since the Feast of Booths is clearly hinted at in scripture as in the millennium, there is nothing to say that it is not representative of the first day of the millennium (and all Feast of Booth holidays after that fall on the same day each year, roughly). If someone is suggesting that the Feast of Booths is descriptive of the entire millennium, then I would have to ask if they drew the same conclusion about the first four, the Feast of Atonement (perpetual, or one-time event?) and the Feast of Trumpets (perpetual, or one-time event?). I would expect some consistency in the pattern. For me that means the Feast of Trumpets would have to be the Harpazo, the Feast of Atonement - the Second Coming, and the Feast of Booths, the set up of the millennial kingdom, where Christ begins to rule on earth for the millennium. Do you think the nature and understanding of Harpazo, Atonement and Booths is commensurate with the events that occur at these times? If not, what is the discrepancy and why? disciple4life , venge , Also, I would advise anyone commenting here, that it is important to focus on the topic, not the poster, lest we fall into the Rule #3 category. Remember that at least for this topic, it is a non-essential. That means it is less important who is right, and more important that we have the 'most likely' answer (regardless of who promulgates it); with other answers held in reserve until the preferred answer (shameless Occam's Razor plug) has enough doubt cast on it that it be either set aside or 'reduced in rank' in favor of another. |
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Post by yardstick on Feb 16, 2020 21:04:29 GMT -6
The point I was trying to make disciple4life , was not his chosen profession. It doesn't matter whether someone is a dentist or a janitor....a lawyer or a school teacher. Each has their role in God's kingdom and each has gifts given to use for Him. My point was that Nelson is Pre-Wrath and has written just as many articles and videos denouncing Pre TB as lies and falsehood as he has with 7th Trumpet. This is to push his own opinion on the Pre Wrath theory. That is why I said that we can find videos, like you had, that suggest someone else (Pre TB, Mid TB, Post TB, Pre wrath) is wrong. If I linked a video demonstrating 50 ways Pre TB was wrong, does that make the video right? Does that allow me to say Aha! Pre TB is lies? That is essentially what you did with 7th Trumpet believers. Instead, I said we need to be careful of these videos because many people put them out and we don't know their fruit unless you know this guy personally and can attest for the last 5 years his spiritual condition. We need to not only be careful because there are wolves in sheep's clothing, but anyone can make a video saying a few catch phrases and bullet points from random books and say here is the proof. Yet he, as I said earlier, misses out on so much content. Because he is not looking for it and instead ignores it. This is because he is focused only on his own view of Pre Wrath. That doesn't mean he cannot be right on every example or that he doesn't make a good point here or there. That is why I said we need to learn from the word of God, not some random video with the intention to push their own belief. If you are Pre TB, do you need to search out other pre TB videos in order to stir confidence in your own belief? Or do you feel it comes from your study of God's word? I'd assume it comes from your own study and that is good and worthy and exactly how it should be - rightly dividing the word of truth. The videos are like movies...they are faster then reading, they bring things in quick and easy yet they are never like the original book leaving out important info. I am sure I am not telling you something you don't already know, but I feel its important to recognize it because I think you misunderstand my intention. All the examples of things you demonstrate I have read or heard of from anyone against the 7th Trumpet and I am not deterred. No different then everything you have heard against Pre TB; yet you are not deterred. You may think to yourself...how do these people not understand PRE TB is right and I could say the same. You see something that I do not see is there and vice versa...you do not see what I see is there. I don't fault you for that and I hope you don't fault me. But the constant posts that say anything other then your view is wrong...does that invalidate another's prophetic belief they may have received from the HS? Do you know why I don't write a giant article on the 7th trumpet complete with scripture? It's not because I cannot nor is it that I haven't. It's because it serves no purpose when there are ears that refuse to hear. When something that is a blessing to one causes a defense mechanism in others, sometimes it's better to not cause anger and bridle ones tongue. I am not your enemy brother and I hope you understand that. I'd suggest if you are adamant proving the 7th trumpet is wrong, take the position it could be right. With careful study, all you can do is increase your knowledge in the word regardless of the outcome. And that is a blessing because it makes us stronger and firmer in his word. The joy of love in Christ...isn't wonderful to be a Christian! I believe I would disagree with you on this point. Have you considered that by refusing to provide the information, you deny someone the opportunity to change their mind when presented with new evidence or a well supported different view? Even if there are those who did not want to hear; that did not prevent God from sending his prophets to the people of Israel. Nor did it prevent Jesus from teaching multitudes. The Pharisees were right there most of the time, dont you think? There have been several people whose opinions have changed when presented with new evidence or a different well expressed perspective on these boards already. I would point out that it's not our job to convince or convict. That is the Holy Spirit's job. We are just supposed to be the messengers. Iron sharpens iron, right? It is to be expected that some of us are a little more dull than others. You should share your research and understanding. Even if many do not agree. |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 16, 2020 21:57:17 GMT -6
I'm currently doing a study on Jesus in the OT, and am part way through a video on the fall feasts. Like the pastor did, what if we just look at what the Bible tells us about Feasts of Trumpets? (I added emphasis) Lev 23:23-25 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall observe a day of solemn rest, a memorial proclaimed with blast of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, and you shall present a food offering to the LORD." Numbers 10 tells about the two silver trumpets they were to make and what to do with them. 10:10 "On the day of your gladness also, and at your appointed feasts and at the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings. They shall be a reminder of you before your God; I am the LORD your God."
The thought is, a reminder for God to do good to them, but it would also be a reminder of the people to turn to God.
Nehemiah 8 takes place on the first day of the seventh month. Ezra read from the Book of the Law of Moses and the people were grieved. But Nehemiah, Ezra and the Levites said to the people, 8:9-10 "This day is holy to the LORD your God; do not mourn or weep." For all the people wept as they heard the words of the Law. Then he said to them, "Go your way. Eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, for this day is holy to our Lord. And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (It goes on to say that they went away to "make great rejoicing".)
Numbers 29:1-6 Gives more details on the sacrifices that were to be made, reiterates that it is a holy convocation and a day of blowing trumpets.
Are there any other passages that are clearly about the feast?
So, a holy day, a memorial, that God may remember them, a time of rejoicing. That's pretty much what I see.
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Post by venge on Feb 17, 2020 4:01:21 GMT -6
The point I was trying to make disciple4life , was not his chosen profession. It doesn't matter whether someone is a dentist or a janitor....a lawyer or a school teacher. Each has their role in God's kingdom and each has gifts given to use for Him. My point was that Nelson is Pre-Wrath and has written just as many articles and videos denouncing Pre TB as lies and falsehood as he has with 7th Trumpet. This is to push his own opinion on the Pre Wrath theory. That is why I said that we can find videos, like you had, that suggest someone else (Pre TB, Mid TB, Post TB, Pre wrath) is wrong. If I linked a video demonstrating 50 ways Pre TB was wrong, does that make the video right? Does that allow me to say Aha! Pre TB is lies? That is essentially what you did with 7th Trumpet believers. Instead, I said we need to be careful of these videos because many people put them out and we don't know their fruit unless you know this guy personally and can attest for the last 5 years his spiritual condition. We need to not only be careful because there are wolves in sheep's clothing, but anyone can make a video saying a few catch phrases and bullet points from random books and say here is the proof. Yet he, as I said earlier, misses out on so much content. Because he is not looking for it and instead ignores it. This is because he is focused only on his own view of Pre Wrath. That doesn't mean he cannot be right on every example or that he doesn't make a good point here or there. That is why I said we need to learn from the word of God, not some random video with the intention to push their own belief. If you are Pre TB, do you need to search out other pre TB videos in order to stir confidence in your own belief? Or do you feel it comes from your study of God's word? I'd assume it comes from your own study and that is good and worthy and exactly how it should be - rightly dividing the word of truth. The videos are like movies...they are faster then reading, they bring things in quick and easy yet they are never like the original book leaving out important info. I am sure I am not telling you something you don't already know, but I feel its important to recognize it because I think you misunderstand my intention. All the examples of things you demonstrate I have read or heard of from anyone against the 7th Trumpet and I am not deterred. No different then everything you have heard against Pre TB; yet you are not deterred. You may think to yourself...how do these people not understand PRE TB is right and I could say the same. You see something that I do not see is there and vice versa...you do not see what I see is there. I don't fault you for that and I hope you don't fault me. But the constant posts that say anything other then your view is wrong...does that invalidate another's prophetic belief they may have received from the HS? Do you know why I don't write a giant article on the 7th trumpet complete with scripture? It's not because I cannot nor is it that I haven't. It's because it serves no purpose when there are ears that refuse to hear. When something that is a blessing to one causes a defense mechanism in others, sometimes it's better to not cause anger and bridle ones tongue. I am not your enemy brother and I hope you understand that. I'd suggest if you are adamant proving the 7th trumpet is wrong, take the position it could be right. With careful study, all you can do is increase your knowledge in the word regardless of the outcome. And that is a blessing because it makes us stronger and firmer in his word. The joy of love in Christ...isn't wonderful to be a Christian! I believe I would disagree with you on this point. Have you considered that by refusing to provide the information, you deny someone the opportunity to change their mind when presented with new evidence or a well supported different view? Even if there are those who did not want to hear; that did not prevent God from sending his prophets to the people of Israel. Nor did it prevent Jesus from teaching multitudes. The Pharisees were right there most of the time, dont you think? There have been several people whose opinions have changed when presented with new evidence or a different well expressed perspective on these boards already. I would point out that it's not our job to convince or convict. That is the Holy Spirit's job. We are just supposed to be the messengers. Iron sharpens iron, right? It is to be expected that some of us are a little more dull than others. You should share your research and understanding. Even if many do not agree. When the prophets spoke and the city came against them, they shook off the dust as a testimony against them. But, I know what you mean and partly agree with you. That doesn’t prevent me from ever sharing - Just not that subject at this site and at this time. |
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 24, 2020 20:12:33 GMT -6
@wishingfor, @natalie, i agree with you that we can glean a lot from doing very specific word studies.
One of the best examples of this is the most recent article by Gary on the main page where his word study of Tribulation further reinforces the Biblical evidence for the Pre- Tribulation rapture. I highly recommend the article.
Regarding FOT, aka Rosh Hashanah or Yom Teruah, it is very important to see them in the larger setting. 7 total- 4 Spring feasts which were fulfilled and how these are inseparably linked with the First advent and how the last 3 are inseparably linked with the Second Advent.
Yardstick made a great point in that we should expect to see consistency in the patterns.
Keep in mind that in your study, there are multiple passages that don't mention feast of Trumpets/ Yom Teruah, but say New Moon or 1st day of the 7th month. This is the only feast that occurs on the New Moon, and set the date for forgiveness of sins (Yom Kippur on 10th of Tishrei)and all the Sabbaths for the year.
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Post by yardstick on Feb 24, 2020 21:00:15 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Feb 24, 2020 21:06:41 GMT -6
But does "new moon" always mean FOT? I would guess maybe not. I see where the rapture could happen on FOT, but I also see it being more connected with the physical return of Jesus. But I could be wrong. I know that things will definitely make more sense when the Feasts are indeed fulfilled. My current question is - Why is the feast of Unleavened Bread 7 days? |
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Post by rt on Feb 25, 2020 19:08:05 GMT -6
The interlinear Greek New Testament interprets the underlined in the previous passages as saying:
(1 Corinthians 15:52) “In (an) instant, in (the) twinkle of (the) eye, in the last trump He shall be trumpeting for and the dead ones shall be being roused incorruptible”.
And (1 Thessalonians 4:16) “That Himself the Lord, in shout of command voice, and in trumpet of God shall be descending from heaven and the dead ones in Christ shall be rising first”.
Recall how the voice of Jesus sounded like a trumpet to John in the revelation:, it is Jesus Himself that shouts with the voice of the chief messenger and sounds the trumpet call for His followers.
We know that this is Jesus because John describes Him:
Notice that last verse, I am the first and the last, perhaps this has more than one meaning (last trump?).
It is Jesus Himself that shouts with the voice of the chief messenger and sounds the trumpet call for His followers.
It isn't any angelic being who calls forth the dead, or those who remain alive, it is Jesus Himself! He is the Last Trumpet.
The feast of trumpets was initiated as a day of remembrance as Natalie so aptly posted about previously, It is a feast that Jesus has IMO already fulfilled:
Jesus is the trumpet who advocates for us. An advocate intercedes on behalf of those who cannot be present to defend themselves, in other words He remembers us before God. He stands as a reminder to God that He paid our debt for our sins.
Jesus told His followers that He came to fulfill the law, and it's my opinion that He fulfilled all the feasts at His first coming, beginning with the feast of Tabernacles, when many believe He was born. This is not to say that He can't fulfill the feasts again , so it is possible that He will fulfill the feast of trumpets again when the body of Christ is gathered.
Only time will tell....
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Post by rt on Feb 25, 2020 19:20:56 GMT -6
Just want to add, that Jesus did not fulfill all the feasts exactly on their feast days, for instance He fulfilled the day of Atonement :
Christ fulfilled the day of Atonement when He entered the heavenly tabernacle after His Resurrection, in the spring. So it could be that at the rapture and the second coming that He could fulfill the feasts on other days as well.
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 26, 2020 19:08:46 GMT -6
Hello, my brothers and sisters! You have raised some good points rt. I agree that the trumpet of God is God himself and not angels, and thus we can be certain the Last Trumpet was not connected with the 7 trumpets of Revelation which are all blown by angels. While i fully agree that Christ atoned for our sins, i don't know of a single Commentary or Well- known Bible scholar who believes the last 3 Fall feasts have already been fulfilled. There is virtually concensus across many denominations that the last three feasts have not yet been fulfilled, even by those who don't believe the feasts are directly tied to the Second Advent [ those who believe in any day/ surprise rapture] Perhaps you thought i meant that Christ fulfilled all the feasts?? I've said numerous times that he fulfilled the first four in perfect order and perfect precision and we can expect that he will do the same with the last 3. Because they are "set times" and God commanded his people to observe them on exact days- then He fulfills them on the day they are set. They are "appointed times." Christ couldn't fulfill Feast of Trumpets on Valentine's or Christmas or any other day except the two days of that Feast. Also yardstick mentioned that you didn't see any passage where Christ came to fulfill the feasts. Im sorry if you got that from any thing i posted. Christ's primary purpose was not to fulfill the feasts. He said re the law that he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. GOD did however give the feasts to his people to remember his deeds, and to point people to Him, and as a rehearsal for things to come. And to your Question, yardstick, i do agree that the consensus understanding is that the feasts are connected to the events, and feast of Booths, with the start of the millennium,rather its fulfillment is not the entire 1000 years. Although all nations will celebrate Feast of Booths during the millennium and i take that scripture to mean every year.
Another interesting thing to think about is that the Great Trumpet is Day of Atonement. And we have multiple verses that indicate a Trumpet at the Second coming- Day of the Lord. |
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Post by rt on Feb 27, 2020 9:12:02 GMT -6
Hello, my brothers and sisters! You have raised some good points rt . I agree that the trumpet of God is God himself and not angels, and thus we can be certain the Last Trumpet was not connected with the 7 trumpets of Revelation which are all blown by angels. While i fully agree that Christ atoned for our sins, i don't know of a single Commentary or Well- known Bible scholar who believes the last 3 Fall feasts have already been fulfilled. There is virtually concensus across many denominations that the last three feasts have not yet been fulfilled, even by those who don't believe the feasts are directly tied to the Second Advent [ those who believe in any day/ surprise rapture] Perhaps you thought i meant that Christ fulfilled all the feasts?? I've said numerous times that he fulfilled the first four in perfect order and perfect precision and we can expect that he will do the same with the last 3. Because they are "set times" and God commanded his people to observe them on exact days- then He fulfills them on the day they are set. They are "appointed times." Christ couldn't fulfill Feast of Trumpets on Valentine's or Christmas or any other day except the two days of that Feast. Also yardstick mentioned that you didn't see any passage where Christ came to fulfill the feasts. Im sorry if you got that from any thing i posted. Christ's primary purpose was not to fulfill the feasts. He said re the law that he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. GOD did however give the feasts to his people to remember his deeds, and to point people to Him, and as a rehearsal for things to come. And to your Question, yardstick , i do agree that the consensus understanding is that the feasts are connected to the events, and feast of Booths, with the start of the millennium,rather its fulfillment is not the entire 1000 years. Although all nations will celebrate Feast of Booths during the millennium and i take that scripture to mean every year.
Another interesting thing to think about is that the Great Trumpet is Day of Atonement. And we have multiple verses that indicate a Trumpet at the Second coming- Day of the Lord. Hello disciple4life , It wasn't anything you said that led me to post as I did. Would you say then that Jesus did not fulfill the feast of atonement? To me at least, that it clearly not the case, because according to scripture He most certainly did. But that is not to say that He won't fulfill it again on the exact day some time in the future. Just because commentaries and authors have all fallen in step to say the fall feasts haven't been fulfilled doesn't mean they are right, though I wouldn't disregard what they say, nor would I be dogmatic about my own view. Many claim that Jesus died when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered, but how can that be when He is shown eating the Passover meal with His disciples after they had slaughtered their lamb??? (Matthew 26: 17-25, Mark 14: 12-21, Luke 22:7-23) so He didn't fulfill it precisely as many commentaries and authors say, in fact some of them make the claim that He never actually ate the Passover in order to fit it in with their view of fulfillment. Yet Jesus did fulfill it didn't He? Actually the only "appointed times" He fulfilled on the exact day were His resurrection on the day of the Barley first fruits wave offering and the day of Pentecost which is the First Fruits and the conclusion of the Barley Omer count, the week long feast of Unleavened Bread could also be included. I have done my own study of the feasts, and I do think that the spring feasts were fulfilled initially as a sign to the nation of Israel, while the fall feasts which were not so obviously fulfilled on their actual days or in proximity to them were fulfilled for the Church. In the future it may be that the feasts will be fulfilled again on their actual days as a sign to the nation of Israel. The feasts and appointed times by the way are part of the law, they were ordinances that Israel was to observe perpetually throughout their generations. So when Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, that would include the feasts. |
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Maybe I will show you my notes one day- rather then bread crumbs yardstick. 
