The Wrath of God

Hello my brother. ;-)

The question you raise and the verses are really good and it really encourages me and motivates me to study. We both share this passion, along with many fellow watchmen, to really dig deeper and study not only the meaning of specific words, but also the context, and the audience.

I appreciate how you are looking at the different possible translations for wrath, and the different occasions where we see this phrase. ;-)

I know you know this, it's more for others who are new, or not as well-versed in Bible study, but we have to remember that we as Non-Greek speakers do Bible study backwards.
We have to not only look for occurrences of a word or phrase in English, but look at how the English word or phrase may have 3 or 4 different words in the original. Your example of wrath is excellent.

What I'm trying to say, is that a person who just does an in-depth word study on wrath is really making a huge mistake.
We have to also look at the concept of wrath - what else is it ? In other words, - it's true to say that a big theme of the Tribulation is wrath, but it's equally true to compare this with the larger concept of Judgment.

- What does it mean to have one's name written in the book of life? and what does it mean to have it blotted out.??
- What is the significance of the door of heaven opened, and conversely, what does is the significance of the door of heaven to be closed. ?? **Two huge themes that run through the New Testament that most Christians miss.
It's at Day of Atonement that the Door is closed and the judgment is meted out, and God makes the judgment for the wicked and his wrath is dispensed.

    - What do we see - what kinds of words, descriptions -do we see when we study the Day of the Lord??
It's darkness, gloom, calamity, terrible, judgment, punishment and destruction. It's literally the stuff that Hollywood horror films are made of.

    - Do we see any of these kinds of words that Paul uses in the rapture passages, or the passages of the rapture that Christ uses ? No, we don't.
There is a reason, and We should ask ourselves why??

    - Why is it that for thousands of years, Christ and John and others use the exact word pictures that have been understood as Omens by Gentiles - horrible signs of terrible things, even as a curse/punishment by Gentiles for thousands of years - the Sun turning black.  Does Paul or Christ or John ever use this metaphor with the rapture?? No. 

    - Why is it that Paul, John, Christ, Amos, Daniel, Isaiah, David, Micah, and Gospel writers, all use the same kinds of descriptions when talking about the Day of the Lord- which Jews before Christ, and down through the millennia to the present - understand as the 7 year tribulation, and these same writers, - all use totally different language and descriptions to talk about the rapture??
It's because they are two separate and distinct events, with separate and distinctly different goals and purposes.

• It's no accident or coincidence that Christ's first miracle was at a wedding,  and that over and over and over Christ used idioms related to wedding and birth, which the audience understood, when He was talking about the rapture.  
• It's also clear that over and over, Christ, Paul and John, use the exact same idiom, of the Thief in the Night, - another idiom which was the captain of the Temple guard, - always used in the context of those sleeping, not watching, and the result is punishment, judgment, penalty, destruction.  

For the temple guards caught sleeping, they would be beaten and their robes set on fire, - and they threw off their robes, running naked into the courtyard.  
For the foolish/wicked bridesmaids, - they did not know the hour- [the other 5 did] and the door was shut - [judgment- Day of Atonement] and they were left out of the marriage. 

Paul makes in unmistakbly clear when he tells the mixed church of Jewish and Gentile believers - that they are NOT children of darkness, but children of the day, so that day will NOT surprise them like a thief in the night.  

When we look at the whole counsel of scripture and look at the Jewish cultural context of the writers and the audience, it's clear that the rapture and second coming are totally different times and events.  
Many examples over and over of the righteous being spared, saved, lifted out of harm, calamity and trouble, many of which were warned in advance by an angel, a prophet or God himself.  

The notion of God subjecting his Bride to tribulation to purify her or punish her is not consistent with scripture. 

The Bride is lifted up and concealed in the wedding chamber, as David pointed out in Psalms. 

The Purpose of the Tribulation is the Ultimate Salvation of the Jewish Nation.  

What do you do with all the promises God made to Israel?

What about Jeremiah 30? Joel 3:1-2? Amos 9:13-15? Is it just part of the "so much more" of Revelation?

What do you do with passages like Hosea 2 (specifically 2:14-23). For He is speaking to Israel. The life of Hosea was a picture of God and Israel. Israel is married to God the Father. There are Scriptures that say this. The Church is promised to God the Son. Yes, currently Jews who put their faith in Messiah are grafted in to be part of the Bride, but God is not talking to the Church in Hosea 2. He is talking to His unfaithful wife, Israel.

They may have been left desolate for a time, but God is not finished with Israel.

Regardless of the broad spectrum of views regarding the timing, - when the wrath is poured out, it certainly affects Jewish people and Israel.

The notion of saying we only want a discussion that doesn't include Jews is as offensive as saying we only want a discussion that doesn't involve Asians or Latinos.
The tribulation and wrath affects every non-christian and ethnic group which includes Jews and Israel as much as it includes and affects Chinese and Latinos.

Agreed mike ,. Believers in any time period (history or future) are part of the body of Christ. That includes believers during "Orge" after the 6th seal. Christ said we will always have "thlipsis".

For others, I wanted to address this:

It is the same word :thlipsis that is used in Matthew 24:21

We are NEVER saved from tribulation (thlipsis). We go through it, endure it and conquer it as Christ has.

"Orge" and "Thumos" is the context. So when someone says "tribulation", it is unscriptural that we are to avoid it as Christians. We are never promised that nor are we promised that it lasts 7 years, its equated with God's wrath or that a rapture happens before any "thlipsis". Tribulation and the flood are not the same context.

This is why it is important to study the actual words used to avoid making mistakes like the above. Why did John use 2 different words for God's wrath in Revelation but to make a distinction between his wrath poured out and his judgment. His flaring up and his controlled temper. His precise judgment vs a wide judgment. Why allow people to be witnessed to (by the 2 witnesses), hoping they repent and be changed during "Orge" and not "Thumos"? Why does it matter who takes the mark if this is God's wrath and they all have no hope? Obviously, John wanted us to look at other scripture and see and not to make conflated judgments of our own such as has been done in some Churches today.

The discussion is on God’s wrath, the words used, why John used both, and is counter to tribulation. This particular discussion is not meant to address physical or spiritual Israel.

Noah was saved from the flood (wrath) the same day he entered the ark. What type of wrath was this? Is this wrath the same language as Sodom, Babylon or others? In all these cases, how long did God’s wrath last? Days, weeks or years? Did OT prophets and Jews go through wrath without experiencing wrath?



These are questions we aught to understand.

Sadly, the topic here is not meant to address those things. I am not sure why people are pushing for it. Unless you don't agree with definitions of wrath and that interferes with your end times theory? In this case, I think 1 Thess 5:9-10 speaks for itself.


or 1 Thess 1:10

In both examples, this wrath is "Orge", not "thlipsis" (tribulation). If we are to use these 2 verses as the reason we are to escape wrath and to be raptured...it is impossible to say it is Pre-Tribulation. That is, not the theory itself, but the title of the theory. 

What about Romans 5:9

Like the 2 examples above, this also uses "Orge".  So, I suppose my question is why do many churches still say we escape tribulation? My own Church does this. God's wrath isnt inflicted upon us daily. If it becomes wide spread, encompassing multiple nations, that still doesnt make it God's wrath. Is there anything else that constitutes God's wrath besides a word like "Orge" or "Thumos"?

venge As you may know I am reading/studying Isaiah.
ebrah: overflow, arrogance, fury

Original Word: עֶבְרָה

Part of Speech: Noun Feminine

Transliteration: ebrah

Phonetic Spelling: (eb-raw')

Definition: overflow, arrogance, fury

This word ebrah is also used in Job 40:11 (among other places) and considered 'an outburst of anger'. Are you differentiating Orge and Thumos in a similar manner where wrath is very sudden, extreme yet short and quick (Thumos) and wrath as an outpouring where is slower and less severe (Orge)?