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Post by boraddict on Jun 10, 2021 19:33:41 GMT -6
venge, I think it is as simple as you have put it; that once a person believes in Lord Jesus as their personal Savior then they are in the family of God. So the actual blood line does not matter as much as the Jews think it does. However, they are free to have their belief, and Satan is free to attack them as he has done so many times in the past. It seems to be the case that the target of the tribulation is once again Satan attacking the Jewish people. They were attacked for the duration of WWII ,September 1, 1939 - May 8, 1945, from the Polish invasion by German forces to the allied VE Day. That duration of time was over 5 years, and if the persecution prior to the beginning of the war is included then the duration of time is over 7 years. Those people have suffered time and again through persecution and that is a true testament to be reckoned with. Although the Jewish blood line may have mixed with other peoples they have never let go of their place in the family of man. They know from whence they came; from before Moses down to today. As family lines go, they deserve our admiration. We do not know from whence we came. At least I do not. My line goes back to Germany in 1734, and on another ancestral line back to the Quakers. So basically my ancestral line goes back to Europe. But let's say for the period of 2,000 years ago who were my ancestors; I do not know. Yet those people in Israel today know they are from the land of Israel all the way back to when that land was promised to Abraham. Hats off to that family for maintaining their identity. But like you said venge, greater than the blood line is the spiritual aspect of it all, that we are in Israel by virtue of believing in Lord Jesus. That is to a great degree what I am referring to when I say that we are of the tribe of adoption; Ephraim. Not that we are of the blood line, but we are adopted into the family at that reference point into Israel by believing in Lord Jesus. That is, Ephraim can not trace their line back to Moses but Judah can. And since we are not of Judah then we come into the family through Ephraim. Again, we will never be of Judah because they do not adopt, but we can be of Ephraim because that tribe is the tribe of all believers in Christ. As a result both tribes that constitute the entirety of the followers of Christ are accounted for in Israel. The believers that are in Israel via adoption and the Jews that will be in the family when they accept Jesus as their Savior. Not only that, but the tribes are represented at Rev. 7:4-8 with the exception of Dan and Ephraim. I am still working on that huge question as to what it means.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 10, 2021 20:46:11 GMT -6
venge , Paul also wrote Romans 11. Paul did NOT say "all" of the branches were broken off, he said "some" (Romans 11:17) of the branches were broken off. Paul also said that those "some" that remained on the root was because of Grace, even while still in unbelief (Romans 11:5 and Romans 11:7). That ...Grace... granted to the unbelieving elect physical Jews ("some")... is the very reason that believing gentiles were granted grace and spliced into the root (Romans 11:11). If God had not granted grace to the few elect unbelieving Jews that He has set apart (Romans 11:4) by His grace (Romans 11:5), then Gentiles would likely have never been given the opportunity of Grace. Physical Israel still matters in this end game. It's not just Spiritual.
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Post by disciple4life on Jun 10, 2021 22:10:15 GMT -6
I love this thread and i want to do a much deeper study on the history and the division- of course [I'll need to borrow Bora's notebook] heheh. I totally agree that Christians are grafted in- adopted. Also totally agree that the Jewish laws don't save anyone- the law is what reveals our sin and need for grace. Some really great points by everyone, but i want to note that based on what wiki says and uscgvet re Commonwealth theology, it is practically 180 degrees opposite from Replacement Theology. The part of him saying the Church didn't replace Israel- "we are Israel", is verbal gymnastics and disingenuous. A few interesting points to chew on- all who say the church IS Israel also say that we don't have to keep the feasts (or be circumcised) and yet God gave this as an EVERLASTING covenant for the Jews- Passover and circumcision. In fact, it says that guests or slaves in one's house can not observe Passover unless he is circumcised. Christ, or Paul, or any other writer never banned or discontinued circumcision- ** But Paul made it clear in Galatians that it doesn't save us. Most people, when they talk about being free from the law think or even say that Christ abolished the law. Most of the 10 commandments are repeated in the New Testament. Hmmmm. The other huge problem is that if the church IS Israel, then what and whom is the Tribulation for? The church- his bride is already purchased and pure- why does he marry her then beat her/purify her for 7 years?? No one can answer if the Church is Israel, then why is there a "time of the Gentiles", or the current Church age, nor can anyone answer how all Israel will be saved, if the church IS Israel. Nor can anyone answer or explain how God's everlasting Geographical promises concerning the real land with real River boundaries can apply or even be relevant to every Christian in Asia or Africa. We are grafted into Israel, but it's totally flawed Theology to deny that Israel is not separate and distinct or have a unique role in end times. To say we are one and the same is "name it and claim it" taking promises and specific conditions that were for the nation of Israel and falsely applying them to us.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 11, 2021 0:59:26 GMT -6
disciple4life, please consider that the tribulation is about Jesus taking the planet from Satan, and just exactly how that is done is anyone's guess. However, scripture gives us examples to use as types of what may be coming. Things like the famine of Egypt and so forth. As with anything there are various categories to which everything fits into. So let's say that covid is a category and circumcision is another category and the feasts are another category and so forth. Then the question becomes; "What categories are more critical to Jesus taking the planet from Satan." And, each of us places some degree of value to most categories; but what value does Jesus place on them? For me, the most critical is the degree of commitment to the Savior. Just how far are we willing to go, to love and do his work? The mere fact that we are discussing these kinds of things demonstrates our willingness to respond to his call. And that in my opinion the key; that we are willing and want to do the work he calls us to do. And, there are thousands of groups like ours wanting the same thing. So it is that we are among thousands if not millions awaiting and hoping for the day that Jesus takes the planet; that peace will prevail. So each of us places different values to different doctrinal things. And on a scale of 1 to 5 with 5 being the greatest value, I place covid at a "1" and the feasts, although I do not participate, at a "5". I place the church age at a "1" as well as the time of the gentiles, but the Christians as Israel (Ephraim) at a "5". That is so funny to me; because, it totally makes no sense. But that is what I do and am assuming that we all do it. The Davidic king stuff is a 5 for me because I think it plays into how the Savior is going to take the planet from Satan. I think the Book of Revelation is the key to it all with a plan of some sorts existing therein that is not revealed to us just yet. However, to me, there is a time in the near future that we will understand so much more than we do now. I was thinking today about how the world is becoming paranoid about so many things, and how blessed we are to know what we know. That Jesus is the Christ and we have knowledge and a firm testimony of his authority. And by the way, the 10 commandments are unmovable bedrock doctrine IMO.
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Post by mike on Jun 11, 2021 6:20:29 GMT -6
disciple4life Why is that my friend? Aren't we grafted in? Have you ever seen a tree graft? You can still observe the original tree but also can clearly see the graft, but the stump fully supports the branch(es)... Are we truly pure? Didnt people who were Israel still suffer captivity with the unfaithful? All through the scripture we see them incorporated together, yet the faithful had Gods hand on them (think Shad, Mesh, Abed, Daniel...) Gentiles are people not of the common faith. We are Israel...Those who have faith like faithful Abraham. I compare the people who say they are church (Israel) who are not truly in belief as if they were the 'works' of their lives would be evident to those who do show their faith by their works. I was looking at Hebrews "hall of faith" - what do they all have in common? They exercised their faith showing they believed God and were counted faithful with faithful Abraham. Those in the 'church' today who do not exercise their faith but support doctrines of demons are not. They are the tares.. Not one of us can affirm the people living in the land of Israel are truly of Israel unless we examine their deeds which would reflect Christ, and they currently do not. Realizing we dont see this the same way at this time, I do not want to turn this into anything other than discussion. Its ok if we dont agree on the subject as we are still brothers in Christ. D4L - curious - who do you consider to be a Jew? I ask because we dont know if some, all or any of the people currently living in Israel are Jews. I would also say that those who walk the streets clothed in black with yarmulkes & hats, tzizits, and such are not Jews. do you consider them Jews?
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 11, 2021 6:46:15 GMT -6
uscgvet , Natalie , there may be several reasons for the separation such as the concept of two witnesses, as in two distinct kingdoms in the family, to state that Jesus is Christ. This may be secular and spiritual of which the secular king is not the same as the spiritual priests. In the kingdom there have always been priests and then the addition of kings to rule the kingdom. So I guess it could be said Abraham or Noah were priests of authority from God but they were not kings ruling over a kingdom. It may be the case that the two witnesses of Rev. 11 represent these two parts of authority wherein one represents the secular kingship of Judah over the kingdom and the other represents the priesthood authority of God over the kingdom. Even today when a person goes to church they expect to see some spiritual representation of God via a holy leader; however, they do not expect to be governed secularly by that same individual. No, there seems to be a divided and balanced form of guidance for the people. As I recall from script, there is a time that the priesthood and secular government is given to one person and we know that is Christ. It seems that the governance of Christ as King is coming but the priesthood of Christ came 2,000 years ago. I don't think it's secular and spiritual. Before the separation of Israel and Judah, before Abraham was given the sign of circumcision, the blessing to Abraham came from Melchizedek, king of Salem, both a priest and king. It is my understanding that the rulership and the priesthood are both Godly, not just the priesthood. The "separation" of the two really began to unfold in 1 Samuel 8:7. The kingship was of God, and the people rejected God as their ruler. They wanted a human King, so God's plan was to send Christ through the line of David to be both Priest and King in the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4 & Hebrews 7:1). And as we see in Revelation, the 24 elders, the 4 creatures (which I believe are the church... a new creature [4 gospels]), the trib saints, and the 144k Jewish elect... will also become priests and kings to rule with Christ under that same order (Revelation 1:6 & Revelation 5:10). Both are meant to be together as one from the beginning. God binds them both together in Christ.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 11, 2021 8:35:44 GMT -6
disciple4life Why is that my friend? Aren't we grafted in? Have you ever seen a tree graft? You can still observe the original tree but also can clearly see the graft, but the stump fully supports the branch(es)... Are we truly pure? Didnt people who were Israel still suffer captivity with the unfaithful? All through the scripture we see them incorporated together, yet the faithful had Gods hand on them (think Shad, Mesh, Abed, Daniel...) Gentiles are people not of the common faith. We are Israel...Those who have faith like faithful Abraham. I compare the people who say they are church (Israel) who are not truly in belief as if they were the 'works' of their lives would be evident to those who do show their faith by their works. I was looking at Hebrews "hall of faith" - what do they all have in common? They exercised their faith showing they believed God and were counted faithful with faithful Abraham. Those in the 'church' today who do not exercise their faith but support doctrines of demons are not. They are the tares.. Not one of us can affirm the people living in the land of Israel are truly of Israel unless we examine their deeds which would reflect Christ, and they currently do not. Realizing we dont see this the same way at this time, I do not want to turn this into anything other than discussion. Its ok if we dont agree on the subject as we are still brothers in Christ. D4L - curious - who do you consider to be a Jew? I ask because we dont know if some, all or any of the people currently living in Israel are Jews. I would also say that those who walk the streets clothed in black with yarmulkes & hats, tzizits, and such are not Jews. do you consider them Jews? Romans 11:1-10 Some Jews were elected by Grace even while still in unbelief (Romans 11:5). And because of that grace shown to them, Gentiles were also granted grace. God didn't break off all the branches, he left some by Grace. (Romans 11:17)
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Post by mike on Jun 11, 2021 9:16:00 GMT -6
uscgvetTrying to follow you here brother. Do you mean that He left some of the physical Jews (by grace) even though in unbelief? I'm reading this where Paul asserts his ancestry as being a Jew. But then from verse 2 he asserts that Elijah thought he was the only prophet left. Do you read that the same? Elijah thought he was all alone, but then God tells Elijah there were 7000 others still of the faith, who havent bowed (to Baal). Faith is the key here that I am seeing, not heritage. He goes on to say the rest were blinded. Who are the rest? Those still in darkness, right? Elijah thought he was it the sole survivor but God showed him there were many more who shared the faith. Not that they were Jewish by blood line but their eyes were no longer darkened. Am I not following you here?
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Post by boraddict on Jun 11, 2021 9:42:08 GMT -6
uscgvet , Natalie , there may be several reasons for the separation such as the concept of two witnesses, as in two distinct kingdoms in the family, to state that Jesus is Christ. This may be secular and spiritual of which the secular king is not the same as the spiritual priests. In the kingdom there have always been priests and then the addition of kings to rule the kingdom. So I guess it could be said Abraham or Noah were priests of authority from God but they were not kings ruling over a kingdom. It may be the case that the two witnesses of Rev. 11 represent these two parts of authority wherein one represents the secular kingship of Judah over the kingdom and the other represents the priesthood authority of God over the kingdom. Even today when a person goes to church they expect to see some spiritual representation of God via a holy leader; however, they do not expect to be governed secularly by that same individual. No, there seems to be a divided and balanced form of guidance for the people. As I recall from script, there is a time that the priesthood and secular government is given to one person and we know that is Christ. It seems that the governance of Christ as King is coming but the priesthood of Christ came 2,000 years ago. I don't think it's secular and spiritual. Before the separation of Israel and Judah, before Abraham was given the sign of circumcision, the blessing to Abraham came from Melchizedek, king of Salem, both a priest and king. It is my understanding that the rulership and the priesthood are both Godly, not just the priesthood. The "separation" of the two really began to unfold in 1 Samuel 8:7. The kingship was of God, and the people rejected God as their ruler. They wanted a human King, so God's plan was to send Christ through the line of David to be both Priest and King in the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4 & Hebrews 7:1). And as we see in Revelation, the 24 elders, the 4 creatures (which I believe are the church... a new creature [4 gospels]), the trib saints, and the 144k Jewish elect... will also become priests and kings to rule with Christ under that same order (Revelation 1:6 & Revelation 5:10). Both are meant to be together as one from the beginning. God binds them both together in Christ. Excellent point uscgvet , and with that you have put the final nail in the coffin. No one can argue against what you have said. I don't think that I have seen an argument so solid as the one you have presented here. The only thing that I see in error IMO is that the 144,000 are Jewish. Nevertheless, they are clearly as you have pointed out priests and kings that rule with Christ. In fact they are sealed to the Savior (Rev. 7:4-8) like the Savior is sealed to the Father IMO. Because, they have the Fathers name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). That is, they are one with Jesus as Jesus is one with the Father. And, this is one of my favorite doctrinal points, that the people of the world see Jesus when they see the 144,000. That is, the people of the world will never actually be honored to see the Savior himself but they see him by seeing his representatives (Rev. 1:7). Scripture is so beautiful and those who see the Savior are those that pierced him, and they see him via his 144,000 just as he sends them to hell. They are the clouds of war in that verse (v. 1:7) that links to Rev. 14:14. Thus, those who pierced the Savior via piercing his people (Rev. 13:7) see the Savior as his 144,000 destroy the beast and the beast's army (Rev. 19:20-21). It is a brutal destruction that they are so deserving of. All other people of the earth also see the Savior via the 144,000 when the final call for the repentant is given via the wrath of God. Because, even at that point Jesus will accept a repentant soul IMO.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 11, 2021 9:46:38 GMT -6
uscgvet Trying to follow you here brother. Do you mean that He left some of the physical Jews (by grace) even though in unbelief? I'm reading this where Paul asserts his ancestry as being a Jew. But then from verse 2 he asserts that Elijah thought he was the only prophet left. Do you read that the same? Elijah thought he was all alone, but then God tells Elijah there were 7000 others still of the faith, who havent bowed (to Baal). Faith is the key here that I am seeing, not heritage. He goes on to say the rest were blinded. Who are the rest? Those still in darkness, right? Elijah thought he was it the sole survivor but God showed him there were many more who shared the faith. Not that they were Jewish by blood line but their eyes were no longer darkened. Am I not following you here? The point Elias and Paul were making is that these Jews didn't bow down to the image of Baal. That doesn't mean they bowed down to Christ! It just means they didn't bow down to the image of Baal. We find that in Revelation, this image comes back as the image of the beast. "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded". The election are real, PHYSICAL Jews. They are NOT Gentiles! When the AC creates his image for everyone to worship, that's when it's over for everyone who worships the image and takes the mark. Look. Leviticus 26. That is the proof text that from these Jews, under the works of the law, God's promise NOT to FULLY Abandon all of them. He will leave some. Then later forgive them of all of their sins, unconditionally, those of these Jews whom survive thru God's Wrath.
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Post by mike on Jun 11, 2021 10:02:02 GMT -6
uscgvet So you think the 7000 didnt bow to Baal but also didnt bow to Christ? It doesnt seem to me that some didnt bow to Christ, as previously we Obadiah hid 100 prophets, and here we see Elisha appears not to have bowed either + the other 7000 may have also bowed to the Lord though it does not explicitly state that. Not trying to say youre wrong or anything, just having a hard time following or 'seeing' what you see
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 11, 2021 10:29:33 GMT -6
uscgvet So you think the 7000 didnt bow to Baal but also didnt bow to Christ? It doesnt seem to me that some didnt bow to Christ, as previously we Obadiah hid 100 prophets, and here we see Elisha appears not to have bowed either + the other 7000 may have also bowed to the Lord though it does not explicitly state that. Not trying to say youre wrong or anything, just having a hard time following or 'seeing' what you see "So you think the 7000 didnt bow to Baal but also didnt bow to Christ?" 100% Correct! Christ, while on the cross, asked God to forgive them, they didn't know. Christ had not convinced enough Jews that He fulfilled the law and the prophets as written. But, as God promised all throughout the O.T., God will reserve for himself a small election of Jews. A remnant... Because of His promise to their fathers. Did God cast off all of the Jews? No. (Romans 11:1-2) God reserved a remnant of the Jews that didn't bow to Baal. (Romans 11:3-4) This remnant were elected by Grace, all the rest of the Jews were blinded. (Romans 11:5) Because of this Grace granted to the elected remnant Jews... not Gentiles...!... God extended Grace to the Gentiles (Romans 11:11). How you somehow changed the context from Jews to Gentiles after verse 2 but before verse 11 is beyond me. Maybe I can recommend the ISV version (Chuck Missler's approved version). The KJV is still the authority, but I use the ISV as a thick, somewhat clean rag whilst trying to wield the real Word of God when it gets a little too hot for me to handle in understanding. --------------- Edit: Here is how I read God's Word (KJV with ISV side by side, highlighting and making notes): classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=KJV;ISV
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Post by mike on Jun 11, 2021 10:50:36 GMT -6
uscgvet I didnt change the context. The above is the ISV. 7000 are not said to be exclusively Jews, they are people here in the ISV and men in the KJV. God reserved 7000 (literal or figurative 7000 is neither here nor there), but they are not specified as Jews or Israel, therefore it can be asserted they (the 7000) are people of faith (Israel). Note the YLT uses Men - anér: a man Agree that Paul is speaking about Jews and in context saying the Jews were not 100% excluded from salvation, but that they in their rejection allowed room (if you will) for the nations to be graffed into faith. They too can also be graffed back in as well. Paul is proving that the Jews werent cast complete aside by their unbelief. Bible Hib - Albert Barnes notes
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 11, 2021 11:07:17 GMT -6
uscgvet I didnt change the context. The above is the ISV. 7000 are not said to be exclusively Jews, they are people here in the ISV and men in the KJV. God reserved 7000 (literal or figurative 7000 is neither here nor there), but they are not specified as Jews or Israel, therefore it can be asserted they (the 7000) are people of faith (Israel). Note the YLT uses Men - anér: a man Agree that Paul is speaking about Jews and in context saying the Jews were not 100% excluded from salvation, but that they in their rejection allowed room (if you will) for the nations to be graffed into faith. They too can also be graffed back in as well. Paul is proving that the Jews werent cast complete aside by their unbelief. Bible Hib - Albert Barnes notes Since chapter numbers and verse numbers didn't exist when Paul wrote the letters, let's go back to Chapter 10 to see the context change to Israel. Chapter 10 is about faith in believing. The chapter changes context to Israel (Jews) not believing at the last verse. Then we continue this context of unbelieving Israel (Jews) into Chapter 11. Paul asks: did God reject his people? No! These are unbelieving Jews per Romans 10:21. 1 Kings 19:18 is not God reserving 7000 gentiles... They are Jews! God doesn't put to sleep Gentiles in Deut 29:4; Isa 29:10 quoted from Romans 11:8. He puts to sleep Jews. David wasn't talking about Gentiles in Ps 69:22-23; 35:8 which was quoted from Romans 11:9-10. Those were Jews. The context from Romans 10:21 thru Romans 11:10 is unbelieving Jews.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 11, 2021 11:14:43 GMT -6
uscgvet I didnt change the context. The above is the ISV. 7000 are not said to be exclusively Jews, they are people here in the ISV and men in the KJV. God reserved 7000 (literal or figurative 7000 is neither here nor there), but they are not specified as Jews or Israel, therefore it can be asserted they (the 7000) are people of faith (Israel). Note the YLT uses Men - anér: a man Agree that Paul is speaking about Jews and in context saying the Jews were not 100% excluded from salvation, but that they in their rejection allowed room (if you will) for the nations to be graffed into faith. They too can also be graffed back in as well. Paul is proving that the Jews werent cast complete aside by their unbelief. Bible Hib - Albert Barnes notes THERE!! ! you got it!There are still Jews that were set aside, still in unbelief.And --> because God set these still unbelieving Jews aside, by Grace <-- he extended that grace to Gentiles. It is my humble opinion that the 144k in Revelation are descendants of these Jews that were set aside that Paul talks about here in Romans 11.
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