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Post by venge on Jul 16, 2020 7:50:37 GMT -6
I have read countless articles about how people view the 10 horns of the beast. Some examples are:
1. The 10 horns symbolize 10 different Pope's in history; the implication makes them not concurrent with each other but through time.
2. The 10 horns symbolize men
3. The 10 horns symbolize kingdoms
4. The 10 horns symbolize people who work in the AC's inner circle for his government
5. The 10 horns symbolize 10 countries that form a sort of coalition with each other; like the European Union...which is more then 10
6. The 10 horns symbolize strength
Now, I have some thoughts on all of these, but I wanted to post some verses for the reader to look at regarding these horns and hopefully we can have an amicable discussion.
the 10 horns are obviously men who become 10 kings. They appear BEFORE the AC and all 10 are different from him. They also rise "out of" this kingdom. To me, that implies the Kingdom exists before they become Kings and before the AC comes into play. That would imply the 4th Kingdom comes first, eventually 10 men rise up out of this kingdom and sometime afterwards the AC appears.
So when these 10 men become kings in this 4th kingdom, they are not actually 10 rulers in the kingdom but receive power as a ruler when the beast appears. It makes me think back to Daniel. Some of the rulers of Babylon were not the actual King, but served in a role that they were called King, they had power of the provinces and could issue directives. Though, they were Princes, they still were not the actual King. The 1 hour with the beast seems to be not an actual hour, but implies the time when the beast comes, they will be here for that duration.
It is also interesting, the power and authority they receive within this kingdom (not as rulers, but power as a King has authority to act), they use it to life up this kingdom. It almost sounds as if they use some position or the masses around them to build up a kingdom that is Nationalistic.
Obviously, the crowns were originally on the heads. Now that the heads are all slain, though one came back to life, the authority moved from 1 King and 1 Kingdom (like Nebuchadnezzar over Babylon) to 10 men with great authority in 1 Kingdom. This future depiction is changed from a past event noted in Rev 12:3.
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."
Other interesting point, the 10 horns are not on the beast/dragon itself, but on one of its heads. If the head is a Kingdom/Nation, and each is ruled by a leader...then does a nation with 1 ruler somehow abdicate rule and 10 others that were "not given the kingdom" or perhaps were not elected into power, receive power? If so, what causes a leader to be overthrown by 10 unelected people? Is this a Nation undergoing such chaos and political problems?
In Daniel 8:22, the 4 horns that replace Alexander the Great (the horn that was broken off) are men which rule, but each horn rules a separate Kingdom out of the original kingdom. This implied the Grecian empire, not the last Kingdom though the Last Kingdom does have the body like unto a Leopard. How was the body of people under Grecian rule set up but split from one Kingdom into 4 and if so, does 1 nation today split into 10 tomorrow?
I am not sure the 10 horns could hate themselves or their Kingdom if they are giving their power and authority to it. The harlot must be separate from the 10 kings and their Kingdom. Also notice, its the 10 kings that burn the whore...the AC isnt in the picture yet because he enters after they come into power and he removes 3 as the 11th horn. This would show a timeline that the Kingdom comes first, followed by 10 Kings that rise out of this Kingdoms birth, followed by the destruction of the whore and then the AC comes into power.
So who is the whore that is burned? Is it the a system, a city, the false Church?
What about the horns? Why do they come into some type of authority if there existed previous to them authority already? What events transpire that causes all these great changes?
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Post by whatif on Jul 16, 2020 8:19:39 GMT -6
Good morning to you, venge! Just a theory I am considering... Could the ten horns that hate Mystery Babylon be ten US states that hate America and desire to dismantle its government?
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Post by mike on Jul 16, 2020 9:24:42 GMT -6
venge I was recently reviewing (I wont call it in depth study but a fair review of) Daniel and noted that: For example Belshazar was 'regent' over the land but was not king. His father (Nabonidus - Nebuchadnezzars son) was king but not present in the area at the time of Daniel 5. Also in Daniel 6 we see king Darius set Daniel to what we may consider Prime Minister today
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 17, 2020 14:46:13 GMT -6
The number 10 is used in the end times, but its signifying that the Fourth Beasts end time Kingdom finally rejuvenates after nigh 2000 years of being partly strong and partly broken, or Iron and Clay mix. The very end times equals the 10 toes finally coming together as a kingdom. The number 10 is only significant in that it represents completeness, because as a kingdom that loses power {Fourth Beast} and remains a collective bunch of ununified kings/kingdoms over a 2000 some odd year period, whether that be since 70 AD or 400 AD or any point in between. God uses the number 10 because it stands for basically, all Europe, He couldn't name the number of kingdoms specifically because its going to change over time, in Romes time it was one, 1500 years ago it might have been 3, now there are 26 or 27 nations making up the E.U. according whether you count England or not. So, 10 was used as the complete number. So, 10, IMHO, actually represents all the nations in the European Union whenever this Anti-Christ comes to power. Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the SEED OF MEN: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. Yes, these Kingdoms have been around forever. Daniel 2:43 speaks about the fragmented kingdoms, and that they will try to MINGLE THEMSELVES WITH THE SEED OF MEN. I see this as them trying to reconstitute the Fourth Beast Kingdom via intermarriage/Royal Marriage, BUT.......they will not cleave to one another or in other words, it will not work. We also know Charlemagne tried to reunite the kingdoms in the 8th century, Napoleon Bonaparte tried to reunite the kingdom in the 18th century and off course Hitler tried to reunite the 1000 year Reich as he called it, but of course God stated it would not happen until the very end times, try as they like, they will not cleave to one another. My understanding is they would represent Nations, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany etc. etc. The Rev. 12 CROWNS designate that Beast as Satan. The Rev. 13 CROWNS designate him as the 11th or a Little Horn, in Daniel 7 10 Horns Arise and then ANOTHER, so all those Kingdoms (10 = ALL the Nations IMHO) arise first, of course, then the Little Horn (MAN/Power) arises among then, or is born in one of these E.U. Nations. (Greece according to Daniel 8). In Rev. 17 the lack of CROWNS tell us the Scarlet Colored Beast is a Demonic Entity, who arises out of the Bottomless Pit that God locked him up in after the fall of Rome, or after Israel were dispersed in 70 AD, thereby there could be no Beast over them from that point until at least 1948 when Israel had life breathed back into them by God who saw them as Dead Men'd Bones for nigh 2000 years. The Scarlet Colored Beast, IMHO, is Apollyon. This can mean that 1/3 of them try to get out of their agreements with this man once they learn how devious he is, or it could be speaking about how thee Trumps destroy 1/3 of the world, but I think its the former. This Little Horn is born in Greece (Dan. 8) but comes to power in the E.U. (Dan. 7), and he will be an Assyrian Turk (Isaiah 10). The Harlot or Rev. 17 represents ALL FALSE RELIGION of all time, Babylon = the Governments of the Whole World who follow Satan or the CONFUSED who try to defeat God. The Harlot [False Religions] RIDES the [Gov.] Beasts. They are co-mingled, Jupiter = Rome, Zeus = Greece, Babylon was noted for its false religion, as was Egypt, but in the very end, the Beast himself seeks to be worshiped as God, so they must kill off Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and all religions, only Beast Worship will be permitted, Rev 13 tells us this, the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} places an IMAGE of the Beast in the temple and demands that all men worship the Beast or else !! This is why the Kings HATE the Harlot and burn her up, but cry and wail when Babylon {world} is being judged/burned in Rev. 18. |
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Post by venge on Jul 18, 2020 6:05:28 GMT -6
Good morning to you, venge! Just a theory I am considering... Could the ten horns that hate Mystery Babylon be ten US states that hate America and desire to dismantle its government? Well, because we don't know for sure, I suppose all options are on the table. But 10 US states are not horns themselves. If the 10 horns were Senators of 10 states, that would be more plausible. But then, they receive power "as Kings" during the last kingdoms rule. Senators do not have kingly power. They are elected officials and 1 of many. Also, the 10 states within the US don't dismantle itself. The 10 horns of this last kingdom destroy the whore and normally, a whore was seen as a nation or peoples that fell apart from God. They went unto other Gods (Tv, Sports, Music, other forms of entertainment etc and put that on a pedestal in their life over Him). |
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Post by venge on Jul 18, 2020 6:09:06 GMT -6
venge I was recently reviewing (I wont call it in depth study but a fair review of) Daniel and noted that: For example Belshazar was 'regent' over the land but was not king. His father (Nabonidus - Nebuchadnezzars son) was king but not present in the area at the time of Daniel 5. Also in Daniel 6 we see king Darius set Daniel to what we may consider Prime Minister today Yes, but those set in charge were still referred to as King in the translations because they were set in charge though they were not the actual King. That is why in Daniel 7:1, it says |
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Post by venge on Jul 18, 2020 6:35:36 GMT -6
The number 10 is used in the end times, but its signifying that the Fourth Beasts end time Kingdom finally rejuvenates after nigh 2000 years of being partly strong and partly broken, or Iron and Clay mix. The very end times equals the 10 toes finally coming together as a kingdom. The number 10 is only significant in that it represents completeness, because as a kingdom that loses power {Fourth Beast} and remains a collective bunch of ununified kings/kingdoms over a 2000 some odd year period, whether that be since 70 AD or 400 AD or any point in between. God uses the number 10 because it stands for basically, all Europe, He couldn't name the number of kingdoms specifically because its going to change over time, in Romes time it was one, 1500 years ago it might have been 3, now there are 26 or 27 nations making up the E.U. according whether you count England or not. So, 10 was used as the complete number. So, 10, IMHO, actually represents all the nations in the European Union whenever this Anti-Christ comes to power. Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the SEED OF MEN: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. Yes, these Kingdoms have been around forever. Daniel 2:43 speaks about the fragmented kingdoms, and that they will try to MINGLE THEMSELVES WITH THE SEED OF MEN. I see this as them trying to reconstitute the Fourth Beast Kingdom via intermarriage/Royal Marriage, BUT.......they will not cleave to one another or in other words, it will not work. We also know Charlemagne tried to reunite the kingdoms in the 8th century, Napoleon Bonaparte tried to reunite the kingdom in the 18th century and off course Hitler tried to reunite the 1000 year Reich as he called it, but of course God stated it would not happen until the very end times, try as they like, they will not cleave to one another. My understanding is they would represent Nations, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany etc. etc. The Rev. 12 CROWNS designate that Beast as Satan. The Rev. 13 CROWNS designate him as the 11th or a Little Horn, in Daniel 7 10 Horns Arise and then ANOTHER, so all those Kingdoms (10 = ALL the Nations IMHO) arise first, of course, then the Little Horn (MAN/Power) arises among then, or is born in one of these E.U. Nations. (Greece according to Daniel 8). In Rev. 17 the lack of CROWNS tell us the Scarlet Colored Beast is a Demonic Entity, who arises out of the Bottomless Pit that God locked him up in after the fall of Rome, or after Israel were dispersed in 70 AD, thereby there could be no Beast over them from that point until at least 1948 when Israel had life breathed back into them by God who saw them as Dead Men'd Bones for nigh 2000 years. The Scarlet Colored Beast, IMHO, is Apollyon. This can mean that 1/3 of them try to get out of their agreements with this man once they learn how devious he is, or it could be speaking about how thee Trumps destroy 1/3 of the world, but I think its the former. This Little Horn is born in Greece (Dan. 8) but comes to power in the E.U. (Dan. 7), and he will be an Assyrian Turk (Isaiah 10). The Harlot or Rev. 17 represents ALL FALSE RELIGION of all time, Babylon = the Governments of the Whole World who follow Satan or the CONFUSED who try to defeat God. The Harlot [False Religions] RIDES the [Gov.] Beasts. They are co-mingled, Jupiter = Rome, Zeus = Greece, Babylon was noted for its false religion, as was Egypt, but in the very end, the Beast himself seeks to be worshiped as God, so they must kill off Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and all religions, only Beast Worship will be permitted, Rev 13 tells us this, the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} places an IMAGE of the Beast in the temple and demands that all men worship the Beast or else !! This is why the Kings HATE the Harlot and burn her up, but cry and wail when Babylon {world} is being judged/burned in Rev. 18. In reply, Ptolemy was part of Alexander's 4 heads of the 3rd kingdom. They were the last to die out in 30 BC. That would put us at abt. 2,050 years. But still, the iron and clay mix wasn't born right after the last part died and in no such way is it described that it doesn't still continue today. What do you have to back up this claim? You made a claim that God uses 10 for Europe, I'd assume you have scripture to support God's word on this? Why those? Why do the 10 horns have to represent any nations today? They rise up from the 4th Kingdom, its not said they rise up from 10 kingdoms but 1. That is incorrect. I will post scripture. Rev 12, The crowns don't designate the dragon as Satan. But the dragon is Satan. And Satan is not the 11th horn, who is a man. Rev 13 The crowns on the horns symbolize their authority. The authroity is no longer on the head which was the Nation and its sole ruler, its on many in authority of 1 kingdom instead of 1 in authority of a kingdom. If you are going to use the horns as nation, then what about the heads that still exist that no longer wear crowns of authority but exist still and hold the name blasphemous. They were originally the ruling kingdoms. If any nation was to be guessed by this, it would have to defer to the original heads and not 10 men as horns making 10 new nations. Horns always come from men and are never given to Satan. If the scripture said: A great murderous (red) enemy of God (serpent/dragon) which had 7 kingdoms (heads) and 10 men in authority (horns) and 7 bands of authority (crowns) on the 7 kingdoms...It is not implying Satan and the 10 are the same... |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 19, 2020 10:43:40 GMT -6
Ptolemy was part of Alexander's 4 heads of the 3rd kingdom. They were the last to die out in 30 BC. That would put us at abt. 2,050 years. But still, the iron and clay mix wasn't born right after the last part died and in no such way is it described that it doesn't still continue today. What do you have to back up this claim? You made a claim that God uses 10 for Europe, I'd assume you have scripture to support God's word on this? Why those? Why do the 10 horns have to represent any nations today? They rise up from the 4th Kingdom, its not said they rise up from 10 kingdoms but 1. That is incorrect. I will post scripture. Rev 12, The crowns don't designate the dragon as Satan. But the dragon is Satan. And Satan is not the 11th horn, who is a man. Rev 13 The crowns on the horns symbolize their authority. The authroity is no longer on the head which was the Nation and its sole ruler, its on many in authority of 1 kingdom instead of 1 in authority of a kingdom. If you are going to use the horns as nation, then what about the heads that still exist that no longer wear crowns of authority but exist still and hold the name blasphemous. They were originally the ruling kingdoms. If any nation was to be guessed by this, it would have to defer to the original heads and not 10 men as horns making 10 new nations. Horns always come from men and are never given to Satan. If the scripture said: A great murderous (red) enemy of God (serpent/dragon) which had 7 kingdoms (heads) and 10 men in authority (horns) and 7 bands of authority (crowns) on the 7 kingdoms...It is not implying Satan and the 10 are the same... The Bible is a book of both history and prophecy, the numbers given therein may be either literal or symbolic. The number Ten [10]: Ten is a number denoting fullness, entirety, the sum of all that exists of something. Where the numbers seven and ten are used together, the seven represents that which is higher or superior and ten represents something of a subordinate nature. The Ten Plagues poured upon Egypt fully expressed God’s judgments upon Egypt—all that were needed to humiliate fully the false gods of Egypt and to break the hold of Egypt upon God’s people Israel. The “Ten Commandments” formed the basic laws of the Law covenant, the approximately 600 other laws merely enlarging on these, elucidating them, and explaining their application. (Ex 20:3-17; 34:28) Jesus used the number ten in several of his illustrations to denote entirety or the full number of something.—Mt 25:1; Lu 15:8; 19:13, 16, 17. One of the beasts of Daniel’s vision and certain beasts described in Revelation had ten horns. These evidently represented all the powers, or “kings,” of earth making up the beastly arrangement. (Dan. 7:7, 20, 24; Rev. 12:3; 13:1;17:3, 7, 12) The fullness of the test or period of test that God determines for his servants or allows them to undergo is expressed at Revelation 2:10: “Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test, and that you may have tribulation ten days.” NOTE: The Bible is a book of both history and prophecy, the numbers given therein may be either literal or symbolic. The context usually reveals in which sense a number is used. [Bible usage of numbers should not be confused with numerology, in which occult mysticism is attached to figures, their combinations, and numerical totals.] Numerology apparently had its origin in ancient Babylon and, along with other forms of divination, comes under divine condemnation.—De 18:10-12 God uses the 7 Spirits to signify He is everywhere, He uses the 7 eyes to signify He sees everything. In my opinion, the 144,000 are also a misconstrued understanding. The Jews who are fleeing Judea, to Petra, are shown in my honest opinion, as 12 x 12 x 1000, which means fullness via the number 12, and completeness via 1000 which is just used as a 10 with a larger emphasis. When God says a one day is as a 1000 years it actually means eternal, because God is eternal, there is no time with God, He lives in all time at once, hence 1000 equals eternity or all time. Yes, it was a Mortal Wound that killed the Beast, or submerged it for a time, but the Iron & Clay more or less represents the 10 Kingdoms of the Roman era, it was Rome then 10 came up out of its head means Rome turned into a bunch of different factions over time which created the Mortal Wound in that there was no "Central Gov." that dominated the Mediterranean Sea Region, and since there was no Israel, they couldn't be Beasted over anyway. The Iron and Clay is after Rome, not Greece however. And, the same peoples Europeans, live in that same region, so they are shown via the number 10, in my opinion, to be Europe in full, they can not come back together try as they might until the Anti-Christ comes along and the Church is Raptured. It's of course not just those, but I didn't feel like writing down all 26, lets just say the number 10 represents all the nations in the European Union. Daniel 2:43 tells us they can't cleave to one another, it couldn't get any plainer than that IMHO. The crowns designate who is being spoken of in each chapter. Satan or the Dragon is SHOWN as a Beast Power over the Mediterranean Sea Region, in Luke 4 we see that he is shown as having rule over every kingdom on earth, hr says that has been given me and I do as I will, so in this instance, the 7 Heads and 10 Horns is a part of his Beast Authority, he dominates them via his orders, the Crowns show he was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and he will be over the coming Anti-Christ. The Rev. 13 Anti-Christ can't have Crowns on the 7 Heads, he was mot around for those other Kingdoms, he is a mere mortal, we live and die, thus he is shown with Crowns on the 10 Horns/Kings, because he is over the E.U. which came up in the Fourth Beasts territory. (Roman Empire). The Rev. 17 Scarlet Colored Beast has NO CROWNS. His kingdom is in the bottomless pit, not on earth, he was appointed to be over Mediterranean Sea Region, but Satan is still over him, hence no crowns. The Last Beast Head is the Anti-Christ, Satan is OVER HIM (Rev. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? ) The 7 Heads all had Crowns on them, signifying Satan is running the show. The Anti-Christ is the human King under him and he has a sub-set of European Kings under him, in most cases wee call them Presidents or Chancellors nowadays, but it means the same thing in most cases the Queen of England is mostly a figurehead now. The horns represent the powers to be, and in mot cases those people are elected nowadays, I think this is why the verse above states they worship the Beast, I mean, we elect all kinds nowadays, a good line here or there and a news media who is behind you can go a long way, its propaganda 101. All these nations are blaspheming God when they prohibit Him being taught in schools, when they teach humanism, when they teach we derived from monkey's etc. etc. That is the essence of blaspheme, especially when these nations demand that the Beast be worshiped as God. Its 10 Powers, not men per se, but 10 Kingdoms/Kings but Kingdoms is more apt in this instance, because the power is derived from the will of the people/Kingdom. Its implying what Satan is, one who enslaves men via lust, greed, hate, violence, ignorance etc. I mean, when you can get the whole world to try and defeat their Creator you have hoodwinked the whole lot of them and thus enslaved them via lies. |
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Post by venge on Jul 19, 2020 21:00:38 GMT -6
Ptolemy was part of Alexander's 4 heads of the 3rd kingdom. They were the last to die out in 30 BC. That would put us at abt. 2,050 years. But still, the iron and clay mix wasn't born right after the last part died and in no such way is it described that it doesn't still continue today. What do you have to back up this claim? You made a claim that God uses 10 for Europe, I'd assume you have scripture to support God's word on this? Why those? Why do the 10 horns have to represent any nations today? They rise up from the 4th Kingdom, its not said they rise up from 10 kingdoms but 1. That is incorrect. I will post scripture. Rev 12, The crowns don't designate the dragon as Satan. But the dragon is Satan. And Satan is not the 11th horn, who is a man. Rev 13 The crowns on the horns symbolize their authority. The authroity is no longer on the head which was the Nation and its sole ruler, its on many in authority of 1 kingdom instead of 1 in authority of a kingdom. If you are going to use the horns as nation, then what about the heads that still exist that no longer wear crowns of authority but exist still and hold the name blasphemous. They were originally the ruling kingdoms. If any nation was to be guessed by this, it would have to defer to the original heads and not 10 men as horns making 10 new nations. Horns always come from men and are never given to Satan. If the scripture said: A great murderous (red) enemy of God (serpent/dragon) which had 7 kingdoms (heads) and 10 men in authority (horns) and 7 bands of authority (crowns) on the 7 kingdoms...It is not implying Satan and the 10 are the same... The Bible is a book of both history and prophecy, the numbers given therein may be either literal or symbolic. The number Ten [10]: Ten is a number denoting fullness, entirety, the sum of all that exists of something. Where the numbers seven and ten are used together, the seven represents that which is higher or superior and ten represents something of a subordinate nature. The Ten Plagues poured upon Egypt fully expressed God’s judgments upon Egypt—all that were needed to humiliate fully the false gods of Egypt and to break the hold of Egypt upon God’s people Israel. The “Ten Commandments” formed the basic laws of the Law covenant, the approximately 600 other laws merely enlarging on these, elucidating them, and explaining their application. (Ex 20:3-17; 34:28) Jesus used the number ten in several of his illustrations to denote entirety or the full number of something.—Mt 25:1; Lu 15:8; 19:13, 16, 17. One of the beasts of Daniel’s vision and certain beasts described in Revelation had ten horns. These evidently represented all the powers, or “kings,” of earth making up the beastly arrangement. (Dan. 7:7, 20, 24; Rev. 12:3; 13:1;17:3, 7, 12) The fullness of the test or period of test that God determines for his servants or allows them to undergo is expressed at Revelation 2:10: “Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test, and that you may have tribulation ten days.” NOTE: The Bible is a book of both history and prophecy, the numbers given therein may be either literal or symbolic. The context usually reveals in which sense a number is used. [Bible usage of numbers should not be confused with numerology, in which occult mysticism is attached to figures, their combinations, and numerical totals.] Numerology apparently had its origin in ancient Babylon and, along with other forms of divination, comes under divine condemnation.—De 18:10-12 God uses the 7 Spirits to signify He is everywhere, He uses the 7 eyes to signify He sees everything. In my opinion, the 144,000 are also a misconstrued understanding. The Jews who are fleeing Judea, to Petra, are shown in my honest opinion, as 12 x 12 x 1000, which means fullness via the number 12, and completeness via 1000 which is just used as a 10 with a larger emphasis. When God says a one day is as a 1000 years it actually means eternal, because God is eternal, there is no time with God, He lives in all time at once, hence 1000 equals eternity or all time. Yes, it was a Mortal Wound that killed the Beast, or submerged it for a time, but the Iron & Clay more or less represents the 10 Kingdoms of the Roman era, it was Rome then 10 came up out of its head means Rome turned into a bunch of different factions over time which created the Mortal Wound in that there was no "Central Gov." that dominated the Mediterranean Sea Region, and since there was no Israel, they couldn't be Beasted over anyway. The Iron and Clay is after Rome, not Greece however. And, the same peoples Europeans, live in that same region, so they are shown via the number 10, in my opinion, to be Europe in full, they can not come back together try as they might until the Anti-Christ comes along and the Church is Raptured. It's of course not just those, but I didn't feel like writing down all 26, lets just say the number 10 represents all the nations in the European Union. Daniel 2:43 tells us they can't cleave to one another, it couldn't get any plainer than that IMHO. The crowns designate who is being spoken of in each chapter. Satan or the Dragon is SHOWN as a Beast Power over the Mediterranean Sea Region, in Luke 4 we see that he is shown as having rule over every kingdom on earth, hr says that has been given me and I do as I will, so in this instance, the 7 Heads and 10 Horns is a part of his Beast Authority, he dominates them via his orders, the Crowns show he was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and he will be over the coming Anti-Christ. The Rev. 13 Anti-Christ can't have Crowns on the 7 Heads, he was mot around for those other Kingdoms, he is a mere mortal, we live and die, thus he is shown with Crowns on the 10 Horns/Kings, because he is over the E.U. which came up in the Fourth Beasts territory. (Roman Empire). The Rev. 17 Scarlet Colored Beast has NO CROWNS. His kingdom is in the bottomless pit, not on earth, he was appointed to be over Mediterranean Sea Region, but Satan is still over him, hence no crowns. The Last Beast Head is the Anti-Christ, Satan is OVER HIM (Rev. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? ) The 7 Heads all had Crowns on them, signifying Satan is running the show. The Anti-Christ is the human King under him and he has a sub-set of European Kings under him, in most cases wee call them Presidents or Chancellors nowadays, but it means the same thing in most cases the Queen of England is mostly a figurehead now. The horns represent the powers to be, and in mot cases those people are elected nowadays, I think this is why the verse above states they worship the Beast, I mean, we elect all kinds nowadays, a good line here or there and a news media who is behind you can go a long way, its propaganda 101. All these nations are blaspheming God when they prohibit Him being taught in schools, when they teach humanism, when they teach we derived from monkey's etc. etc. That is the essence of blaspheme, especially when these nations demand that the Beast be worshiped as God. Its 10 Powers, not men per se, but 10 Kingdoms/Kings but Kingdoms is more apt in this instance, because the power is derived from the will of the people/Kingdom. Its implying what Satan is, one who enslaves men via lust, greed, hate, violence, ignorance etc. I mean, when you can get the whole world to try and defeat their Creator you have hoodwinked the whole lot of them and thus enslaved them via lies. You explained the reasoning for the number 10 in various scripture but you did not answer the question. You made a claim that God uses 10 for Europe. That is 100% unscriptural. It is 100% your opinion. Then you said It does? John was told one head "is". That was Rome during his life. 5 were fallen, which makes the one that "is" (Rome) the 6th head. Not the 8th head. Therefore, it cannot be Roman. Rome may have come after Grecian, but so did other empires. 2 Heads still existed after Grecian before the 8th head returns. Neither of which is the last kingdom. That is an unscriptural opinion. And that is fine if you believe that. But I prefer to have scripture tell me details and not guess at things that exist in our timeline as it may not be that in another timeline (example - 30, 70 or 100 years from now). Im sure when WW2 happeend, people were quite sure they were at the end of days. Yet, that wasnt the case... He is not shown as a beast power over the meditereanean. Satan is shown as the price of the power of the air. That encompasses the world. The Dragon itself is never shown on a specific area of the world, It is a guestimate to place him in the meditereanean because of the areas significance to ancient Israel. It could be anywhere, we don't know. The crowns don't show geographic locations. The heads of the beast are used in Daniel to show who ruled, and we know by them and the angels description that they are Babylon, Media-Persian and Grecian. Rome is never said to be the 4th and is guessed at by those that think it is Papal rulership. As said earlier, Rome was identified as the 6th head out of 8 heads. Because it does not qualify as the 8th, it is not the last kingdom. It was the 6th kingdom. The fact scripture shows it was the one that "is' during John's life and scripture says that another would come after it as well as the resurrected head would be an 8th head shows this to be true. |
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Post by whatif on Jul 19, 2020 23:33:38 GMT -6
Good morning to you, venge! Just a theory I am considering... Could the ten horns that hate Mystery Babylon be ten US states that hate America and desire to dismantle its government? Well, because we don't know for sure, I suppose all options are on the table. But 10 US states are not horns themselves. If the 10 horns were Senators of 10 states, that would be more plausible. But then, they receive power "as Kings" during the last kingdoms rule. Senators do not have kingly power. They are elected officials and 1 of many. Also, the 10 states within the US don't dismantle itself. The 10 horns of this last kingdom destroy the whore and normally, a whore was seen as a nation or peoples that fell apart from God. They went unto other Gods (Tv, Sports, Music, other forms of entertainment etc and put that on a pedestal in their life over Him). Hi, venge! I suppose I’m thinking more in the line of governors of states, with kings being a generic term for the leader of a government that may or may not literally be a royal person and may be an elected individual. I’m thinking of the US as possibly the Mystery Babylon (a nation that knew God at its founding but has turned to embrace sin), with the possibility also of civil war as God’s judgment, dividing the nation into two or more entities, perhaps one consisting of ten governors who will give their allegiance to a man of lawlessness who rises to popularity and power in opposition to the lawful, constitutional authority. It’s an unusual theory, but one I can’t shake out of my head as I contemplate current events here in the US. With all the calls to dismantle our government from even some of our elected officials, it makes me wonder if the nation will fall at the hands of its own members who hate it. |
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Post by venge on Jul 20, 2020 6:53:39 GMT -6
Well, because we don't know for sure, I suppose all options are on the table. But 10 US states are not horns themselves. If the 10 horns were Senators of 10 states, that would be more plausible. But then, they receive power "as Kings" during the last kingdoms rule. Senators do not have kingly power. They are elected officials and 1 of many. Also, the 10 states within the US don't dismantle itself. The 10 horns of this last kingdom destroy the whore and normally, a whore was seen as a nation or peoples that fell apart from God. They went unto other Gods (Tv, Sports, Music, other forms of entertainment etc and put that on a pedestal in their life over Him). Hi, venge! I suppose I’m thinking more in the line of governors of states, with kings being a generic term for the leader of a government that may or may not literally be a royal person and may be an elected individual. I’m thinking of the US as possibly the Mystery Babylon (a nation that knew God at its founding but has turned to embrace sin), with the possibility also of civil war as God’s judgment, dividing the nation into two or more entities, perhaps one consisting of ten governors who will give their allegiance to a man of lawlessness who rises to popularity and power in opposition to the lawful, constitutional authority. It’s an unusual theory, but one I can’t shake out of my head as I contemplate current events here in the US. With all the calls to dismantle our government from even some of our elected officials, it makes me wonder if the nation will fall at the hands of its own members who hate it. Governors/Mayors of states/municipalities...interesting idea. I suppose that is possible. This is the problem with Mystery Babylon. If you are from the USA, people who live there are very open to saying its the USA. If you live in China, Chinese Christians say its their country and leadership. If you live in Botswana, Africa...they will say its very likely the warring tribes... In each scenario, where you live you vilify that country as the enemy of the people because you see the sin up close. But sin and whoredom exists everywhere. Yes, the USA has sent more missionaries then any other country. But does the USA get credit for that, does the Church or does the missionary by obeying God's call? Remember, it is said in the Bible that Noah and others can only save themselves. Not their children, their loved ones, their neighbor...if they had a church...the entire church. But themselves. For me, when I think of whoredom, it is more then a nation...its the people. Now with people, we have people that do and people that dont. Moses and his people lived in a land that whored itself. Yet they were saved while in it. I think Christians will be saved while in it by "fleeing it". I used to think of Babylon as a physical place. But sin and whoredom is too wide spread for it to be. So how is it destroyed if its everywhere? This is why I tend to think it may be a system that we all use that needs to come down. Its elevated that we all use it. Were taught it in school as a way of life instead of God's way. We approach it casually instead of cautionsly. We buy what we want when we want it with no thought in mind. Buying makes people feel good and this is such devastation and causes confusion. What happens when we cant go buy stuff? People get angry...yet that is exactly what will happen when its destroyed. They cry and get angry. Really? Cry because they cant buy stuff? If you look at the list of things described, they arnt really things we "need" to survive. These are things we enjoy to have but don't need. And one of them, "souls of men," is despicable that people cry over it. If Babylon is the USA, how can it be the Beast of the sea and the whore at the same time? It hates itself? I don't think that is how its read. EDIT: The whore (Mystery Babylon) is friendly with the Kings of the earth. Which possibly implies once faithful, is faithful, never was faithful people which are ok with the sins of other nations and mixing with them even though they know what they do is wrong and in doing so they invite their customs and wickedness to infiltrate their own or the Church. The horns hate the whore and destroy her. They don't hate themselves or the beast which gives them power for 1 hr with them. The whore must be a separate thing. The curious thing is why do they hate it so much to destroy it? What has it done to them and how does it effect Christians that they are then killed? Does that make the horns liberals or conservatives? It doesn't have to be our politics, it could be another nations but all have some type of those 2 parties. If the horns are conservatives, for me it would explain them backing a false prophet. On the other hand, if they were liberal, it explains why the one they elect speaks words against the most High. So its perplexing. |
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Post by whatif on Jul 20, 2020 7:42:11 GMT -6
Good morning, venge! So many interesting facets to the question of the beast, the seven heads and ten horns, the prostitute... It will be interesting to watch as events unfold, to see how the prophecies come to pass.
I also frequently reflect on the imagery of Europa, the woman of mythology that is the symbol of Europe, displayed as a woman riding a bull. My theory of the ten US governors could in similar fashion be applied to ten European nations that despise the union and break away to follow the leadership of the antiChrist.
Whatever the case, you raise some interesting questions for us all to ponder! Thank you!
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 20, 2020 8:08:35 GMT -6
You explained the reasoning for the number 10 in various scripture but you did not answer the question. You made a claim that God uses 10 for Europe. That is 100% unscriptural. It is 100% your opinion. Then you said It does? John was told one head "is". That was Rome during his life. 5 were fallen, which makes the one that "is" (Rome) the 6th head. Not the 8th head. Therefore, it cannot be Roman. Rome may have come after Grecian, but so did other empires. 2 Heads still existed after Grecian before the 8th head returns. Neither of which is the last kingdom. That is an unscriptural opinion. And that is fine if you believe that. But I prefer to have scripture tell me details and not guess at things that exist in our timeline as it may not be that in another timeline (example - 30, 70 or 100 years from now). Im sure when WW2 happeend, people were quite sure they were at the end of days. Yet, that wasnt the case... He is not shown as a beast power over the meditereanean. Satan is shown as the price of the power of the air. That encompasses the world. The Dragon itself is never shown on a specific area of the world, It is a guestimate to place him in the meditereanean because of the areas significance to ancient Israel. It could be anywhere, we don't know. The crowns don't show geographic locations. The heads of the beast are used in Daniel to show who ruled, and we know by them and the angels description that they are Babylon, Media-Persian and Grecian. Rome is never said to be the 4th and is guessed at by those that think it is Papal rulership. As said earlier, Rome was identified as the 6th head out of 8 heads. Because it does not qualify as the 8th, it is not the last kingdom. It was the 6th kingdom. The fact scripture shows it was the one that "is' during John's life and scripture says that another would come after it as well as the resurrected head would be an 8th head shows this to be true. It's 100 percent scriptural because the Iron and Clay represent the BROKEN KINGDOM, Rome was the Legs of Iron, the two legs, IMHO, have no relevance, just like the two arms have no relevance, its just overreaching Analysis in my opinion. The broken kingdoms are the point of emphasis, in Daniel 7 it tells us these Kingdoms (10) will come up out of the Beasts head, that tells us that the Roman Kingdom turned into a bunch of fractured nations, as noted by the Iron and Clay, and the phrase they shall not cleave together. If you chose to believe its 10 Nations exactly, then that is your belief, but its not mine because down through the ages there have been varied number of kingdoms in the region, so IMHO, the number 10 standing for all Europe makes more sense, especially seeing as God has symmetry in the way He uses numbers. The number 7 is used in the book of Revelation to show God has 7 eyes and 7 spirits, but it just means God sees all and is everywhere. There is no 8th Head, that is a misunderstanding on many peoples part, the Beast ALWAYS has 7 Heads and 10 Horns. The 8th king is a Demon, and hes of ALL SEVEN which should tell you hes a Demon, men don't live that long. So, you had 5 that had fallen, (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece) and you had ONE THAT WAS (Rome) even though they were no longer a Beast over Israel in 95 AD they remained a Beast over the Mediterranean Sea Region, so whilst I believe they ceased being a Beast over Israel in 70 AD, they did not fall until much later, and this was about a king at the helm who FELL after all. The Church can not be overcome by the gates of hell, we therefore delivered the Mortal Wound to the Beast, that is why the Iron and Clay remains fractured for 1600-1800 years. And you are correct, its not the Roman Empire, its the Little Horn who comes out of the 10 Kings (Europe's fractured Kingdoms IN FULL) and creates an End Time Kingdom all his own, he is the Beast himself, Daniel 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 both tell us this, THE BEAST'S BODY is destroyed and cast into hell. There is no Beast after this 7th Head dies, Jesus rules for 1000 years, Jesus will be the New Beginning. The 8th King is kind of like the riddle about the honey in the lion, its meant to get one to think. We know the 8th king is of the 7, so he has to be a Demon, men do not come back to life, we know he been locked in the bottomless pit since the time of Rome, we also know Satan places Demons over regions, see Ephesians 6:12, we wrestle not with flesh and blood but against principalities in HIGH PLACES.......This was nothing more than a Demon placed over that region (Mediterranean Sea Region) and given the task to take Israel out, thus Israel called him the Destroyer, he is Apollyon, hes the King of the bottomless pit, not an 8th Head on this earth. Thus he was of the 7............but is an 8th. He was of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia (I think he was the prince of Persia that resisted Micheal for 21 days), Greece and Rome, he was then locked in the bottomless pit by God thus he.........WAS NOT........And he will be released at the first Woe and resume his mission as being a Beast over the Mediterranean Sea Region. Thus he WAS..........IS NOT.........YET IS. He is the Scarlet Colored Beast, just like Satan is the Red Dragon Beast. But he has no Kingdom on earth, however he is an 8th King, and he's of the 7. Nowhere does it say the 8th King is a part of the Beast Kingdoms as per the Heads in thee Mediterranean Sea Region, he's just a Demon over them, just like Satan is a Demon over the region, that is why there are 7 Heads, not 8. We could say the same about Satan, he was of the 7 and is a 9th king. As per the Roman Kingdom and the coming Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast Kingdom. We can match up what they will look like on a map via Daniel 11:40-43 and see that the European Union, conquering those nations spoken of in Daniel 11:40-43 would make the coming Anti-Christ Kingdom look just like the Roman Empire Kingdom on a map. All we have to do is Google the European Neighborhood Policy Map and compare it to the Roman Empire Map, they look identical to each other. Papa had a son. And some people call for the Rapture to happen on a certain day, understanding the signs alleviates these misconceptions however. Israel has to be Reborn as a nation, so WW2 should have never worried a real life dedicated Prophecy wonk, only those half stepping. The 10 kings being of Europe is very scriptural, they arise out of the Fourth Bests Head in the end times as 10 or as the full number of nations to which they were fractured into, however many that was/is at the time it comes to pass. And that would INCLUDE being over the Mediterranean Sea Region and over Israel of course. In Luke 4 Satan showed Jesus ALL THE KINGDOMS of the whole earth that were his to do as he so pleased with. Meaning hes over every kingdom in this world, meaning he BEASTS over the whole world, meaning the Mediterranean Sea Region would be a part of that rule. He is here, the bible is about Israel. The Dragon is shown as a Beast with 7 Heads.........AND.........10 Horns, with Crowns on the 7 Heads showing he is over the Region being spoken of in the story of Rev. 12. The Crowns show Satan is over every kingdom that was over the Region, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome and he will be over the coming Anti-Christ also. We are shown the four from Daniel's time on, we are not told of Egypt and Assyria. we are told of the Little Horn TO COME which is thus a 5th,so 5 + 2 = 7. And no, it's guessed by SOME who think its Papal Rome and are IMHO wrong, just like some say its an Islamic Anti-Christ and I likewise see them as wrong on the subject also. He will be a Gentile King hat arises out of Europe, he must be born an Greece and he must be an Assyrian Turk, but in the end he comes to power out of the E.U. power base. There is not an 8th head, only a Demon who is an 8th King, and Apllyon is called the king of the bottomless pit. The Mortal Wound is the BEAST HIMSELF, a Head was Wounded and there was NO BEAST for 1600-1800 years, then the Anti-Christ HEALS the Mortal Wound by Conquering Israel and the MANY [NATIONS in the region]. Don't over analyze that 8th head brother, you are an intelligent man, track that 8th King down. Look in Rev. 9 first, then we see him in Rev. 11 as the one that kills the Two-witnesses, and finally we see him in Rev. 17 as the Scarlet Colored Beast. God Bless. |
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Post by venge on Jul 22, 2020 9:01:28 GMT -6
You explained the reasoning for the number 10 in various scripture but you did not answer the question. You made a claim that God uses 10 for Europe. That is 100% unscriptural. It is 100% your opinion. Then you said It does? John was told one head "is". That was Rome during his life. 5 were fallen, which makes the one that "is" (Rome) the 6th head. Not the 8th head. Therefore, it cannot be Roman. Rome may have come after Grecian, but so did other empires. 2 Heads still existed after Grecian before the 8th head returns. Neither of which is the last kingdom. That is an unscriptural opinion. And that is fine if you believe that. But I prefer to have scripture tell me details and not guess at things that exist in our timeline as it may not be that in another timeline (example - 30, 70 or 100 years from now). Im sure when WW2 happeend, people were quite sure they were at the end of days. Yet, that wasnt the case... He is not shown as a beast power over the meditereanean. Satan is shown as the price of the power of the air. That encompasses the world. The Dragon itself is never shown on a specific area of the world, It is a guestimate to place him in the meditereanean because of the areas significance to ancient Israel. It could be anywhere, we don't know. The crowns don't show geographic locations. The heads of the beast are used in Daniel to show who ruled, and we know by them and the angels description that they are Babylon, Media-Persian and Grecian. Rome is never said to be the 4th and is guessed at by those that think it is Papal rulership. As said earlier, Rome was identified as the 6th head out of 8 heads. Because it does not qualify as the 8th, it is not the last kingdom. It was the 6th kingdom. The fact scripture shows it was the one that "is' during John's life and scripture says that another would come after it as well as the resurrected head would be an 8th head shows this to be true. It's 100 percent scriptural because the Iron and Clay represent the BROKEN KINGDOM, Rome was the Legs of Iron, the two legs, IMHO, have no relevance, just like the two arms have no relevance, its just overreaching Analysis in my opinion. The broken kingdoms are the point of emphasis, in Daniel 7 it tells us these Kingdoms (10) will come up out of the Beasts head, that tells us that the Roman Kingdom turned into a bunch of fractured nations, as noted by the Iron and Clay, and the phrase they shall not cleave together. If you chose to believe its 10 Nations exactly, then that is your belief, but its not mine because down through the ages there have been varied number of kingdoms in the region, so IMHO, the number 10 standing for all Europe makes more sense, especially seeing as God has symmetry in the way He uses numbers. The number 7 is used in the book of Revelation to show God has 7 eyes and 7 spirits, but it just means God sees all and is everywhere. There is no 8th Head, that is misunderstanding on many peoples part, the Beast ALWAYS has 7 Heads and 10 Horns. The 8th king is a Demon, and hes of ALL SEVEN which should tell you hes a Demon, men don't live that long. So, you had 5 that had fallen, (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece) and you had ONE THAT WAS (Rome) even though they were no longer a Beast over Israel in 95 AD they remained a Beast over the Mediterranean Sea Region, so whilst I believe they ceased being a Beast over Israel in 70 AD, they did not fall until much later, and this was about a king at the helm who FELL after all. The Church can not be overcome by the gates of hell, we therefore delivered the Mortal Wound to the Beast, that is why the Iron and Clay remains fractured for 1600-1800 years. And you are correct, its not the Roman Empire, its the Little Horn who comes out of the 10 Kings (Europe's fractured Kingdoms IN FULL) and creates an End Time Kingdom all his own, he is the Beast himself, Daniel 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 both tell us this, THE BEAST'S BODY is destroyed and cast into hell. There is no Beast after this 7th Head dies, Jesus rules for 1000 years, Jesus will be the New Beginning. The 8th King is kind of like the riddle about the bees in the lion, its meant to get one to think. We know the 8th king is of the 7, so he has to be a Demon, men do not come back to life, we knows he been locked in the bottomless pit since the time of Rome, we also know Satan places Demons over regions, see Ephesians 6:12, we wrestle not with flesh and blood but against principalities in HIGH PLACES.......This was nothing more than a Demon placed over that region (Mediterranean Sea Region) and given the task to take Israel out, thus Israel called him the Destroyer, he is Apollyon, hes the King of the bottomless pit, not a 8th Head on earth. Thus he was of the 7............but is an 8th. He was of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia (I think he was the prince of Persia that resisted Micheal for 21 days), Greece and Rome, hes was the locked in the bottomless pit by God thus he.........WAS NOT........And he will be released at the first Woe and resume his mission as being a Beast over the Mediterranean Sea Region. Thus he WAS..........IS NOT.........YET IS. He is the Scarlet Colored Beast, just like Satan is the Red Dragon Beast. But he has no Kingdom on earth, but he is an 8th King, and he's of the 7. Nowhere does it say the 8th King is a part of the Beat Kingdom, that is why there are 7 Heads, not 8. We could say the same about Satan, he was of the 7 and is a 9th king. As per the Roman Kingdom and the coming Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast Kingdom. We can match up what they will look like on a map via Daniel 11:40-43 and see that the European Union, conquering those nations spoken of in Daniel 11:40-43 would make the coming Anti-Christ Kingdom look just like the Roman Empire Kingdom on a map. All we have to do is Google the European Neighborhood Policy Map and compare it to the Roman Empire Map, they look identical to each other. Papa had a son. And some people call for the Rapture to happen on a certain day, understanding the signs alleviates these misconceptions however. Israel has to be Reborn as a nation, so WW2 should have never worried a real life dedicated Prophecy wonk, only those half stepping. The 10 kings being of Europe is very scriptural, they arise out of the Fourth Bests Head in the end times as 10 or as the full number of nations to which they were fractured into, however many that was/is at the time it comes to pass. And that would INCLUDE being over the Mediterranean Sea Region and over Israel of course. In Luke 4 Satan showed Jesus ALL THE KINGDOMS of the whole earth. He is here, the bible is about Israel. The Dragon is shown as a Beast with 7 Heads.........AND.........10 Horns, with Crowns on the 7 Heads showing he is over the Region being spoken of in the story of Rev. 12. The Crowns show Satan us over every kingdom that was over the Region, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome and he will be over the coming Anti-Christ also. We are shown the four from Daniel's time on, we are not told of Egypt and Assyria. we are told of the Little Horn TO COME which is thus a 5th,so 5 + 2 = 7. And no, it's guessed by SOME who think its Papal Rome and are IMHO wrong, just like some say its an Islamic Anti-Christ and I likewise see them as wrong on the subject also. He will be a Gentile King hat arises out of Europe, he must be born an Greece and he must be an Assyrian Turk, but in the end he comes to power out of the E.U. power base. There is not 8th head, only a Demon who is an 8th King, and Apllyon is called the king of the bottomless pit. The Mortal Wound is the BEAST HIMSELF, a Head was Wounded and there was NO BEAST for 1600-1800 years, then the Anti-Christ HEALS the Mortal Wound by Conquering Israel and the MANY [NATIONS in the region]. Don't over analyze that 8th head brother, you are an intelligent man, track that 8th King down. Look in Rev. 9 first, then we see him in Rev. 11 as the one that kills the Two-witnesses, and finally we see him in Rev. 17 as the Scarlet Colored Beast. God Bless. In reply you said (in quotes), Where is Europe defined as 10 Kings in scripture? It didnt exist. Where are 10 European countries (their locations) that exist today as defined as their geographical locations that existed during John's time as part of a beast? Using Europe as the 10 horns is an opinion and not scriptural. It was never said by God nor did God show in other terms that the last beast to be anywhere specifically. North, east, west or south of the Meditereanean. The markers describing the beast (like unto a leopard, feet of the bear..) possibly show that the 3 previous kingdoms (Babylon, Grecian and Persian) make up the 4th beast. Rome is absent. There are no identifiers in the last beast from Rome. Leopard=Grecian (Daniel 7:6) Bear=Media-Persian (Daniel 7:5) Lion=Babylon (Daniel 7:4) So why the physical makeup of these 3 past kingdoms and not Rome? Because of what was said in Daniel 7:23 Devour the whole earth is the mouth of the lion Trample it down and crush it is like the feet of the bear Different from all other kingdoms imparts to the leopard which is an exceedingly fast predator. Not just that, but some believe the ancient Leopard/panther under the Greeks used to mean that the leopard as it travelled the earth, taught the art of wine-making. That last part is interesting because the whore of Babylon influences the kings of the earth with her wine.
But in the physical makeup of this beast, only those 3 kingdoms are part of it. "9..The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."
The 7 heads are 7 kingdoms per Daniel. These 7 Kingdoms are ruled by 7 Kings. 5 Kings of these Kingdoms have fallen, 1 "is" which was a Roman King (the 6th), and there will be a 7th Kingdom and a 7th King after Rome. The beast will then be slain when all these 7 Kingdoms and Kings are fallen. The Beast that was (he used to be alive) and is not (because he was slain), he is the 8th and is of the 7. So what part of the beast is the 8th? Of the 7 heads of the beast, one of its heads (Kingdoms) which was slain and thought ot recieve a death wound began to heal and come back to life. That is the 8th head in Daniel. A new head as the 8th of the beast that had only 7 heads which is made up of the lion, leopard and bear. Yes, Satan shows Jesus that as an example of temptation. That doesnt say that Satan's seat is there. You're implying it is, but that is not what is said. Speculating is ok...I dont have an issue with that. Just dont make it a fact when we don't know where exactly without a doubt it will happen. Your making these appear as a fact when they are guesses, theories or some other thoughts...that is what I have an issue with. You believe it will happen over the Mediteranean area. Thats ok! You saying its gonna happen only there because the Bible says so--it doesnt spell it out for us so that statement would be false. There are some words that we notice such as the Euphrates drying up and men coming from the east that show there will be some things happening east of Israel. That I do ackknowledge. Scripture says those things so those things must be true. But I come to read your interpretation as it is ONLY there. Is that the case? I disgree with that. The Bible is about man's sin and God's people, his redemptive work, his saving grace, salvation and those who strive by faith...reward. Israel has always been God's people whether they are born of Israel or grafted into Israel - not Physical Israel. Actually the Bible possibly does say who they were. It mentions the people by their conflict. 1) Egypt=Pharaoh (unnamed, most Likely Ahmose I) 2) Assyria=Sennacherib 3) Babylon=Nebuchadnezzer 4) Persian=Cyrus 5) Grecian=Alexander 6) Roman=Nero ? 7) Some think Ottoman Empire as a possibility, I tend to believe it may have been Nazi Germany allied with the Ottomans. Similar to the Media-Persian alliance. 8) a new kingdom different then all others (Daniel 7:23)...which means none of these. Not Grecian, not Roman. Its makeup is part Grecian, Babylon and Persian. For the AC to heal the wound would imply he is on the scene before the 4th Kingdom comes into play. That goes against scripture. The bible says that the 10 horns rise out of this kingdom...THEN another horn comes (AC) into play. That all implies the kingdom is resurrected first, the 10 horns rise out of this kingdom second and last the AC appears to join it. Revelation 13 says: It rises out of the sea which is interpreted the nations of the world. The nations and people of the world is what gives rise to the 4th kingdom. Not the AC. The mouth comes after. That mouth that speaks boastfully proud words against Christ is the AC-11th horn. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jul 22, 2020 17:38:48 GMT -6
In reply you said (in quotes), Where is Europe defined as 10 Kings in scripture? It didnt exist. Where are 10 European countries (their locations) that exist today as defined as their geographical locations that existed during John's time as part of a beast? Using Europe as the 10 horns is an opinion and not scriptural. It was never said by God nor did God show in other terms that the last beast to be anywhere specifically. North, east, west or south of the Meditereanean. The markers describing the beast (like unto a leopard, feet of the bear..) possibly show that the 3 previous kingdoms (Babylon, Grecian and Persian) make up the 4th beast. Rome is absent. There are no identifiers in the last beast from Rome. Leopard=Grecian (Daniel 7:6) Bear=Media-Persian (Daniel 7:5) Lion=Babylon (Daniel 7:4) So why the physical makeup of these 3 past kingdoms and not Rome? Because of what was said in Daniel 7:23 Devour the whole earth is the mouth of the lion Trample it down and crush it is like the feet of the bear Different from all other kingdoms imparts to the leopard which is an exceedingly fast predator. Not just that, but some believe the ancient Leopard/panther under the Greeks used to mean that the leopard as it travelled the earth, taught the art of wine-making. That last part is interesting because the whore of Babylon influences the kings of the earth with her wine.
But in the physical makeup of this beast, only those 3 kingdoms are part of it. "9..The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."
The 7 heads are 7 kingdoms per Daniel. These 7 Kingdoms are ruled by 7 Kings. 5 Kings of these Kingdoms have fallen, 1 "is" which was a Roman King (the 6th), and there will be a 7th Kingdom and a 7th King after Rome. The beast will then be slain when all these 7 Kingdoms and Kings are fallen. The Beast that was (he used to be alive) and is not (because he was slain), he is the 8th and is of the 7. So what part of the beast is the 8th? Of the 7 heads of the beast, one of its heads (Kingdoms) which was slain and thought ot recieve a death wound began to heal and come back to life. That is the 8th head in Daniel. A new head as the 8th of the beast that had only 7 heads which is made up of the lion, leopard and bear. Yes, Satan shows Jesus that as an example of temptation. That doesnt say that Satan's seat is there. You're implying it is, but that is not what is said. Speculating is ok...I dont have an issue with that. Just dont make it a fact when we don't know where exactly without a doubt it will happen. Your making these appear as a fact when they are guesses, theories or some other thoughts...that is what I have an issue with. You believe it will happen over the Mediteranean area. Thats ok! You saying its gonna happen only there because the Bible says so--it doesnt spell it out for us so that statement would be false. There are some words that we notice such as the Euphrates drying up and men coming from the east that show there will be some things happening east of Israel. That I do ackknowledge. Scripture says those things so those things must be true. But I come to read your interpretation as it is ONLY there. Is that the case? I disgree with that. The Bible is about man's sin and God's people, his redemptive work, his saving grace, salvation and those who strive by faith...reward. Israel has always been God's people whether they are born of Israel or grafted into Israel - not Physical Israel. Actually the Bible possibly does say who they were. It mentions the people by their conflict. 1) Egypt=Pharaoh (unnamed, most Likely Ahmose I) 2) Assyria=Sennacherib 3) Babylon=Nebuchadnezzer 4) Persian=Cyrus 5) Grecian=Alexander 6) Roman=Nero ? 7) Some think Ottoman Empire as a possibility, I tend to believe it may have been Nazi Germany allied with the Ottomans. Similar to the Media-Persian alliance. 8) a new kingdom different then all others (Daniel 7:23)...which means none of these. Not Grecian, not Roman. Its makeup is part Grecian, Babylon and Persian. For the AC to heal the wound would imply he is on the scene before the 4th Kingdom comes into play. That goes against scripture. The bible says that the 10 horns rise out of this kingdom...THEN another horn comes (AC) into play. That all implies the kingdom is resurrected first, the 10 horns rise out of this kingdom second and last the AC appears to join it. Revelation 13 says: It rises out of the sea which is interpreted the nations of the world. The nations and people of the world is what gives rise to the 4th kingdom. Not the AC. The mouth comes after. That mouth that speaks boastfully proud words against Christ is the AC-11th horn. The 10 Kings COME UP out of the Fourth Beasts Head in Dan. 7. In Dan. 2 we are told the Kingdoms are FRACTURED or Iron and Clay and at the very end the Rock cut out of the mountain SMASHES TO SMITHEREENS the base/feet of the statue. The IRON was Rome thus the Iron and Clay is also the same area, or else it would not still be iron. Whereas before one Kingdom (Rome dominated) this time a collection of Nations, each with Presidents themselves, give their power to ONE MAN, the Beast/Anti-Christ. Prophecy points towards nothing else, Joel Richardson us wrong about an Islamic Anti-Christ and Armstrong and Alexander Hislop was wrong about the RCC and the Papal. It has nothing to do with Nations being ruled over by Rome, the Four Generals Kingdom is talking bout the lineage he comes out of, just like Antiochus he will be a Grecian, he will be an Assyrian by blood line, and since Greece is in the E.U. his power base will be the E.U. No one could understand this until the very end times (now). So, a Turk, born in Greece, who comes to power in the E.U. is who he will be. Dan. 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. The above tells us where he comes from, it can not be out of the Egyptian Kingdom else he would WAX GREAT TOWARDS the North only, maybe the East a little. He can't come out of the Seleucid Kingdom, else he would WAX GREAT TOWARDS the West, not the East. The Anti-Christ/Beast WAXES GREAT TOWARDS the South and East which means he comes from the North West. Out of the Four Kingdoms which one is Northwest? Macedonia or Greece, which is in the E.U. Only Greece fits because the bible tells us where he comes from. The North West out of these Four Generals, thus his Power Base will be out of the Head of the Fourth Beast. Jesus died in the Fourth Beasts Kingdom, come on. Rome was the Beast that had the Mortal Wound, the Anti-Christ will HEAL that wound. Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea(1), having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard (Greece), and his feet were as the feet of a bear,(Persia) and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(Babylon): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome); and his deadly wound was healed(Anti-Christ): and all the world wondered after the beast. The Beast who received the Mortal Wound was Rome, that takes precedent here, besides, Rome was never described as an Animal like the rest, but a Beast with Iron teeth and 10 horns which arise, then a Little Horn Beast will arise among them at the very end. The same thing was stated for Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar, that he would conquer the whole earth, it means the whole "LAND/Earth" being spoken of. The Romans on a Map covered every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline, NONE of the other kingdoms did this, Greece was a more eastern centric kingdom, it barely covered half of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline. Rome trampled down the whole Mediterranean Coastline like no other. The Beast comes out of the Sea. The Mortal Wound was against Rome. The Mountains represent POWERS/Kingdoms, there of course are way more than 7 Kings, God does something in order to tell us or in order to inform us that the Last Beast will be a MAN, not a Kingdom like the others, its a HUGE CLUE. He REDUCES the 7 Heads to 7 Kings who FALL. So, there are 7 Kingdoms/Mountains/Powers being spoken of, each Kingdom had a King at the helm when they lost Dominion, of course that would be true, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome all had ONE KING at the helm when the officially lost Dominion as a Beast power. The reason God does this is to show us the LAST BEAST HEAD is a Man, not a Kingdom per se. He is the only Beast to come to power as THE BEAST HEAD...........and to LOSE POWER as the Beast Head, he is thus cast straight into hell, the others all lived on for a time and a season as Dan. 7:12 tells us, but not this EVIL MAN, he is cast straight into hellfire, so says Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20. The short space represents the 42 month rule. The Little Horn/Anti-Christ is that 7th Kingdom/Head, he heals the 7 Headed Beast, not the Roman Beast, the Beast with 7 Heads arises out of the Sea, not the Roman Beast. That, IMHO, is where most people get off tracked by those of us who say he arises from Europe, none of us who are in the know are saying its the Revived Roman Empire the Culture is so different from 2000 years ago, its not going to be a Revived Roman Empire per se, it going to be a REVIVED BEAST and the 7th Head revives that Beast Rule over the Region, AND Israel has to be Conquered else there can be no Beast, the bible is a story about Israel. So, the whole Mediterranean Sea Region must come under the rule of one Gentile King/Power (Mountain), and Israel has to be n the land and BEASTED OVER. That is why the Ottomans could not be a Beast nor could the British Empire. The Beast Head that received a Mortal Wound was Rome, it went from a Beast to a Conveyor Belt of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Amen. The Scarlet Colored Beat of Rev. 17 that arises out of the bottomless pit is a Demon named Apollyon, he is the King over the Bottomless Pit (8th King). Rome received the Mortal Wound. That is why it arises out of the Sea when the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. There is no 8th head brother. There is an 8th King, just like we could call Satan a 9th King. God does this because he wanted us to not be able to figure this out until the very end times. Lock it up Daniel until the end jibes with that notion. Satan's rule is over the Whole World, this world is called Babylon by God in Rev. 16:19. He is over every Kingdom on earth, do you see any Governments that look like Jesus Christs rule would look ? They are all evil. This is my life's work brother, I don't really make guesses anymore, I used to make guesses, I pretty much locked all my understandings down pat after 35 years. A 1/3 of the Earth is going to be taken out by an asteroid/space rock according to Rev. 8. On April 13, 2029 an asteroid named Apophis is scheduled to come within 20 k miles of the earth, that is 10 TIMES closer than the moon !! If it hits {I think its the DOTL} it will hit just off the California Coast line (Mountain is cast into the sea) thereby taking out the Americas and the Pacific Ocean (1/3). So, the Beast is about the Mediterranean Sea Region, but there may be no USA by that time, as a matter of fact my thinking has come to see that as the Anti-Christs GO, GO, GO Sign, while the rest of the world is looking on in horror, trying to help, he goes forth Conquering on the DOTL, thus the 42 months run concurrent to the DOTL God's Wrath. The Euphrates mention is symbolic in nature, it is meant to show the Four Beasts of Daniel in the OVERALL PICTURE being painted, the Kings coming from the Euphrates are is meant to signify Babylon and Persia..........the Anti-Christ is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U. thus all Four Beasts are covered, then we are told the Demon Frog Spirits entice ALL THE KINGS FROM THE WHOLE WORLD, do you see why now I say the naming of the Kings from the East were symbolic in nature ? If you are going to say all the Kings from the WHOLE WORLD are going to gather to battle against God why even mention the Kings from the East? Because, you are symbolically showing ALL THE BEAST SYSTEMS via that and the Anti-Christ. The 6th Vial saying all the kings from the WHOLE WORLD gather to battle God at Armageddon lets us therefore know who God's is calling Babylon the Great in Rev. 16:19, thus we know who Babylon is now, THE WHOLE WORLD, or Satan's Dark Kingdom on this earth, of course when Babylon falls, Satan is locked in the pit for 1000 years. That doesn't change the facts that the bible is about Israel, every book to my knowledge was written by a Jew. It is Jewish Centric in nature. After the Rapture the 70th week is about Israel repenting. We could guess at who they were, but it would be an irrelevant point IMHO. Its all about the Last Beast being a MAN, that is why were are talking about the Kings who have FALLEN, and the Kings who ARISE as Mountains/powers. This MAN is the only Beast to both ARISE and FALL as the Beast. All this is doing is telling us the last Kingdom is a MAN, just like Rev. 13 tells us, his number is 666, which I think points to Mankind, just like 777 points to God. The King that fell via Babylon can be seen in Daniel 5, Mene, Mene, Tekel, I think its Belshaazar or something like that. Nero was not the King that fell, it was way after him, but like I stated, these Kings are not relevant. Its making a point that this LAST BEAST who ARISES will also FALL, unlike all the other kingdoms, this this one is SHORT as on 42 months. 7 is the Anti-Christ. No, it implies the Beast was dormant for 1600-1800 years. The 10 arise out of ONE........In other words the Roman Kingdom falls apart and 10 (which just means the full number thereof just like 7 means God is EVERYWHERE) Arise in its place but it can never COME TOGETHER (Cleave to one another) because its as Iron and Clay, so for 1600 to 1800 years they try to bring this kingdom back together via Marriage (Seed of man) and Wars, but of course God foreknew it would not happen until AFTER the Rapture, and after Israel reclaimed its homeland, else there can be no Beast over Israel unless they are in the land to start with. So, the 10 or however many it is over the 1600 some odd years, be it 7, be it 15, be it 20 or 25, they remain fractured (10) and ten the Anti-Christ is born AMONGST THEM (in Greece). So, the Little Horn arises in the E.U. (10) whatsoever that entails as per the numbers, it seems to be 26 now that England has pulled out of the E.U. The Sea is the Mediterranean Sea. Again, Nebuchadnezzar was said to conquer the WHOLE EARTH also, bit we know it was not the Whole Earth but ALL THE LAND/Earth being spoken of. And if 1/3 of the Earth is taken out by the asteroid, what will be the Whole Earth ? It actually says Satan gives him his power, they Worship the Beast, but it is not really that most of them are worshiping him to start with, its just that those who love Humanism, Abortion, Homosexuality etc., are in reality worshiping Satan by LOVING what Satan loves, and they do not even see it in many cases. How else do you get Humans to fight against their own Creator? You deceive them, hence God calls this whole earth and its inhabitants Babylon the Great OR the Kingdom of Babel............the CONFUSED who fight their own Creator !! Yes or the 7th Head of the Beast, which again shows him to be a MAN....Just like 666.....AND just like Rev. 17, where it reduces the Kingdoms to Kings who have FALLEN. They all three point to a MAN with a blasphemous mouth. The Little Horn points to a MAN also, that is why the POWER HORN here is called Little, referencing a man not a Kingdom. Alright brother, God Bless. We are near the very end now. It is an exciting time to be alive. |
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