paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
|
Post by paul on Jul 9, 2017 16:36:40 GMT -6
We have this discussion about free will with a good Christian friend of mine for ages. I say the Lord is in control of everything and he says we are not robots. I believe in Jesus and the fact that the truth is in Jesus and nowhere else. I also believe that God's truths are very simple, but it is our minds that are too complicated and many times its hard for us to see the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. I don't believe that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was put in the garden to give the Adam a free will. The problem was that there was a serpent who was wiser then Adam. Also Adam was earthly but the law is spiritual (Rom 7:14). The Lord put the tree there to make Adam righteous, because he was naked and the only way to get righteous is through an obedience. An obedience can be done only by the Lord Himself so He perfectly did it on the cross (Rom 5:19). I never read it. It is a personal revelation. Most of my doctrine is not based on the traditional teachings but rather on the personal revelations of the Scripture that I received from the Lord. In terms of a salvation the good example for me the is the 2 parables told by Jesus. The first one is the parable of the Sower. We can see that a man's heart is compared to a soil. Does a soil have a free choice?.. The soil could be cultivated, but again the cultivation is done by the Lord (Luke 13:8). Another parable is the parable of tares and wheat. It might sound kind of unorthodox, but I believe that some people posses the seed of Christ/Adam when they born into this world, but some people have the seed of the enemy. It is not a matter of predestination but a matter from what seed the person is born. Judah talks about empty clouds without spirit. The beasts from Revelation probably spiritless beings like real animals, but look human. The Noah's story is a good example of it. The Bible said: "Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations." The term "perfect in his generations" simply means he had Adam's seed compare to some giant freaks that where produced by fallen angels. (I won't go into much more details on this. This topic its just to share different views on the free will...) In terms of "foreknowledge" it could be God knows who possesses the seed of Christ. Why is then the gospel? It is a simple call of a wandering sheep to a sheepfold. The Lord knows His sheep and calls them by name. Jesus takes a wandering sheep, puts it on His shoulders and rejoices. Also the example about "Adam knew Eve" is a good one. Jesus telling unbelieving Jews "I never knew you" simply means that they don't posses the Holy Spirit. That's how Jesus comes to know us when we receive the Holy Spirit and become one spirit with the Lord even as the Adam and Eve became one flesh...
|
|
|
Post by whatif on Jul 9, 2017 17:00:47 GMT -6
Sounds like a great description of the idea that the Church was conceived at Pentecost and will be born at the Rapture, henrym! Have you had opportunity to check out the threads and videos about that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 23:09:23 GMT -6
Sounds like a great description of the idea that the Church was conceived at Pentecost and will be born at the Rapture, henrym! Have you had opportunity to check out the threads and videos about that? Yes, I agree, rapture is a form of birth. Paul writes about rapture as getting "spiritual body", becoming "of heaven" and being "changed". A transformation from one state of existence to another. I have read some threads about it here and on unsealed blog, and did watch some videos.
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 9, 2017 23:33:31 GMT -6
Yes, I agree, rapture is a form of birth. Paul writes about rapture as getting "spiritual body", becoming "of heaven" and being "changed". It's a transformation from one state of existence to another. A birth. I have read some threads about it here and on unsealed blog, and did watch some videos. That's what I was thinking. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." As a dad to 7 kids, I always felt that was talking about the church nursery. ha ha.
|
|
|
Post by whatif on Jul 9, 2017 23:57:10 GMT -6
That just made me laugh, watchmanjim!
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jul 11, 2017 7:07:14 GMT -6
I wanted to share my understanding of free will and also if God chooses those who would be saved or if everyone actually has a chance at salvation.
Firstly I believe fully that God gave us free will over every area of life. God actually reveals His intentions in Genesis 2.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jul 11, 2017 7:33:41 GMT -6
now in verse 8 we learn that God created a garden and then put Adam in it. We learn then in verse 9 that the tree of life was specifically put in that garden, but in the middle. Then in verse 15 God commands Adam to work in the garden but not to eat from the tree of life.
okay so evaluating this we can see some glimpses of the plan of God. The first thing is He specifically created the garden and put the tree of life in the middle so that it would stand out and specifically commanded Adam not to eat from it.
If we think about this we would ask why would He put it in the middle so that it was always apparent infront of Adam's face and on Adam's mind?
If He didn't want Adam to eat from it why put it in such a spot that would make Adam think about it daily or have to confront it daily?
The answer is quite simple, God intentionally planted the tree of life there so that Adam would be tempted by it. The creation of free will happened when God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree, because He gave Adam the power to choose. God's intention for creation was to live forever in the first heaven which was Eden. However He wanted more then simple obedience, God wanted a relationship with the creation. So the only way that can happen is if they have control and they have the power to choose God or to reject God. Think of it this way, you don't want someone to be your friend because they are forced to, you want someone to be your friend because they want to be your friend.
Going along with this thought we see that God intentionally started testing Adam the second that He put Adam in the garden. It makes sense to God's character, as we see that all of us are tested and all of us who are saved are only saved because we willingly chose the free gift of salvation.
Now going back to the question about whether or not God chooses who will be saved before He creates them. I agree and don't agree with this statement. I will explain.
The reason I agree with this statement is because God does choose all of us to have salvation. The fact that He died on the cross for the sins of the whole world testifies to this. It was not just for my sins or current christains or future christains sins but for everyone's.
2 Chorinthians 2:14-15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
John 3:16, 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Now God with his eternal power and wisdom can see the future and know who will ultimately choose Him, but I believe He gives everyone a choice.
Mathew 7:13-14 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
That path is laid out for everyone in the world, yet He allows us to choose which path to take.
A good way to look at this is that God sees the consequences and events that will happen for each decision that we make, but every single decision changes our possible future. So He can see each future all the time, but our choices each day can change that future, since we live with free will we are able to change our own future based on our decisions.
If you know who Ted Dekker is read "Blink" its what helped me come to this conclusion.
I don't know if I'm right or not but this is my understanding, sorry its so long.
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Jul 11, 2017 11:47:27 GMT -6
Careful with your placement ......... There where two trees in the middle .... "the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
Only one was forbidden for Adam (and Eve - though not told that specifically)
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jul 11, 2017 12:29:54 GMT -6
isn't it interesting that those trees are right next to eachohter smack dab in the middle. Basically forcing a choice everyday
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 26, 2017 19:41:06 GMT -6
An issue in our age is that most Christians don't believe what Bible teaches about predestination.... Are you referring to the Calvinist concept or the Biblical one? Please explain.
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 27, 2017 19:49:49 GMT -6
Henry, I don't know why you decided to answer my question on predestination in a PM, but I'll let everyone know that you agree with the Calvinist idea of Predestination.
This guy explains (rather bluntly) the problems with Calvinist Predestination in detail:
Bottom line is that it is NOT Biblical, we are NOT predestined for salvation! This teaching does not originate with the Bible, it originates with Gnosticism, and one of the big evidences I have found is that Irenaeus address the idea of free will back in the 2nd century in his work Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37), which is a treatise against the teachings of Gnosticism.
God does not pick and choose who will be saved and who will not. He wishes that none should perish but everyone come to metanoia (2 Peter 3:9). Calvinism basically teaches that "Satan wants everyone, but God does not".
The Biblical concept of predestination is that we are predestined for glorification, i.e., the redemption of our body - through faith in Christ. as the video above explains.
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 27, 2017 20:20:46 GMT -6
@henrym, very interesting connection! On Sunday (the 24th) in my church bible study, we were talking about Antioch being the first place where "Christian" was coined. So this really stuck out to me in reading your post. Not to cause debate or anything, but rather to encourage constructive and peaceful dialogue (especially for you, since it sounds like you're weary of debating), when you share your views maybe you could use terms like "God's will" or "God's plan" instead of "predestination" because "predestination" can be a stumbling block for many (hence the need to debate it constantly) because a particular belief system has taken the word and defined it based on their beliefs (much like the phrases "born-again" or "filled with the Holy Ghost). Depending on what belief system you subscribe to, those phrases may mean different things and that can cause confusion and debate. Whether people agree with "predestination" or not, I think we can ALL agree that God is outside of time, that God knows the end from the beginning, and that God has a perfect plan and will that will be completed. So, why don't we avoid the debate altogether by avoiding the use of potentially provocative words or phrases? We would love for you to feel like you can share your views without being attacked or debated (if you do not wish to be). Please, don't stop sharing, but do consider what I have said. So we can all fellowship in harmony and let "iron sharpen iron." The Gospel takes priority over eschatology. The bottom line is that he saw it necessary to mention that a big problem in the church is it's rejection of Calvinist predestination-unto-salvation, which overtly changes the gospel, and thus requires addressing. This is a bigger issue, since Jesus in Luke 18:9-14 told us that a man who thought he was chosen to not be like other men wasn't saved. I'm merely giving him a bit of correction on the issue. This hasn't turned into a debate.
|
|
|
Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 27, 2017 21:11:14 GMT -6
@henrym, very interesting connection! On Sunday (the 24th) in my church bible study, we were talking about Antioch being the first place where "Christian" was coined. So this really stuck out to me in reading your post. Not to cause debate or anything, but rather to encourage constructive and peaceful dialogue (especially for you, since it sounds like you're weary of debating), when you share your views maybe you could use terms like "God's will" or "God's plan" instead of "predestination" because "predestination" can be a stumbling block for many (hence the need to debate it constantly) because a particular belief system has taken the word and defined it based on their beliefs (much like the phrases "born-again" or "filled with the Holy Ghost). Depending on what belief system you subscribe to, those phrases may mean different things and that can cause confusion and debate. Whether people agree with "predestination" or not, I think we can ALL agree that God is outside of time, that God knows the end from the beginning, and that God has a perfect plan and will that will be completed. So, why don't we avoid the debate altogether by avoiding the use of potentially provocative words or phrases? We would love for you to feel like you can share your views without being attacked or debated (if you do not wish to be). Please, don't stop sharing, but do consider what I have said. So we can all fellowship in harmony and let "iron sharpen iron." The Gospel takes priority over eschatology. The bottom line is that he saw it necessary to mention that a big problem in the church is it's rejection of Calvinist predestination-unto-salvation, which overtly changes the gospel, and thus requires addressing. This is a bigger issue, since Jesus in Luke 18:9-14 told us that a man who thought he was chosen to not be like other men wasn't saved. I'm merely giving him a bit of correction on the issue. This hasn't turned into a debate. I was writing this while you posted, so I didn't see your response until afterward. My post was not indirectly aimed at you. My post was in reply to his two posts.
|
|
|
Post by disciple4life on Sept 28, 2017 2:09:53 GMT -6
Thanks for welcoming me back. Up to some time ago I was part of a Christian forum which is mostly about debating and arguing, and when I registered here I was expecting I'll avoid debating, which I have done my share and don't feel the need for at this time. But it seems you can't avoid debating if you see predestination all over the Bible, for starters. So I unregistered. I came back to share this connection about Antioch, but I probably won't write a lot. Hopefully we won't be here for long. Anyway, it's great that this connection made the impression on others too. I agree with yardstick that the shooting was satan's doing. But that was just a delivery mechanism. Everything, ultimately, is done for God's plan and puprose to be fulfilled, in accordance to His will. Jesus' crucifixion was executed by satan-lead people on earth for utmost evil, yet it was all under God's will on Heaven for supreme good (Mark 14:36, Acts 4:26-28, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). If the murder in a church in Antioch, which was a worldwide news, was any day other than on 23rd or 24th of September, it would be a different story and we would have an array of possible interpretations, most of which would not seem to be too significant. But it happened exactly while the end days Revelation 12 sign was in the sky. The sign which was 2000 years in the making. This connection was deliberate, as I see it, and I don't believe that it could in any way happen outside of God's will, direction and purpose. Henrym, Welcome back to the Forum. I agree, my brother - we can hold our own views deeply and sincerely on issues - Free will, Conditional Eternal Security, End Times, Calvinism, gifts of the Spirit, etc. and don't have to argue or debate. We can even disagree with others in a civil manner, and give reasons to support why we hold a view, and that's not arguing. The problem is when people hold a view so tightly that it becomes a fist, and then they use it as a weapon to beat others. We can see that with Eschatology, and people dogmatically insisting that Planet X exists, or that the key to End times is hidden / revealed in the pyramids, or that the Feasts are only for the Jews, etc, etc.
It's not so much what we say, but rather how we say it. When other people challenge our viewpoint or give another side, it should cause us to dig into scripture and try to remember that we all see through a glass dimly. No one has all the pieces on End Times theology. Other things can confirm, or events such as hurricanes and eclipses and Blood moons can 'converge' - line up to tell us the season is very near, but what we know - Paul said that for those watching, alert - The Return of Christ - Rapture and Second coming, will not be a surprise like a thief.
|
|
|
Post by henrym on Sept 28, 2017 5:33:27 GMT -6
Henry, I don't know why you decided to answer my question on predestination in a PM, but I'll let everyone know that you agree with the Calvinist idea of Predestination. How nice. You think you are exposing something said in secret? First, your question "Are you referring to the Calvinist concept or the Biblical one?" is arrogant, in my view. At the least it's loaded. So it wasn't asked in good spirit. You could apologize for it, instead of pushing your arrogance further. I don't believe in arminian free-will, yet I have never and would never ask anyone who does believe in it something like: "Are you referring to the armenian concept of will or the Biblical one?" That's the type of a question like: "What have you had for dinner? Pizza or real food?" A smug question. I don't claim to have 100% knowledge on biblical doctrines, but only full conviction on certain doctrines, so I don't go around like I have been on the third Heaven where truth has been revealed to me without glass darkly. Secondly, the second thread I started on this board, after I have registered here the first time, was about my view on predestination and how it largely fits what's known as calvinistic view. It's the thread: unsealed.boards.net/thread/365/end-time-prophecy-freeSo what you were pretending to somehow bring to the open, I opened in detail as soon as I registered on this board. But even taking that aside, when one talks about predestination it by and large means predestination in line with what's known as calvinistic view. If I already didn't made any clarification regarding the term in this thread, people can generally safely assume what I meant by it, without ever reading my previous posts. Type "Bible predestination" in the Google and top articles are either presenting calvinistic view or rebuking calvinistic view. What I'm saying is that the term is generally associated with calvinism. And I didn't rebuke it in my post. So... I guess you understand that. And that's in addition to my post being aligned with that view of predestination. So it's possible that you in fact knew what I was talking about, but you had an agenda, an axe to grind, so you fired your loaded question. Thirdly, I've sent you a message privately because this thread is not about discussion on predestination, and there is no need to bloat it with such discussion and move the thread off the topic. I could have just dismissed your question, but I didn't want to brush you off, so I answered you, privately. You could have extended me the courtesy by continuing dialog privately, and get clarification from me first. But you choose to turn back on me immediately and run to tell everybody what I said to you in private. What a "slick" move. Not exposing yourself as being a person one can safely turn to in private, though. And that would be a mild thing to say. Finally, predestination is all over the Bible, starting from Genesis. I can write a book on the predestination, filled to the brim with references and connections from the Bible. It's very deep Biblical subject. You couldn't write a tenth of a similar book on free-will. Nobody can. Evidence for predestination is massive. But many don't see it, by God's choice. That's how it is. But it will all be revealed when time comes. To close with what I've written privately to you: I could accept to be wrong on predestination, though, when we get on the other side and stop seeing through glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12), but I would be really really surprised if it turns out I'm wrong.
|
|