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Post by Gary on Feb 23, 2021 9:18:03 GMT -6
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Post by bernie on Feb 23, 2021 11:33:34 GMT -6
Very interesting, don't believe I heard it this way before.
Another thing that struck me while reading this, although I've read Revelation 6:16 many times, those left behind calling for the rocks to fall on them, they know it's the wrath of the Lamb. How sad, they know it's Jesus, but they still won't repent and believe, or maybe it's too late and they can't.
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Post by rt on Feb 23, 2021 13:35:36 GMT -6
Gary, Thanks for sharing, this is a great study, scripture is so amazing!
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Post by venge on Feb 24, 2021 7:50:28 GMT -6
Gary , Thanks for sharing, this is a great study, scripture is so amazing! , I wont nit pick at everything in there but it falsely says: By that comment, the writer is saying Irenaeus is Pre-TB. That statement is 100% false. He continues in that Ch, That places the resurrection in Christ Kingdom (eternal vs temporal) We must endure tribulation. We don't go to heaven before it. Now read what he says in Book V, Ch XXIX What is the Churches last contest, when they overcome receive a incorruptible crown? Jacob's trouble. Irenaeus believed we would go through it! He continues: Irenaeus points out that the first resurrection in Rev 20 is the resurrection of the just that we are appointed to. Not 7 years before hand, but which happens at the 2nd advent in Christ Kingdom! In Ch. XXXV Paul states in Acts 24:15 that there are 2 resurrections. A resurrection of the just and the unjust. This is the first and second resurrection of Revelation. Irenaeus believed we would encounter AC, he would fight the Church and destroy the saints. That the resurrecrion/rapture would happen as the Bible lays out: in the last day, at Christ coming, in HIS Kingdom, after the destruction of all nations under AC rule. And ther are plenty more things he has said that he is POST TB. Christ said in his own words: Eternal life when? In this temporal world we live in or in the world to come, that isnt here yet but we long for and wait for - all creation groans for. That world is when we get eternal life. This backs up Irenaeus. |
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Post by rt on Feb 24, 2021 9:05:41 GMT -6
venge , I don't necessarily agree with everything in the linked post, but the meaning of words in particular is interesting to me. You and I have gone back and forth a bit about the timing of the rapture. I am not so concerned about what views Irenaeus held regarding the rapture, he is just a man, like us who was trying to figure it all out. What the early church understood about the "rapture" is up for debate, Irenaeus is but one voice, so I don't put a lot of weight on his writings concerning this topic either way. Of course he had many good things to say as he pushed back on the gnostics and other heresies of his day, but that does not mean that everything he claimed was in line with scripture. With the technology we have today and the wealth of knowledge concerning the scriptures themselves, the average person who spends the time studying can draw their own conclusions, however flawed they may be, without ever consulting the early writings of the "church". I do adhere to a pre tribulation rapture view, albeit different than the traditional way of seeing things, as you already know. I do however agree that those who are true believers will face trials and tribulations as we live out our faith. I can testify to this in my own life, though my trials pale in comparison with the trials of other believers around the world who live in societies where they are suffering in ways that I can hardly grasp. So the idea that we must endure tribulation IMO doesn't mean that we all have to endure "The Tribulation" as in the great tribulation that follows the the abomination of desolation. I do believe that there will be some who do though, those who become believers during the 70th week, they will endure at least some of it; the effects of the trumpets up until they are martyred for their faith for failing to comply with the "mark of the beast" system.
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 24, 2021 9:38:22 GMT -6
Gary, bernie, rt, venge, please take the time to watch this video from Andy Woods. I think I got it to start at the crucial point where he explains about Matt. verses 39 and then 40-41. It is important to know that Jesus is addressing the Jews in Matt. 24, not the church, although we can take the signs given to know what season we are in. And if you all get the time, go back and watch/listen to Andy's whole series on the rapture.
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Post by venge on Feb 24, 2021 13:06:26 GMT -6
venge , I don't necessarily agree with everything in the linked post, but the meaning of words in particular is interesting to me. You and I have gone back and forth a bit about the timing of the rapture. I am not so concerned about what views Irenaeus held regarding the rapture, he is just a man, like us who was trying to figure it all out. What the early church understood about the "rapture" is up for debate, Irenaeus is but one voice, so I don't put a lot of weight on his writings concerning this topic either way. Of course he had many good things to say as he pushed back on the gnostics and other heresies of his day, but that does not mean that everything he claimed was in line with scripture. With the technology we have today and the wealth of knowledge concerning the scriptures themselves, the average person who spends the time studying can draw their own conclusions, however flawed they may be, without ever consulting the early writings of the "church". I do adhere to a pre tribulation rapture view, albeit different than the traditional way of seeing things, as you already know. I do however agree that those who are true believers will face trials and tribulations as we live out our faith. I can testify to this in my own life, though my trials pale in comparison with the trials of other believers around the world who live in societies where they are suffering in ways that I can hardly grasp. So the idea that we must endure tribulation IMO doesn't mean that we all have to endure "The Tribulation" as in the great tribulation that follows the the abomination of desolation. I do believe that there will be some who do though, those who become believers during the 70th week, they will endure at least some of it; the effects of the trumpets up until they are martyred for their faith for failing to comply with the "mark of the beast" system. , I understand. I am only pointing out that the comment made by the writer is false based upon Irenaeus own words; regardless if someone believes in his eschatology or not. His opinion is not what the writer of the article said it was. |
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Post by venge on Feb 24, 2021 13:09:57 GMT -6
stormyknight , Respectively brother, I do not listen to Andy Woods because I don't agree with his idea of Pre-TB nor do I agree with his idea of the Church is separate from the Jews: As if God cannot work both groups at the same time and he needs to separate each group and work in them independently at different time periods. That is not above God; He can do anything. EDIT: I should add, in regards to Irenaeus, he believed the Church was Israel! Here is one point. 2nd EDIT: If Matthew 24 is for the Jews, why do Christians take the part that says 2 are taken, 1 is left? You cant take something and say its another
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 24, 2021 15:24:46 GMT -6
stormyknight , Respectively brother, I do not listen to Andy Woods because I don't agree with his idea of Pre-TB nor do I agree with his idea of the Church is separate from the Jews: As if God cannot work both groups at the same time and he needs to separate each group and work in them independently at different time periods. That is not above God; He can do anything. EDIT: I should add, in regards to Irenaeus, he believed the Church was Israel! Here is one point. 2nd EDIT: If Matthew 24 is for the Jews, why do Christians take the part that says 2 are taken, 1 is left? You cant take something and say its another I took Matt. 24:40-41 to be the rapture for a very long time, venge , but no longer. If you would, please make an exception and listen to this video. Andy explains it very well. We, as flesh-bound Christians, are notorious at taking things out of context all the time. I believe this passage is no different. As for the Jews and the Church being separate, isn't Israel God's wife and the Church Jesus' wife to be? There is duality through out the scriptures. If I'm not mistaken, Israel is promised an earthly Kingdom, while the Church is promised the Kingdom of Heaven. And that, brother, is the point of Matt. 24:39-41. Those taken go to judgement and those left, at Jesus Christ's return, will enter into that earthly Kingdom that Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. That is not to say they won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven eventually, but, as humans on the earth, as believing Jews, they will enter Jesus' earthly Kingdom. Nor does this negate any of the promises that the Church will receive due to being grafted in to the olive tree that is Israel. Also, in regard to the two Kingdoms, we know what an earthly Kingdom is, but, some of the references to the Kingdom of Heaven aren't what we have been assuming when we hear the term. It has been confused with the Kingdom of God, I think, where God is the ultimate ruler. Jesus describes the Kingdom of Heaven in Matt. 13:44 as 'basileia ton ouranon', which can also be interpreted as 'the realm of the sky'. Kind of like the terms Animal Kingdom or Plant Kingdom. Think of what Jesus told Nicodemus, "...The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8 The remnant of Jews that are left after the Great Tribulation that are also believers, will, with Jesus as King, establish the new nation of Israel, the earthly Kingdom. We, as Jesus' bride, will assist in that rule. It will all be straightened out soon. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Jesus will guide us. |
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Post by Gary on Feb 25, 2021 11:08:35 GMT -6
"I wont nit pick at everything in there but it falsely says:
By that comment, the writer is saying Irenaeus is Pre-TB. That statement is 100% false."
100% false according to you. There is debate about Irenaeus. His teaching isn't particularly clear and I've read the whole thing.
stormyknight, I love Andy and agree with 97.4% of his teachings, but differ with him on the fig tree and in regards to Mt. 24 I'm on the fence about it being exclusively about the Jews as Woods, Kelley, and also hyper-dispensationalism teaches. I definitely think Mt. 24 is primarily about the Trib/Day of the LORD and that's the context, however I think there may be a context shift in the last half of the passage.
The possible rapture hints (parable of the master at the end, "day and hour," days of Noah/Lot, "one received, one left," etc) are hard to reconcile with the post-trib and Jew-exclusive views. I've never been able to reconcile "as in the days of Noah and Lot" and the normalcy described (people marrying, doing commerce and agriculture, etc) with post-Trib where 2/3rds+ of the world pop will be dead, 100% of large bodies of water will be blood, rivers will be poison, 100-lb hailstones will be crushing people into wine, and most will have taken the mark and be covered in boils and horrific sunburns.
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Post by venge on Feb 25, 2021 17:14:52 GMT -6
"I wont nit pick at everything in there but it falsely says: By that comment, the writer is saying Irenaeus is Pre-TB. That statement is 100% false." 100% false according to you. There is debate about Irenaeus. His teaching isn't particularly clear and I've read the whole thing. stormyknight, I love Andy and agree with 97.4% of his teachings, but differ with him on the fig tree and in regards to Mt. 24 I'm on the fence about it being exclusively about the Jews as Woods, Kelley, and also hyper-dispensationalism teaches. I definitely think Mt. 24 is primarily about the Trib/Day of the LORD and that's the context, however I think there may be a context shift in the last half of the passage. The possible rapture hints (parable of the master at the end, "day and hour," days of Noah/Lot, "one received, one left," etc) are hard to reconcile with the post-trib and Jew-exclusive views. I've never been able to reconcile "as in the days of Noah and Lot" and the normalcy described (people marrying, doing commerce and agriculture, etc) with post-Trib where 2/3rds+ of the world pop will be dead, 100% of large bodies of water will be blood, rivers will be poison, 100-lb hailstones will be crushing people into wine, and most will have taken the mark and be covered in boils and horrific sunburns. , When Irenaeus says: I am pretty sure he is stating, as well as all his other writings: AC comes, he puts the Church to flight. In that time (Jacobs trouble), the resurrection doesnt happen till after all nations are destroyed under him. That is completely the opposite of Pre-TB |
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 26, 2021 14:55:26 GMT -6
I understand, Gary,. There are some things that Andy talks about that I don't agree with myself, but they are trivial compared with our salvation. There are also plenty of verses in Scripture that give us the hope of the Rapture that there is no need to split hairs, so to speak. That moment in Matt. 24:40-41 is kind of heart breaking in a way, in that, if it's the rapture, then the one left sees the other lifted up/disappear/changed, and then know that they, themselves, are left behind. If this portrays those taken as being sent to judgement while the one left gets to enter the Kingdom, then the one left will know that the other will be gone forever, that is unless God instantly, and mercifully, erases all memory of them. |
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Post by mike on Feb 26, 2021 18:15:41 GMT -6
I understand, Gary,. There are some things that Andy talks about that I don't agree with myself, but they are trivial compared with our salvation. There are also plenty of verses in Scripture that give us the hope of the Rapture that there is no need to split hairs, so to speak. That moment in Matt. 24:40-41 is kind of heart breaking in a way, in that, if it's the rapture, then the one left sees the other lifted up/disappear/changed, and then know that they, themselves, are left behind. If this portrays those taken as being sent to judgement while the one left gets to enter the Kingdom, then the one left will know that the other will be gone forever, that is unless God instantly, and mercifully, erases all memory of them.Stormy this sounds odd to me. Am I reading correctly. Are you saying those who reject Christ are taken and those who love His appearing are left on earth? If I am reading that as you intended, how do you reconcile the great white throne 1000 years later? [/B] |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 26, 2021 18:57:00 GMT -6
mike ,
I think stormy and I see this similarly...
When Christ physically returns, the Jews who have accepted Him, any believers left alive, and those who did not follow the beast will be left on earth as Jesus establishes His Kingdom. Those who followed the beast will be taken away to judgment. They wouldn't be judged right away, just like those who die today aren't judged right away. But they aren't allowed into the Kingdom.
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 26, 2021 23:06:16 GMT -6
mike ,
I think stormy and I see this similarly...
When Christ physically returns, the Jews who have accepted Him, any believers left alive, and those who did not follow the beast will be left on earth as Jesus establishes His Kingdom. Those who followed the beast will be taken away to judgment. They wouldn't be judged right away, just like those who die today aren't judged right away. But they aren't allowed into the Kingdom. , I won't pretend to speak for Stormy - he's totally able to do that on his own,  but that is also how I understood his post, and Natalie stated it very well. This passage is about the wicked being taken away, but not at the rapture - at the second coming. EDIT -- In other words - YES, Sort of. You are correct that "the ones taken, are the righteous - the bride of Christ , and the ones left are the wicked" ** in regards to the rapture/ The Harpazo. That is indeed the case with Harpazo - but there isn't anything to reconcile, because this passage is the second coming - and is not referring to the rapture. There is very clear evidence for this position. I had my post with multiple scriptures, quotes and sources and just lost it all - Head exploding. Uggggggghhhhh. Not only is this made clear by Christ himself, but we also see this confirmed by the account in Luke 17:26-27. 26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all."
Pulpit Commentary
Luke 17, Verses 26-28. - "As it was in the days of Nee (Noah)... as it was in the days of Lot. Men, just as in the days when the ark was building and Noah was preaching, as in the days when the dark cloud was gathering over the doomed cities of the plain and Abraham was praying, will be entirely given up to their pursuits, their pleasures, and their sins. They will argue that the sun rose yesterday and on many yesterdays; of course it will rise to-morrow. Perfect security will have taken possession of the whole race, just as, on a smaller scale, was the case in the days of Noah and of Lot, when the floods came and the fire, and did their stern, pitiless work; so will that day of the second coming of Messiah, with its' bloody and fiery dawn, assuredly come on man when he is utterly unprepared." Luke 17:26 In the text of the commentary, we see three very significant points, 1. That the passage is not about the rapture at all, but the second coming, and that it is the wicked which are taken away to judgment and destruction. and 2. That the second coming is always described with negative terms - it's terrible, darkness, gloom, calamity, judgment, and with it's bloody an fiery dawn" while the rapture is never described in these terms. The Day of Christ is described with joy, gladness, sounding of trumpets, and coronation of a king. 3. Just like in the story of Noah, Lot and the rapture parable told by Christ of the 10 bridesmaids - it is the wicked, the unrighteous who do not know the day, and are caught by surprise. biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/17-26.htm "The phrase “the coming of the Son of Man” refers to the Second Coming of Christ. That is how Jesus used the phrase in Matthew 24. For more information read “Is Matthew 24:30-31 about the rapture or second coming?” Therefore, this is the first reason that we know Matthew 24:40-41 describes an event that will occur at the Second Coming of Christ and not the rapture. The second reason that Matthew 24:40-41 refers to what will happen at the Second Coming of Christ is that the phrase “ will be taken” in verse 40 refers to “death.” Again, we will look at the preceding verses (v. 37-39). For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:37-39 (NASB) We should mention that the phrase “the coming of the Son of Man” occurs two times in these three verses. Therefore, Jesus is continuing to describe events that would occur at the Second Coming of Christ. Now notice that Jesus says that at “the coming of the Son of Man” people will be living for pleasure just as the people did at the time of Noah. Then when Noah entered the ark, the people were “unaware” or surprised. Who?? The Wicked. But they understood when the flood came. This reveals that Noah had been warning them of coming judgment and the flood. When the flood came, they were swept away by the water and drowned resulting in their deaths. Carefully notice Jesus’ words in verse 39. He said those who were not inside the ark were taken away. Noah and his family remained alive or were “left,” but everyone else was “taken away” or died. The flood “took them all away.” www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/does-two-men-in-field-one-taken-one-left-refer-to-rapture/When we discuss the rapture, there is one "Gold-standard" text that is agreed upon by every person and Bible scholar who believes in the physical rapture - That passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Whatever else the rapture may include in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it clearly consists of a translation of living believers and the simultaneous resurrection of dead saints. COMPARISON OF 1 THESSALONIANS 4:17 AND MATTHEW 24:31 In an attempt to equate Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as referring to the same event, Dr. Gundry notes “parallel terminology in Paul’s Thessalonian discussion of the Church’s rapture, where we read of a trumpet, clouds, and a gathering of believers just as in the Olivet Discourse.” Indeed, there are some similarities between the rapture and the second coming. There are also some similarities between Christ’s first advent 2,000 years ago and His second advent. But all agree that they are not the same events. We know they are not the same because of the differences. In the case of comparing Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it is the differences that are important. Enough differences exist between the two passages to clearly conclude that they must be separate events. Dr. Steven McAvoy points out that “the differences between Paul’s Thessalonian statements and Matthew 24:30-31 far outweigh any alleged similarities.” digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1106&context=pretrib_arch Finally, we have the clear words of Christ who tells us in the very next verse of the same passage that the wicked were taken, but we also see this confirmed again in the story of the sheep and the goats. - The Great White Throne judgment, or "Bema Seat" . Bema was the special box for judges in the Ancient Greek Olympics, and in Hebrew, Bema is the special raised platform in a synagogue, where people stand when they read the Torah. The goats are "taken away" to judgment, and the sheep are left with Christ to reign in the final 7th day, - the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ. |
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but that is also how I understood his post, and Natalie stated it very well. This passage is about the wicked being taken away, but not at the rapture - at the second coming.