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Post by lionofgod on Apr 21, 2021 12:12:50 GMT -6
If God wanted us to have all the other letters that were written included in the Bible, then I am sure that He would have gotten them in there. But what we have is enough for salvation, for understanding who God is, for living holy lives. You are free to read them and have your thoughts on them. You may even share from them on this board (siting where your information comes from, please) But for our defense of what we believe, the Bible is all we need. Arguing otherwise breaks rule 1. hmmm, I did post the copy of the rules and my personal beliefs didn't conflict. But you are asserting that when you say historical tenants, you really mean popularly accepted beliefs. Because history has been rewritten for ever as new truth and evidence arrises, learning is adjusted, accept in this case, where you wish to assert that history is static and all wisdom than can be gained from it beyond what is already documented by the specific writings of a couple of authors can be considered fact. That is in itself contradictory to rational thought. All "we" need, is that a statement that you personally know all there is to know about Christs teachings, or is it that you assert no truth can be contained in any document not printed in the current version of what ever bible you personally use? Rule 1 states that Every teaching and statement worthy of study in the entire life of Jesus Christ is contained in the "bible"? I fully understand your position, and since Jesus in the writings you don't read states that all who propagate the false gospels will be judged against the ones they led astray, I've no issue with anyone holding any belief they choose. I choose to promote Jesus. If you are saying it is an unwritten rule that his teachings and history that is not covered in your text, is invalid and a lie, perhaps that is how it should be phrased. Perhaps it can be altered to read. "We accept no Christian teachings or documents or other historical information, that we do not already have. Furthermore, no discussion of Jesus writings outside the ones that are popularly accepted and read, are considered to be truthful or trustworthy, as we place 100 percent faith in the human compilers of the written and accepted bible versions we choose, above any other words of Jesus to the contrary." This would be a more acurate representation of what you are saying, would it not? God bless! |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 21, 2021 12:27:11 GMT -6
Additionally, I am happy to share any and all textual information and sources and etc. for any that have a genuine desire to learn of Jesus. If the intent is simply to prove me wrong and yourself/yourselves right, I'll not aid you in that vain endeavor. Is it really so controversial to suggest people research Jesus and listen to ALL His words? Is that the teaching of Jesus? I know he said seek and you shall find. But i don't recall the addition of only seeking him in one place. It seems to indicate we are to fervently seek him out and follow his Word. He further says that Word was shared with ALL the apostles. I can only seem to locate a few in the bible, can you point out the places to find the accurate recording of the other 75% of The books he and the apostles refer to? If not, wouldn't you agree that actually studying 12 accounts of a situation, by those present to witness it, gives a more full accounting than just one?
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 21, 2021 12:49:10 GMT -6
A Plea for the Christians by AthenagorasThis is a search link to find the many places to get a hold of this authentic text. You just have to be willing to wade through all the info to get a reliable place to find it. Since this is a REAL letter from an actual Christian church leader of the Christian church only a generation or so after Jesus, and it is well documented, I will assume it's authenticity and teaching is acceptable ta all. Unless the understood conclusion is that the original Christians were all wrong ion their beliefs too, as the Jews asserted to the Romans. You want an accurate portrayal of the first Christians beliefs? Read accounts from the first Christians and the apostles. It is really that simple. Here is an enlightening letter to the roman Caesar and Comodus. Enjoy! A Plea for the Christians by Athenagoras - ....pdf (286.37 KB) PS- this letter explains their beliefs and there teachings, they are appealing to the Romans, whom are persecuting them, so he goes into great detail about beliefs and tenets of Christianity. God Bless!
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Post by Natalie on Apr 21, 2021 12:50:54 GMT -6
I am not asserting that history is static. I am asserting that the Bible how we have it is complete. Did you see my other post? That's the part of rule 1 that we see you breaking. You argue that the Bible is incomplete, has errors, isn't sufficient.
Writings of a "couple of authors?" Do you mean the Bible? It has one overarching Author but approximately 40 human writers.
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Post by mike on Apr 21, 2021 13:01:14 GMT -6
Additionally, I am happy to share any and all textual information and sources and etc. for any that have a genuine desire to learn of Jesus. If the intent is simply to prove me wrong and yourself/yourselves right, I'll not aid you in that vain endeavor. Is it really so controversial to suggest people research Jesus and listen to ALL His words? Is that the teaching of Jesus? I know he said seek and you shall find. But i don't recall the addition of only seeking him in one place. It seems to indicate we are to fervently seek him out and follow his Word. He further says that Word was shared with ALL the apostles. I can only seem to locate a few in the bible, can you point out the places to find the accurate recording of the other 75% of The books he and the apostles refer to? If not, wouldn't you agree that actually studying 12 accounts of a situation, by those present to witness it, gives a more full accounting than just one? I am not right, neither are you. We need a standard and that has been established for quite some time now. Certainly we can and should investigate other texts to affirm or refute their validity for their historicity, not canon. The Bereans were commended (Acts 17:11), we should desire to be like them too! But we cant accept documentation because we think its valid. Do your digging, I've said that I would love to discuss it. But to trust these things as the teachings of Christ...not a sound foundation. Take the gospel of Thomas for example. Should we trust that document just because it dates back to roughly 80AD and is attributed to Thomas? Whoever wrote it criticizes Peter and Matthew. Does that position harmonize with what we have in our bibles, or does it bring contradiction and confusion? Ive read some things like this and others like Enoch. Enoch I reads like Genesis 6, pieces of Daniel and other OT prophets all mixed in. Is it inspired and attributed to the right person? Are the rest of the writings ascribed to Enoch also seemingly like they are inspired - nope. Enoch I does sound like the bible to me, but the rest of the book does not align with scripture at all. Jude alludes to one verse in Enoch, but that does not make the entirety of the book canon. It validates the verse as being doctrinal. This would be similar in my mind to where Paul quotes a rabbi or teacher of the Jews in Titus 1:12 saying the witness of this false prophet is true! Does that mean the other words from whoever he quotes are also true? As Ive asked before - in accordance with the rules of the forum, we do not consider these texts to be inspired. They are OK to discuss as topical pieces or opinion, but not used for teaching, instruction, doctrine or otherwise. EDIT - just a thought that came to mind...The book of Jasher is quoted/referred to two or three times in the OT, does that equate to the book being inspired? NOPE. There are contradictions within the book itself and with other extrabiblical documents. For example it says that Esau killed Nimrod, but the in the Talmud it says Shem killed him. What do we do with that? Was Nimrod killed at all, by which one or neither. |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 21, 2021 13:33:38 GMT -6
A letter from Jesus, I assume is acceptable as scripture? Transcribers words/notes in blue.
Letters of Christ and Abgarus
Introduction
Our earliest Greek text of these -which are found in many forms- is that given by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History (i. 13), extracted, as he says, by him from the archives of Edessa relating to Abgar and translated from Syriac word for word:
A copy of a letter written by Abgarus the toparch to Jesus, and sent to him by means of Ananias the runner, to Jerusalem.
Abgarus Uchama the toparch to Jesus the good Saviour that hath appeared in the parts (place) of Jerusalem, greeting. I have heard concerning thee and thy cures, that they are done of thee without drugs or herbs: for, as the report goes, thou makest blind men to see again, lame to walk, and cleansest lepers, and castest out unclean spirits and devils, and those that are afflicted with long sickness thou healest, and raisest the dead.
And having heard all this of thee, I had determined one of two things, either that thou art God come down from heaven, and so doest these things or art a Son of God that doest these things.
Therefore now have I written and entreated thee to trouble thyself to come to me and heal the affliction which I have. or indeed I have heard that the Jews even murmur against thee and wish to do thee hurt. And I have a very little city but (and) comely (reverend), which is sufficient for us both.
The answer, written by Jesus, sent by Ananias the runner to Abgarus the toparch.
Blessed art thou that hast believed in me, not having seen me.
For it is written concerning me that they that have seen me shall not believe in me, and that they that have not seen me shall believe and live. But concerning that which thou hast written to me, to come unto thee; it must needs be that I fulfil all things for the which I was sent here, and after fulfilling them should then be taken up unto him that sent me.
And when I am taken up, I will send thee one of my disciples, to heal thine affliction and give life to thee and them that are with thee.
Later texts add a promise that where this letter is, no enemy shall prevail: and so we find the letter copied and used as an amulet. It was regarded naturally as the palladium of Edessa, but was also thought to act as a protection to individuals.
The letters form an integral part of the story of the mission of Thaddaeus and conversion of Edessa, and part of that legend is that Jesus gave the messenger of Abgarus a handkerchief miraculously imprinted with the picture of his face. Into all this we cannot enter.
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Post by mike on Apr 21, 2021 13:49:08 GMT -6
So I ask you lionofgod to not cite these extra biblical sources as scripture and what do you almost immediately do; Quote something extra biblical as the words of Jesus. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 21, 2021 13:50:51 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Apr 21, 2021 14:00:25 GMT -6
The take away here for me Natalie is that even though it is a fraud, those who follow blind guides will be deceived. They are often willingly deceived as the deceit validates the wickedness in the heart. LionofGod - what Natalie posted is exactly what we are trying to prevent from happening. We're not saying we have it all perfectly figured out or better than someone else or have special revelation. But the bible is the bible and we shouldnt try to add to it nor take away from it. I appreciate that you may not want to hear what others have said about the bible being the bible. I posted that for your benefit thinking you would take interest, but I fear you want to hear what you want to hear. I trust you find truth in your search and that it leads you to Him. God is sovereign. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 26, 2021 20:00:49 GMT -6
I just wanted to post this video relevant to the topic. It's from the series Mike posted earlier in the thread:
The Truth About the "Banned Books" of the Bible: Evidence for the Bible pt14
The first 15 minutes talks about some books that were not included -- they have no heresy, but they weren't considered inspire either. The problem books come about 15 min in.
19:11 Gospel of Thomas
25:43 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
31:55 Gospel of Mary
36:30 Gospel of Peter
41:25 Protoevangelion of James
48:00 Gospel of Judas
50:08 Acts of John
50:35 Acts of Paul
For example: The Gospel of Thomas claims it was written by the Apostle Thomas, but it was written in the year 150. Mike says, "Either a forgery, or a miracle."  |
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Post by mike on May 17, 2021 10:58:37 GMT -6
Mike Winger had a shorter version on Gospel of Thomas, figured I'd share for quick reference. Its the first of 20 questions. I did not listen to 3-20
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