|
Post by stormyknight on Apr 22, 2021 7:45:02 GMT -6
lionofgod , "just hoping some see the sense in actually reading and comparing/contrasting all Jesus words." For what it's worth, I have a copy of "The lost books of the bible", which contains the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Magdelene, and all three books of Enoch as well as digital versions of the Book of Jasher and Jubilees. The book about the lost books is interesting, but I don't give it a whole lot of credence. I too have them and the books of Enoch predate the Old testament. They are all good for reference. I'm wondering about something, though. You keep referring to Jesus' writings? I'm not aware of any actual 'pen to paper' writing that Jesus did other than the whole Word of God. Also, Jesus' virgin mother? You do know Jesus had brothers, right? James, Joseph, Simon and Judas were known scripturally, but he possibly had sisters too. Mary was only a virgin when Jesus was conceived and eventually born. After that she was a mom like all other moms of the world. She is not the 'queen of heaven' that the Catholic church would have you believe. I agree with you. James wrote a gospel, as did all the apostles. Jesus instructed them to do so, it's confirmed by all 12. Thats why I'm wondering why everyone refuses to bother reading or giving credence to the words that didn't get included. It's not like I'm talking about some strange unknown people that have no credit and never knew Jesus. These are the very people that the bible says were the only credible people, yet it's implied that since the compilers didn't see fit to break with orthodoxy, we should just ignore the fact that there is more gospels not in the bible than there are gospels in the bible. Guess I'm just weird that way, I won't put my life, or my eternal soul into the hands of people I've never met, that had their own prior beliefs, which Jesus rebuked. And since both the entities involved neither agree with each other or there own people, how do you place all your trust in that sort of situation, without bothering to do your own homework and reading and comparison. Jesus taught to thousands, according to the bible. But according to the establishment, we need not worry about errors, mistakes, or writings not already provided by the church. And since all the books in question all have the same accounting of the events, there is no concern with authenticity. Well, unless you think there was a global conspiracy to forge all the same documents, by different people, with different languages and different localities, which somehow all give the same statements in 12 different accountings or more. Since those teachings are not in the bible, they have to be excluded for a reason. Can you tell me why? Or is it your held opinion as well, that truth and Jesus take a second seat to keeping the status quo? I place my trust in Jesus Christ alone. I believe that everything I NEED to know as a Christian is in the bible we have today. That book is printed in all languages and is found throughout the world, which in and of itself is a testament to what God wants, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matt. 24:14 The other information is available, but not necessary for instruction, correction, etc... So my answer to your question of why is those other books are not needed, that Jesus made sure the message He preached is what we get. The fact that individuals with nefarious intent may have been the ones that helped compile the book we have today is irrelevant. Jesus uses anyone He wants to accomplish His plan. There surely is truth to be found in those writings, but my POV is that they are not necessary or needed for a complete understanding of the Truth/Gospel of the Kingdom of God. (Kind of like having condiments with a meal. You can make a healthy meal and they may add more flavor, but they don't necessarily make it healthier. Do you know what I mean?)
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 7:46:31 GMT -6
boraddict - you should definitely spend more time in the Gospels and Epistles. Don't dissect them just enjoy the truth there. How do we know how we should live if we don't read the instructions? How will we know our God if we don't read His book? But I understand...Psalms and Proverbs used to be not interesting to me, too. But I have learned to take them a little at a time. Lately, I have been reading a Psalm or two a day and just looking for what they tell me about God. He is wonderful.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 22, 2021 9:00:00 GMT -6
boraddict - you should definitely spend more time in the Gospels and Epistles. Don't dissect them just enjoy the truth there. How do we know how we should live if we don't read the instructions? How will we know our God if we don't read His book? But I understand...Psalms and Proverbs used to be not interesting to me, too. But I have learned to take them a little at a time. Lately, I have been reading a Psalm or two a day and just looking for what they tell me about God. He is wonderful. I read what boraddict wrote and had similar thoughts Natalie. I started reading 1 Psalm a day everyday and when I finish Psalms, continue to Proverbs for 31 days, then repeat. BORA - the Psalms are very very prophetic in nature. IIRC there is more prophecy in Psalms then anyplace else in the bible. But I do recommend Natalies approach, read the text, study elsehwere verse by verse and the Holy Spirit will bring these others verse to remembrance when studying. Just my $0.02
|
|
|
Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 10:08:29 GMT -6
I place my trust in Jesus Christ alone. I believe that everything I NEED to know as a Christian is in the bible we have today. That book is printed in all languages and is found throughout the world, which in and of itself is a testament to what God wants, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matt. 24:14 The other information is available, but not necessary for instruction, correction, etc... So my answer to your question of why is those other books are not needed, that Jesus made sure the message He preached is what we get. The fact that individuals with nefarious intent may have been the ones that helped compile the book we have today is irrelevant. Jesus uses anyone He wants to accomplish His plan. There surely is truth to be found in those writings, but my POV is that they are not necessary or needed for a complete understanding of the Truth/Gospel of the Kingdom of God. (Kind of like having condiments with a meal. You can make a healthy meal and they may add more flavor, but they don't necessarily make it healthier. Do you know what I mean?) I understand. i'm not trying to say that Jesus words and message are not correct in the bible, but he explains prophesy and heaven and other things that help you understand in the other apostles writings. I believe that God. in His infinite wisdom, knew Jesus couldn't be kept out, so the "core" message is within. "Believe in Jesus and you will receive the spirit and will be born again at the second coming. I'm just thorough. I like having all the information available when I'm committing my life to something. I'd been told there were fake gospels, but never read any. Upon reading all credible ones, I found that there was very few, "fakes" written before the 300 to 500 AD time. Closer to Jesus death, the less forgery, since the apostles were still around after Jesus to defend the belief. After they all died, everything changed quickly.Jews didn't agree, Christians couldn't agree, both fractioned. Turns out that the Catholic church and the Jewish elders had one thing in common, they both like the power of being the one God spoke to. They were "special". Had "secret" knowledge. They Jews kept what they called the "secret" books. The Catholics got ahold of some and initially only the priests were allowed to have them. When the 1611 KJV was made, the translator included some of these, the papacy had a cow and made a revised edition, dropping all the said books and keeping the rest. For generations the priest had the "mystical" books, but even though they taught from them, no congregation members got to see. Same type thing with the Jews, seems everyone wants to have a "special" person, that is divinely inspired. And giving up that power to the masses was not a choice made voluntarily. So, since everyone involved had reason to not want to reveal all, I thought it prudent to explore how, why and when each version of text was assembled, and what was kept out. What I discovered was that there were credible books and teachings not included. I read them to discover why. It was obvious from the very first manuscript of Paul, which was not included in his writings in the bible either. Jesus teachings that are not in the bible, are all in line with his previous teachings, buy seem to definitely part from God of the Old Testament. Furthermore, he elaborates on sin and works etc. He confirms that after receiving the spirit, one does not sin. Or at least one has to choose sin. That and a few other things he taught, go against the orthodox Jewish and Catholic religions, so there is good reason they were not included. Since authenticity was not an issue. I then read writings of Christians and sermon from the time, and they seemed to both confirm this and reveal the split in thinking at the time. Jesus teaching are all spiritual, he focused on forgiveness and denial of the flesh. The Old Testament has a different and almost opposing message. Jesus explains why, that is probably the main reason those books never made it in. They point out all the opposing acts and views of the Hebrew God. He also delineates between that God and His Father. He gives a different version of heaven than the Old Testament. I just strongly feel that if there is more information and teaching of Jesus, who is our savior, why would anyone simply ignore it? Jesus didn't lie, so anything he says is valuable to your spiritual growth, even if you already believe in him. Like the example you gave with the hamburger. I'd like to choose my condiments, not have them chosen for me. It's like, if you believe in Jesus, your going to heaven, but how blessed you are there is determined by your condiments, and I want all the blessings I can have. The more glory to Him, the better for me.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 11:40:28 GMT -6
and
This is dangerous teaching.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 11:46:53 GMT -6
You also pretty much just said why they were never included. They are heretical. Please stop promoting them.
Please stop arguing against the Bible (that is rule #1).
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Apr 22, 2021 12:29:25 GMT -6
I know this all should probably go to another thread, but I'm probably at the end of my reach here. First of all, I understand you want to get as much information as possible from as many sources as possible. I do as well. I wish I didn't have to work and could spend 100% of my time searching out the Word of God. This is challenging for me to do at work and next to impossible at home helping take care of my 16 month old grandson. But, please, lionofgod, help me to understand these statements you made: I believe that God. in His infinite wisdom, knew Jesus couldn't be kept out, so the "core" message is within. first of all, God knew Jesus couldn't be kept out of what exactly? He confirms that after receiving the spirit, one does not sin. Or at least one has to choose sin. "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me" Romans 7:14-20...of the Hebrew God. He also delineates between that God and His Father. He gives a different version of heaven than the Old Testament. What? The Hebrew God? He and Jesus' Father and Jesus Himself are one and the same! "I and the Father are one" John 10:30 Also, there are many um, what would you call them, markers? that show Jesus and Yahweh, to be one and the same. The voice from the burning bush: maybe was the voice of a messenger of God, but God's message nonetheless and then Jesus with the Crown of thorns. The burning bush is purported to be a thorn bush. Also, in the beginning the Spirit moved over the face of the waters just as Jesus walked on the waters of the sea of Galilee during a storm. There are plenty more examples. These are not just catchy similarities.I'd like to choose my condiments, not have them chosen for me. It's like, if you believe in Jesus, your going to heaven, but how blessed you are there is determined by your condiments, and I want all the blessings I can have. You don't want Jesus choosing your condiments for you? No, that's not fair, sorry, I know what you are saying. That men, perhaps corrupt men, made the decisions for what is included in today's bible. I understand, but I also say that even though these men had nefarious intent, God still made sure that what they decided was in line with His plan. Also, how blessed you are in heaven is not determined by the resources(condiments) you use to learn, but by what you do with God's Spirit after He gives it to you by His Grace. Matt. 25:14-30 the parable of the talents.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 12:58:40 GMT -6
This is a great teaching series on Jesus in the Old Testament for anyone who is interested.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 14:20:15 GMT -6
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (if you read further, the religious leaders picked up stones to stone Him because He was claiming to be the God of the OT and this was blasphemy to them.) Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 14:30:24 GMT -6
another one -- John 18:3-8 So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.”
If you look at the footnotes in your Bible, there should be a footnote for verses 5, 6, and 8. "I am He" is the Greek ego eimi. It means "I am" or "I exist". The "he" is added by translators. (It should be in italics in the NKJV) Sometimes it simply means "I am" (like in the statements "I am the good Shepherd" or "I am the way, the truth, and the life") but sometimes, like in this passage, it signifies "I AM" as in the book of Exodus. You can see this by the reaction of those He spoke to.
|
|
|
Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 15:29:06 GMT -6
As per Natalie, I assume to be a moderator here, I will not explain further on the boards. I have a same but differing view, so if you want answers on my opinions, I will respond to personal messages, if thats ok with the powers that be. If not, I will respond via email if it is easier. But as I truly am not here to convert just to share, I won't, well I will do my best to stay within what is acceptable to this site. Hopefully that clears up any issues further. I will find a place without spiritual restrictions on opinion, to air any further things of the unacceptable/undoctrinal/unpopular/whatever word type. I'll try to not mention any additional information I am revealed that doesn't coincide with the viewpoint, as I understand it to be now. Short of that, I can only leave all together. If that is the preference of the deciding parties, I'll honor that decision as well. Hope that covers it. God Bless!
|
|
|
Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 16:32:06 GMT -6
I do have one question, where do I discuss the contradictions of the Old and New Testament at? Is there a board for this? Excluding any extra biblical stuff that is.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 16:38:20 GMT -6
I do have one question, where do I discuss the contradictions of the Old and New Testament at? Is there a board for this? Excluding any extra biblical stuff that is.
Put it in the Apologetics & Bible category. I did a quick search and there is a thread about Biblical Inconsistencies. That may not be what you are looking for, so feel free to start a different thread.
Start with your best example - don't flood us with a bunch at once.
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Apr 22, 2021 18:02:01 GMT -6
I do have one question, where do I discuss the contradictions of the Old and New Testament at? Is there a board for this? Excluding any extra biblical stuff that is. I would like to see the contradictions to which you refer because to me there are no contradictions between the OT and NT. I would suggest that there are misunderstanding; because, the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. One thing that has been suggested is that the God of the OT was more war inclined. However, the Savior's mission in the NT was about his payment for sin and salvation for the repentant; and, the same OT destruction is right around the corner.
|
|
|
Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 21:19:25 GMT -6
I do have one question, where do I discuss the contradictions of the Old and New Testament at? Is there a board for this? Excluding any extra biblical stuff that is. I would like to see the contradictions to which you refer because to me there are no contradictions between the OT and NT. I would suggest that there are misunderstanding; because, the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. One thing that has been suggested is that the God of the OT was more war inclined. However, the Savior's mission in the NT was about his payment for sin and salvation for the repentant; and, the same OT destruction is right around the corner. I started a thread. I will be posting direct quotes from scripture. However, if you have to take aliteral statement and turn it figurative to justify a position, then it is not the same as agreeing. IMO. Hope to have some good talks on the subject.
|
|