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Post by stephen on Sept 29, 2017 12:56:31 GMT -6
I don't get how a whole doctrine of a pre trib rapture can be got from these two verses - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 = 1 Cor 15:51-52
Taking into account Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Immediately after the tribulation Christ comes with the sound of a trumpet.
Where does it say immediately before the tribulation Christ comes?
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Post by mike on Sept 30, 2017 11:23:46 GMT -6
I don't get how a whole doctrine of a pre trib rapture can be got from these two verses - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 = 1 Cor 15:51-52 Taking into account Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Immediately after the tribulation Christ comes with the sound of a trumpet. Where does it say immediately before the tribulation Christ comes? 1Thes 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come 1Thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ Room 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him There are others as well, but I believe some hold these as pertaining to a 'mid'-trib rapture before God's wrath is poured, which is also possible |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 13, 2018 22:00:20 GMT -6
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 14, 2018 12:23:32 GMT -6
I don't get how a whole doctrine of a pre trib rapture can be got from these two verses - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 = 1 Cor 15:51-52 Taking into account Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Immediately after the tribulation Christ comes with the sound of a trumpet. Where does it say immediately before the tribulation Christ comes? Hello Stephen, Welcome to the forum, buddy, ;-) It's so nice to have you here and your thoughts /insights are all part of how we learn from each other.
If you read the entire section - this passage is not talking about the rapture/ "harpazo" but rather the second coming. This part here - I'm not assuming you don't know, but rather many others who lurk or read the posts are not aware - There is a lot of confusion because many people from different regions and denominations refer to the entire series of end-times events as the Return of Christ, but this is actually the cause of much of the confusion. - The harpazo / rapture is when Christ comes FOR his church, and we meet him in the clouds - This is a wedding celebration, - and there is shouting/ Trumpet of God.
- This event [Harpazo] is repeatedly referred to in scripture as the "Day of Christ" and stands in sharp contrast to the "Day of the Lord". ** I've attached the excellent word study PDF below - it's not my work. I can't take credit. ;-)
- This is the verse listed above in 1 Thes 4:16 - the most explicitly clear rapture passage in the Bible. The Greek word that is translated "caught up" is Harpazo, and is from the Latin Rapturo - means "snatched up, or caught up quickly by force".
- This passage you list above is referring to the Second Coming which is totally different goal and totally different description of events surrounding it.
- In the second coming/ or also commonly referred to as the Return of Christ - Christ actually comes WITH his church, and he descends and sets his feet on the Mt of Olives and the mountain is split. The context and goal here is judgment and the wrath of God poured out. The stuff Hollywood's worst horror films can't even come close to describe.
- Another key point that I think is very very significant in the mix is that Jacob in the Old Testament was the twin of Esau and he wrestled with the angel and was re-named Israel. ;-) hmmm. The Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's Trouble -- Huge key. It's to bring the Jews to recognize the true Messiah, and the first half of the Tribulation, they are still blinded and will be deceived by the anti-Christ. This is when we have the two witnesses, who do miracles.
- There is also incredible parallels between the Harpazo/rapture and Hebrew weddings. If you study the famous passage of the ten bridesmaids [some translations say virgins] but it's explicitly clear that this is a wedding, and we find clues that connect this to the rapture. In the Hebrew wedding, the bridegroom comes with a "shout" and the groom's father knows the exact timing. The Groom comes for the bride, and he hides her away in the Chupah - wedding chamber for 7 days -- hmmmmm. and then, after they consummate the marriage, they come out and then there is the marriage supper. Jews for centuries have believed [and still do] that the resurrection will someday be on Yom Teruah, Feast of Trumpets. For this reason, many end-times scholars see this as a huge/high watch time. ***In Jewish eschatology - The door of Heaven is Opened at Yom Teruah [Also called Rosh Hoshanah and closed at Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement.]
- Also, Stephen, another huge clue from scripture is that the 1st 3 chapters of Revelations are Epistles to real churches in Asia Minor, then the Door of Heaven is open - the angel says "Come up Here" and the church is gone - no other mention of the church until Rev chapter 19. ;-)
- I'm not dogmatic, just trying to see and understand scripture and gleaning the wisdom of many other watchmen here and end-times teachers. Just trying to help explain, but we have to keep the picture that we all see through a glass 'dimly' and try to connect the dots as best we can.
I believe we are seeing labor pains, and soon, we'll have all the dots and all the pieces and will celebrate together. Marantha.
Disciple4life.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 23, 2018 20:34:07 GMT -6
I was just listening to JD Farag's prophecy update, and he pointed out that Joseph, who is a very clear type of Christ, took a Gentile bride BEFORE the 7 year famine. I am always encouraged when I see more validation for a pre-trib rapture.
This proposal pleased Pharaoh and all his servants. And Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this, in whom is the Spirit of God?” Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Since God has shown you all this, there is none so discerning and wise as you are. You shall be over my house, and all my people shall order themselves as you command. Only as regards the throne will I be greater than you.” And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.” Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand, and clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain about his neck. And he made him ride in his second chariot. And they called out before him, “Bow the knee!” Thus he set him over all the land of Egypt. Moreover, Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no one shall lift up hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.” And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name Zaphenath-paneah. And he gave him in marriage Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On. So Joseph went out over the land of Egypt. Genesis 41:37-45
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 25, 2018 2:24:58 GMT -6
I was just listening to JD Farag's prophecy update, and he pointed out that Joseph, who is a very clear type of Christ, took a Gentile bride BEFORE the 7 year famine. I am always encouraged when I see more validation for a pre-trib rapture. This proposal pleased Pharaoh and all his servants. And Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this, in whom is the Spirit of God?” Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Since God has shown you all this, there is none so discerning and wise as you are. You shall be over my house, and all my people shall order themselves as you command. Only as regards the throne will I be greater than you.” And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.” Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand, and clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain about his neck. And he made him ride in his second chariot. And they called out before him, “Bow the knee!” Thus he set him over all the land of Egypt. Moreover, Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no one shall lift up hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.” And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name Zaphenath-paneah. And he gave him in marriage Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On. So Joseph went out over the land of Egypt. Genesis 41:37-45 Hello stephen , and witness1 , others. That'a a very good point you shared from J D Farag, ** In the post above, i forgot to attach the very good [short] word study that explains the Day of the Lord vs the Day of Christ. It's not my work. ;-)
Another thing, Stephen, since we are talking about verses that support/ give evidence for a Pre-tribulation rapture, ;-) In Revelation, the first 3 chapters are actually epistles - in terms of the style of genre- like the other Letters of Paul to churches, - these are real letters to real churches which existed in Asia Minor - [Turkey] It actually says that Satan's seat/ throne is here / Turkey. hmmmm. It's just a theory, but there is also the belief that the AC or the False prophet will arise from Turkey.
Turkey is one of the nations of Gog of Magog, - Gomer, Beth Togarmah, and Tubal, were all cities in what is Turkey, and many Biblical commentaries and maps show these. We just had a prophecy fulfilled in Dec, with the alliance of Turkey, Iran [Persia] and Russia, and last week, Turkey attacked Syria. I digress . . .
My point, stephen , is that in the first 3 chapters we have the angel of God, and a loud shout [and an open door in heaven,] and the angel says "Come up here". This is the rapture/ harpazo - Day of Christ - it's a celebration, and matches the wedding in the gospel account of the ten bridegrooms. ;-)
Then, the church is gone - never mentioned again on earth, during all the horrific wars, suffering, earthquakes, seals and bowls and until the end of Revelation - chapter 19 or 20 - when we have the "Second Coming" which is the Day of the Lord, [wrath and judgement] and when Christ returns with his Bride and sets his feet on the Mt of Olives.
Day of the Lord vs Day of Christ.pdf (120.94 KB)
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 6, 2020 21:25:08 GMT -6
yardstick, duydao, wbgillis, watchmanjim, disciple4life, Gary, whatif, witness1, mike, kjs, @reepicheep, boymaker, nana, boraddict, venge, fitz, Beloved, kodster, stormyknight @sam others. Just a quick note -- I'm fully aware of the fact that there are lots of different views re rapture timing, and many other nuances and subcategories - and that we share and learn from each other. That's what makes this forum so amazing. Wanted to pass along the information so you can listen and make your own conclusions, but this Sunday, Pastor and End Times teacher J D Farag of Calvary Chapel in Kanaeohe will give a sermon where he condenses an entire 8 week series on the rapture, and he's going to summarize the entire series in one talk. The topic is the Biblical proof for the Pre-tribulational rapture. I believe this already, and for me, it's not a big deal, but i'm very curious and open to learn about Pre-wrath. I don't claim to have all the answers and have learned so so much from you - my dear fellow sheepdogs/ watchmen on the wall. Just thought that this would be good information to have and share with others. If people don't come to his conclusion that's fine - I like his teaching and think he has a lot of insight, but don't agree with everything he says or anyone for that matter. It should be very interesting. Google J D Farag, Latest Prophecy Update, and it will pull up a link for Calvary chapel - the updates are all titled and also have the date on each video, so it makes it very easy to find. ;-) Grace and peace, Disciple4life
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 21:46:06 GMT -6
I have enjoyed JD for a while now. He's joyful and I appreciate it.
The man of lawlessness can't be revealed while we're here. He's the one that confirms the 7 year treaty. I can't get around that. Pre-trib.
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david
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Post by david on Aug 7, 2020 18:50:44 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Aug 8, 2020 7:44:24 GMT -6
I have enjoyed JD for a while now. He's joyful and I appreciate it. The man of lawlessness can't be revealed while we're here. He's the one that confirms the 7 year treaty. I can't get around that. Pre-trib. That depends on how you interpret 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2. Since Paul and his companions are dead, they could not be part of the living raptured. Hence, they must be part of the dead resurrected before "we who are alive and remain" which follows it. Yet Paul and his companions tell us that their "rest" wont happen till Christ comes and destroys those who destroy the earth and when he comes to destroy them - he shall be admired by all them that believe in the day that happens. If that day happens when he is revealed in flaming fire with his angels, the day we are to admire him in "ALL THAT BELIEVE"... it follows Matthew 24. Notice the day he comes, in 2 Thess and Matthew 24 are the same event. He comes with angels to destroy the wicked, he comes to be admired by his people on earth, and that day is the day of Paul and his companions "rest" whereas its the same day the angels at the sound of a trumpet gather together his people from the north, south, east and west. Biblehub titles the 2 Thess 1 passage as "Christ's coming". Directly after Paul tells the Thessalonians they will rest with God when these things happen, he goes on to continue with the same day event. The same event spoken of in 2 Thess 1 and Matthew 24... What day will not come till the man of sin is revealed? The day of Christ coming in verse 1 +2 and 1 Thess 7-10. The day where we who are in Christ get to "rest" with him. How do you gather together to Christ in order to rest with him when he comes (verse 1) if that day comes before the man of sin is revealed? That disagrees with verse 3. Obviously, the opinions of some here have been demonstrated already. I only offer another. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 8, 2020 16:11:13 GMT -6
For me, a recent series of questions have been raised...no pun intended...
The rapture includes the Dead in Christ rising first, correct? Then what happens to those who die during the 7 year trib? Is there a second resurrection of the dead? and, those who are alive when Jesus sets His foot on earth pre-millenial, is there a second change in a twinkling?
There is a First Resurrection and a Second Death in Revelation, but I do not see the term Second Resurrection. Also, if there is a 2nd resurrection, then it does not happen until after the 1000 year reign, according to Rev 20
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
Maybe after the 7 year thing there is this 1000 year wait for the martyrs..but that isn't what it says in Rev 20.
and where is the dead rising/changing of the remaining prior to His Coming in this passage?:
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: 1)Christ the first fruits, after that 2)those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
It says in rev 20 that those beheaded and not worshipped the mark reign with Christ 1000 years. If they wait to be resurrected or made alive at the end of the 1000 they cant be reigning with Him.
Jesus reigns for 1000 years, THEN He hands over the kingdom to His Father, right? reread rev 20:4. the beheaded come to life BEFORE the 1000 year reign. Are there mystery verses that we don't have in the epistles describiing a second resurrection and rapture? sure seems like 2Thes and 1Cor15 are talking about a one time event. The Resurrection of the Dead, then those alive and remaining are CHANGED...AT the last trump, at the onset of HIs reign ON EARTH, not up in heaven..
2Thes seems to explain it this exact way out of Daniel 12 also..
And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
If this is the white throne judgement, then this is AFTER the 1000 year reign. but it doesnt say that in Daniel, it says this
7I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 8, 2020 17:34:19 GMT -6
For me, a recent series of questions have been raised...no pun intended... The rapture includes the Dead in Christ rising first, correct? Then what happens to those who die during the 7 year trib? Is there a second resurrection of the dead? and, those who are alive when Jesus sets His foot on earth pre-millenial, is there a second change in a twinkling? There is a First Resurrection and a Second Death in Revelation, but I do not see the term Second Resurrection. Also, if there is a 2nd resurrection, then it does not happen until after the 1000 year reign, according to Rev 20 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.Maybe after the 7 year thing there is this 1000 year wait for the martyrs..but that isn't what it says in Rev 20. Hello, barbiosheepgirl , I think you raise a very interesting point. The text answers a lot - and tells us several things explicitly- but leaves a few questions unanswered. ;-) The plain reading of the text tell us that specifically that 1. there is a specific group of people in the tribulation linked by three things - a.) they had not received the mark of the beast, and b.) they they had not worshipped the beast or his image, and c.) for this- they were martyred. "because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God." Martyrs for Christ 2. - this group specifically - those martyred for Christ and did not take the mark came to life at the end of the Great tribulation, but before the Millennium - The text says unmistakably clear - that they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. The entire Millennium 3. It specifically mentions the rest of the dead - which dead?? The rest of the dead during the tribulation - [those not martyred] 4. It specifically tells us that that these "Other Tribulation dead" came to life after the 1000 year millennium was completed. So there is a 2nd resurrection of believers. 5. We know already that all the dead in Christ will be changed /resurrected instantly at the rapture, and in a blink of an eye, the dead rise first and we [all living believers] are harpatzoed - caught up with them in the air, with Christ- When Christ comes for his Bride and we meet him in the sky. These other dead, can only be those who die by other means during the tribulation - old age, natural causes, car accidents, natural disasters, some crazy supernatural stuff, including monstrous hail, and asteroids crashing into the earth, and massive earthquakes of Biblical proportions. A lot of stuff people can die from.  They will join us in the new heaven and new earth, after the 1000 year reign. Just a little late to the party. Disciple4life |
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Post by Gary on Aug 8, 2020 20:15:03 GMT -6
I was extremely surprised to discover recently that two very prominent pastors who I had always assumed were not pre-trib actually are, or, at least they are now even if they didn't used to be. The first is Max Lucado who was influential to me in my early walk. Max is probably the top Stone-Campbell preacher in the world. What's funny about this is that the Stone-Campbell movement (Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Independent Christian Church) is largely amillennial or postmillennial, but he apparently has moved away from amillennialism and the non-literalism of preterism. The second is John MacArthur, the reformed pastor in California who is currently resisting the state government there in regard to their lockdown guidelines. This one surprises me just as much because he is probably the most influential reformed preacher in the western hemisphere, but he was actually persuaded by the dispensationalist Dr. John Walvoord from DTS. www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1324/will-the-church-go-through-the-tribulation-part-1 |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2020 23:32:57 GMT -6
I was extremely surprised to discover recently that two very prominent pastors who I had always assumed were not pre-trib actually are, or, at least they are now even if they didn't used to be. The first is Max Lucado who was influential to me in my early walk. Max is probably the top Stone-Campbell preacher in the world. What's funny about this is that the Stone-Campbell movement (Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Independent Christian Church) is largely amillennial or postmillennial, but he apparently has moved away from amillennialism and the non-literalism of preterism. The second is John MacArthur, the reformed pastor in California who is currently resisting the state government there in regard to their lockdown guidelines. This one surprises me just as much because he is probably the most influential reformed preacher in the western hemisphere, but he was actually persuaded by the dispensationalist Dr. John Walvoord from DTS. www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1324/will-the-church-go-through-the-tribulation-part-1Gary, I'm reformed and I follow MacArthur as a teacher. He has consistently been pre-trib throughout his 51 years. He has written about it extensively and has multiple series about it on YouTube and the Grace To You app. His teaching preceded my coming here. I first went to Rapture Ready but they treated me like garbage for my beliefs. So I kept looking. Here is one sermon. It's specific to Rapture. The best is "The Next Event on God's Prophetic Timetable." also on YT. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2020 0:09:37 GMT -6
Here's another from Dr. John Barnett of Discover The Book Ministries. He's reformed and pre-trib.
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