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Post by nana on May 7, 2020 9:02:09 GMT -6
In light of current events, J.D. Farag explains his 180 on 2 Thess. 2:3 and now agrees that it speaks of the rapture. While the pre-trib doctrine is based on many Scriptures, if 2 Thess. 2:3 speaks of the rapture, the timing is then explicitly defined as occurring prior to the appearance of the Antichrist. 2 Thess. 2:7 directly parallels the verse. He also recommends a book I've read from Dr. Andy Woods on the subject. It's solid. www.amazon.com/Falling-Away-Spiritual-Departure-Thessalonians-ebook/dp/B07CH49HXRThank you, couldn't remember where I heard this from. |
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Post by yardstick on May 7, 2020 16:28:15 GMT -6
Here's my .02 cents,
While I know that the word can - in some contexts mean departure, - I'm still open, but not at all convinced that the word apostasia here means Harpazo, ie, the rapture.
The Parallel verse to 2 Thes 2:3, referened in Gary's thread, that is the topic of much discussion is I Timothy 4:1 .
Engl Stand version says "The Holy Spirit expressly says than in later times/ last days many will depart from the faith..." Leave, depart, fall from forsake, turn away, abandon. Many synonyms for the same concept of turning from, departing from the faith.
NASB, "But the Spirit explicitly says than in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."
From a linguistic, semantic perspective, 'rapture' or harpazo just doesn't make sense here at all.
Put it in your own words, and see how absurd it sounds. "The rapture won't happen until the rapture happens". Huh???
The case can be made that here Paul listing and describing two events. The second coming, and the rapture. Otherwise, it's also redundantly redundant.
Regardless of the timing - when people see the Harpazo/rapture happening in relation to the tribulation, it seems blatantly obvious that the gathering together to Him, is the rapture.
Let's try it this way. "Yo, Peeps of Thessalonica, relax - the gathering up together, won't happen until the gathering up together happens, yaknowwhatimsayin. "
For me, personally, the big wow, is not the question of meaning of departure, but rather, if we take 2 Thes 2:3 "the gathering together to him" to mean the rapture, than it's telling us explicitly that the AC/ Man of Lawlessness will be revealed before the rapture. 
So here's a thought, - I think a whole other thread perhaps, - is what exactly does it mean that he will be revealed. Does it mean that he's on the scenes, [Kushner, Macron, Gates, Fauci, - insert your favorite AC candidate] at work, setting the stage and that we- the watchmen, will recognize the signs?
*** "But YOU are not children of darkness, but of the day, so that day will NOT surprise you like a thief in the night." So, basically, the sheepdogs, - we- would know the stage is being set, because we watch and sound the alarm.
Or does it mean that he will be revealed fully for the world to see, as the AC.
How much more blatant can a person be than to proclaim on CNN, that the Coronavirus is setting the stage for global currency, global government, global religion and global vaccines, the tool for the mark. hmmmm. ----------------------------------------------------
I'm not a Greek scholar, but I majored in Linguistics and have studied Hebrew, Biblical Greek, Russian - which is based on Greek, Polish and Sign Language, and know that many languages of the world use cases, where the meaning of the sentence is determined by the special ending.
In English, we have a somewhat flexible word order, but mostly, the meaning is determined by word order, not case endings. Bob saw Frank. The word order tells us that Bob is the subject and Frank is the Object.
In Greek, and Polish, Russian, and many languages, the word order can be totally moved around, and the meaning is perfectly clear, by the ending. "The ball^ gave# small* Frank% crying# Timothy~." by the different endings on the word, it's clear that small is referring to the ball, but crying is referring to Timothy, not Frank. ;-) We have remnants of cases 500 years ago, and the closest thing is dative case, "to whom" or "for whom", so "He gave the ball to him." yardstick - the special endings of the word in Greek above is not nuances, but rather the case endings. Greek has 7 cases, and the ending determines which case, whether it is the subject, direct object or indirect object.
Hope that helps a bit. ;-)
Disciple4life.
It does help, since it's all greek to me.... But I think you have bolstered my point a bit related to grammatical cases. When we use a morpheme, as I mentioned above, it can change the meaning of the word. It has a new nuance: spell (verb - to give the sequence of letters that make up a word) to spelling (i.e. spelling bee - where we say what kind of bee is it? spelling is used as an adjective, still related to the sequence of letters, but denoting a type of competition, rather than just the sequence itself) Regarding your points prior, and near the beginning of your post, I have to point out a couple of things: 1. 1 Tim 4 versus 2 Thes 2 - is not the implication of the former one of continuous action, versus a singular event in the latter? 2. plugging in words - does your statement not presuppose a conflation of the Day of the Lord with the harpazo? That is, if 'that day will not come' refers to the second coming as in verse 2 Thes 2:1, and it is differentiated from the harpazo, then it would indeed make sense, don't you think? To clarify, the 'argument' here is that the first clause of verse 1 is an independent event from the second clause of verse 1. I would find it difficult to believe that Paul, the author that we quote and reference so much, would make the same euphemistic 'mistake' we believe has been made (related to conflating the second coming with the harpazo); unless the verse below indicates a post-trib rapture: |
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Post by yardstick on May 7, 2020 16:35:45 GMT -6
Been doing some word study also. Mainly on the prefix "apo". this is what I've been running into:
apo-
a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Greek, where it was joined to verbs, deverbal forms, and other parts of speech. Among its functions in Greek, apo- has the spatial sense “away, off, apart” (apogee; apocope; apostasy; apostrophe); it occurs with deverbals that denote a response or defense (apodosis; apology) and is found on verbs having perfective force relative to a corresponding simple verb (apoplexy; aposiopesis). In modern scientific coinages in English and other languages, apo- marks things that are detached, separate, or derivative (apocarpous; apoenzyme).
apo - prefix
1. away from; off: apogee
2. indicating separation of: apocarpous
3. indicating a lack or absence of: apogamy
4. indicating derivation from or relationship to: apomorphine
I know I've been on the fence about this myself and maybe it's time to pick a side, like JD Farag stated. But I think I'm going to have to go with a falling away from the faith here as the definition of apostasy. To me, its more like a "departure" from one's former character/mind/thought/standing/belief/faith. BUT! this does nothing to my belief in the pre-tribulation rapture as stated by (so far as I've found) these two scriptures:
"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!" Rom. 5:9
"...and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead— Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath." 1 Thess. 1:10 (this would be the rapture, no? Before the wrath!)
So I guess what I'm getting at is that whether apostasia means a rapture or a departure from the faith, it's only a mole hill that doesn't need to be made into a mountain only to frustrate new believers.
I find this explanation super-helpful, and would like to distill it a little. Here are the uses for 'apo': 1. spatial (location) sense 2. response or defense sense 3. perfective force of simple verb Which of these uses makes the most sense for the word in 2 Thes 2? To me, 3 is automatically ruled out because the sense of the word is not a verb. So is it responsive/defense, or spatial/location (relative to 'stasia')? Would it be safe to say "split away from"? |
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Post by yardstick on May 7, 2020 16:39:50 GMT -6
Whether or not one prefers the 'harpazo' to the 'falling away', the key take away should be a deeper understanding of scripture from the discussion, IMHO.
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Post by disciple4life on May 7, 2020 16:43:07 GMT -6
stormyknight , Hello my brother,
I think I understand your points/questions. Let me take a stab and see if I'm tracking with you.
stormyknight said [Stormy's quote in dark blue - D4L response in red] "Regarding your points prior, and near the beginning of your post, I have to point out a couple of things:
1. 1 Tim 4 versus 2 Thes 2 - is not the implication of the former one of continuous action, versus a singular event in the latter?
I agree with you in that 1 Tim 4:1 does seem to me also to indicate a condition - more like a progression than a once-in-time event, and yes, I also agree that Paul in 2 Thes 2:1-3 seems to be one or could be two events. [I think that linguistically and grammatically, it makes more sense that he's talking about two events - otherwise it's painfully redundant.
It's like saying, "Next weekend, my wife and I are going to the marriage celebration and the wedding." Or my friend from Krakow is coming for Independence day and 4th of July."
They are parallel verses in that 1 Tim 4:1 explicitly links last days with departing from the faith and the meaning is indisputable because he says in the same phrase "giving heed/ paying attention to doctrines of demons". II Thes 2:1-3 talks about a great falling away, and we all agree that it links this with either the rapture or second coming - but also end times, like I Tim 4:1 T Then, in II Thes 2:1-3, Paul says in v 2 "the Day of the Lord", and in very next sentence - v3, he says that it will not come unless the apostasy comes first. what is "it" ? The Day of the Lord, and this underscores a pre-tribulation rapture, where the AC is revealed mid-trib.
It's easy to understand how they might think they are in the tribulation - as the theme of the entire book is Understanding the Day of the Lord !!
***These people were already familiar with multiple passages from the OT prophets who explicitly said that the day of the Lord was when the Lord judges the haughty, wicked, - always described with terrible words. No other writer anywhere, ever uses the Day of Christ, - only Paul, 4 times, and only/always to believers about believers. It's a wedding. the Rapture.
For this reason, in regards to your second point above - I think Paul makes it explicitly clear by the words and also the different audiences, that these two are very distinctly different. I think mike captured it well. I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture - that perfectly mirrors the Wedding, when the groom comes with a shout, and the bride is lifted up - and takes the bride away for 7 days, into the wedding chamber, and this 7 days in the chupah [wedding chamber] mirrors the 7 year tribulation and that we - the sheepdogs, will not be surprised.
I think that as the event gets closer, there may likely be a warning event, much like the 7 days before the flood, and water breaking in birth, - "OK, it's really really coming, - get your bag that you have prepared and that's sitting by the front door."
I also believe that we can believe Pauls words, - that we will not be surprised like a thief in the night - *** the Hebrew idiom for the Captain of the temple guard, so I don't see the sense in buying 3 camping stoves and 3 years worth of Ramen noodles and evaporated milk now.
But if we see the 3rd temple construction starting, or a major world attack on Israel, or a massive Ginormous earthquake, - that affects 3 continents, or the entire world economy implodes - then, i'll take that to mean that I was mistaken and the tribulation has started and it will be very exciting, and a lot of questions will be answered for milliions - and then i'll buy the camping stoves, and all attention will be instantly focused on surviving and sharing our home, food with unbelievers.
Disciple4life
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Post by stormyknight on May 8, 2020 8:44:13 GMT -6
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Post by mike on May 8, 2020 8:55:39 GMT -6
yardstick said cant these be simultaneous? Is that what you were trying to say? Like "for dinner I want to have filet mignon & and a baked potato" they happen at the same time. OR It could also be said "I want filet mignon and carrot cake (for dessert)" One happens then the other with a bit of time in between. I love you brother but I have no idea here, way beyond my understanding. This is like "Math Class" to me  <which btw Stick - I have been listening to Chuck Missler quite a bit lately and MAN! his math/science background really helps me see how deep the things of God truly are> disciple4life exactly bro - if I see 100 lb hailstones then...
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Post by Gary on May 8, 2020 10:12:46 GMT -6
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Post by yardstick on May 8, 2020 18:41:14 GMT -6
stormyknight , Hello my brother,
I think I understand your points/questions. Let me take a stab and see if I'm tracking with you.
stormyknight said [Stormy's quote in dark blue - D4L response in red] "Regarding your points prior, and near the beginning of your post, I have to point out a couple of things:
1. 1 Tim 4 versus 2 Thes 2 - is not the implication of the former one of continuous action, versus a singular event in the latter?
I agree with you in that 1 Tim 4:1 does seem to me also to indicate a condition - more like a progression than a once-in-time event, and yes, I also agree that Paul in 2 Thes 2:1-3 seems to be one or could be two events. [I think that linguistically and grammatically, it makes more sense that he's talking about two events - otherwise it's painfully redundant.
It's like saying, "Next weekend, my wife and I are going to the marriage celebration and the wedding." Or my friend from Krakow is coming for Independence day and 4th of July."
They are parallel verses in that 1 Tim 4:1 explicitly links last days with departing from the faith and the meaning is indisputable because he says in the same phrase "giving heed/ paying attention to doctrines of demons". II Thes 2:1-3 talks about a great falling away, and we all agree that it links this with either the rapture or second coming - but also end times, like I Tim 4:1 T Then, in II Thes 2:1-3, Paul says in v 2 "the Day of the Lord", and in very next sentence - v3, he says that it will not come unless the apostasy comes first. what is "it" ? The Day of the Lord, and this underscores a pre-tribulation rapture, where the AC is revealed mid-trib.
It's easy to understand how they might think they are in the tribulation - as the theme of the entire book is Understanding the Day of the Lord !!
***These people were already familiar with multiple passages from the OT prophets who explicitly said that the day of the Lord was when the Lord judges the haughty, wicked, - always described with terrible words. No other writer anywhere, ever uses the Day of Christ, - only Paul, 4 times, and only/always to believers about believers. It's a wedding. the Rapture.
For this reason, in regards to your second point above - I think Paul makes it explicitly clear by the words and also the different audiences, that these two are very distinctly different. I think mike captured it well. I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture - that perfectly mirrors the Wedding, when the groom comes with a shout, and the bride is lifted up - and takes the bride away for 7 days, into the wedding chamber, and this 7 days in the chupah [wedding chamber] mirrors the 7 year tribulation and that we - the sheepdogs, will not be surprised.
I think that as the event gets closer, there may likely be a warning event, much like the 7 days before the flood, and water breaking in birth, - "OK, it's really really coming, - get your bag that you have prepared and that's sitting by the front door."
I also believe that we can believe Pauls words, - that we will not be surprised like a thief in the night - *** the Hebrew idiom for the Captain of the temple guard, so I don't see the sense in buying 3 camping stoves and 3 years worth of Ramen noodles and evaporated milk now.
But if we see the 3rd temple construction starting, or a major world attack on Israel, or a massive Ginormous earthquake, - that affects 3 continents, or the entire world economy implodes - then, i'll take that to mean that I was mistaken and the tribulation has started and it will be very exciting, and a lot of questions will be answered for milliions - and then i'll buy the camping stoves, and all attention will be instantly focused on surviving and sharing our home, food with unbelievers.
Disciple4life
It does not have to be for you. It can be left as a mercy for those who are left behind. That is how I see it. If we are not going to be here, we do not need the supplies. However, I believe there will be Believers here after we have gone - those to convert after the fact. This IMHO is a mercy for them, keeping them out of the reach of the beast a little longer: Dan 12:12 |
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Post by yardstick on May 8, 2020 18:47:37 GMT -6
yardstick said cant these be simultaneous? Is that what you were trying to say? Like "for dinner I want to have filet mignon & and a baked potato" they happen at the same time. OR It could also be said "I want filet mignon and carrot cake (for dessert)" One happens then the other with a bit of time in between. I love you brother but I have no idea here, way beyond my understanding. This is like "Math Class" to me <which btw Stick - I have been listening to Chuck Missler quite a bit lately and MAN! his math/science background really helps me see how deep the things of God truly are> disciple4life exactly bro - if I see 100 lb hailstones then... When you get the filet mignon, and the baked potato, is one dependent on the other? That is, can you get the baked potato first and the filet second; or the filet first and the potato second? Do they have to arrive at the same time? 'And' as a conjunction can mean 'with', or it can also mean 'in addition to'; right? |
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Post by mike on May 8, 2020 19:22:03 GMT -6
Maybe a little. I wouldnt get spaghetti with baked potato side |
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Post by venge on May 9, 2020 7:45:07 GMT -6
yardstick said cant these be simultaneous? Is that what you were trying to say? Like "for dinner I want to have filet mignon & and a baked potato" they happen at the same time. OR It could also be said "I want filet mignon and carrot cake (for dessert)" One happens then the other with a bit of time in between. I love you brother but I have no idea here, way beyond my understanding. This is like "Math Class" to me <which btw Stick - I have been listening to Chuck Missler quite a bit lately and MAN! his math/science background really helps me see how deep the things of God truly are> disciple4life exactly bro - if I see 100 lb hailstones then... When you get the filet mignon, and the baked potato, is one dependent on the other? That is, can you get the baked potato first and the filet second; or the filet first and the potato second? Do they have to arrive at the same time? 'And' as a conjunction can mean 'with', or it can also mean 'in addition to'; right? Been trying to refrain from posting on this thread, but what would a thread be without my opposition.  If the text read: Would any here have an issue? But because it refers back to "that day", the Day of the Lord, that it becoems an issue beccause it disagrees with Pre TB. It links the "coming" of Christ w/the rapture. There are 2 facts: 1. The coming of our Lord Jesus causes us to be raptured 1. The coming of our Lord Jesus causes the Day of the Lord I'm not going to talk about splitting them up (as Pre TB does), or keeping them together (as other TB models do). I'm going to link some KJV biblehub here, so bare with me: Paul and his companions are all dead and Christ has not come yet. The rest they will receive has not happened yet, as Christ return has not happened yet. Not just that, but his return is not just "in the air", but with angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on the wicked. Paul already instructed the Thessalonians that their persecution was worthy for the kingdom of God. But he finishes his point after verse 12: He is referring back to 2 Thessalonians 5-12, specifically 7 and 8 highlighted above. The rest they receive at the coming of Christ when he will bring his wrath links "our gathering together unto him." I don't believe Paul was saying to the Thessalonians: Thessalonians, you think because you are being persecuted, you missed the rapture and are stuck in the Day of the Lord. No! I think he said: Thessalonians, you think because you are being persecuted that the Day of the Lord is near and that we'd be raptured soon. IMO, Paul says to that "No"! We wont be raptured soon. Why do I say that? Because of the following verse in that reply. Or a better way to put it: let no one deceieve you saying the Day of the Lord is near, which is Christ coming and our being gathered to him, for a departure must come first and the man of sin revealed. Did a departure come or was the man of sin revealed during the Thessalonians persecution? No. So, because both these 2 things were lacking in their time, Paul said " That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.." Outside of Paul saying, a departure must come first and the man of sin revealed, why do I think they must precede a rapture? Well, not just because I believe that is how Paul spoke it, but does Christ come to gather us when everything is nice outside or when the earth is covered in complete spiritual darkness? What the dwellers of the earth do to Christians, and have been doing to us, is man's sin. If the Holocaust (massive persecution) was not God's wrath on the Jews (but man's sinful nature), why would great persecution be wrath on Christians? I'm not trying to change the OP, I'm just explaining how I think. On a different note: I missed who said it, but they referred back to Song of Solomon regarding the bride of Christ. Please notice this passage: Solomon, as a figure of Christ, was married on the same day he began to reign. And Christ is also married on the same day he begins to reign after Babylon is destroyed. mike , I think Paul shows they can be 2 events (the Lord's coming and the rapture) that happen both on the Day of the Lord (not a 24hr day). And its not just those 2 events on the Day of the Lord, but also other events such as "taking vengeance on them that know not God." disciple4life , and I think Sog said something about if they are here in persecution, and they were wrong about being raptured before all this happens...they will remain faithful, doing what God wants and will try to help others. That has always been my point on this site! You may never see this as I do, just have an open mind if you are wrong, to be ready if these things come to pass. Because if you (any believer on the planet) are not open, and they do come, I pray for those on the earth that may not lose faith/love when they need it the most. |
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Post by mike on May 9, 2020 8:39:59 GMT -6
Venge Though your viewpoint may differ from others (especially the pre-trib view) your final point to D4L, SOG (and it was me who said it) if we see the 2 witnesses, a third temple, an attack on Israel, or 100 lb hail stones or (pick anything that is supposed to be after the rapture in a pre-trib model), then we ought to be prepared. I have said this many times, "I want the pre-trib understanding to be accurate in its unfolding, but if it isnt then I do not want to go into the final days before the Lord returns not seeing, much like those who did not see after He rose from the grave" Yes we've diverged from the OP a little but thats how conversations go sometimes |
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Post by yardstick on May 9, 2020 17:37:44 GMT -6
Maybe a little. I wouldnt get spaghetti with baked potato side Of course not. You would get the spaghetti with the garlic bread. But that is a different theology  |
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Post by venge on May 10, 2020 5:47:23 GMT -6
Maybe a little. I wouldnt get spaghetti with baked potato side Of course not. You would get the spaghetti with the garlic bread. But that is a different theology Is it really? Bread and potato are both carbs..soo… |
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<which btw Stick - I have been listening to Chuck Missler quite a bit lately and MAN! his math/science background really helps me see how deep the things of God truly are>
