andrew
Layman
Still here...till the end.
Posts: 99 
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Post by andrew on Apr 8, 2020 11:27:14 GMT -6
I have no particular insight or revelation into this matter, but I wonder if the dead in Christ will rise on Easter (i.e. this weekend), testify to the world for forty days, then go up on Ascension day?
Is this why it was specifically mentioned that we will not precede them, so we don't freak out when we aren't raptured before this happens?
Do we go then?
Do we have to testify a further ten days as "Smyrna"?
Thoughts?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 8, 2020 12:37:43 GMT -6
I agree we do not know the timeframe between both of these events. One thing I find is the unique wording of this passage
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The dead are raised...
Those not dead (those alive then) will be changed. It does not say those still alive are raised. It is implied though, right?
The word for raised refers to being awaken.. The word for changed here is "transformed". see Bible Hub
It does say at the last trump so likely the two events are close together. However, the 7th, last trump is not a single event.
Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.
It implies here that it is a duration of time.
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Post by mike on Apr 8, 2020 12:51:38 GMT -6
andrew, Just a practical question to ask in this exegesis - Suppose the raising of the dead occurs with some type of delay before those alive are changed...what happens if someone dies during that 40 days or however many moments this delay is? For example - resurrection is tomorrow April 9 (someone please tell me the Hebrew equiv.) and we have resurrected dead brothers/sisters all around the globe in the millions...Of course mass hysteria would ensue over something like that happening assuming the world can see it. However, we are no longer blinded so we should be able to see it. Then about half way through this time (you pick 20 days, 20 minutes, whatever the time) a believe dies, what happens to him/her since he/she already miss the raising of the dead and wont be alive at the time of the transformation? Just asking if you have contemplated this and have answers for it as I do not and therefore have a difficult time seeing the possibility
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Post by mike on Apr 8, 2020 13:43:01 GMT -6
I agree we do not know the timeframe between both of these events. One thing I find is the unique wording of this passage 50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The dead are raised... Those not dead (those alive then) will be changed. It does not say those still alive are raised. It is implied though, right? The word for raised refers to being awaken.. The word for changed here is "transformed". see Bible Hub It does say at the last trump so likely the two events are close together. However, the 7th, last trump is not a single event. Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.It implies here that it is a duration of time. I wonder if the point Paul was making ties back to verse 50. Since the dead have little to no flesh left on them, nor have they any blood the 'seed' is that mortal body and like a flower the seed is planted, then the flower comes after. For those alive remaining they have flesh and blood which must be changed, like those who have gone on before but different in that the process of putting on immortality is different |
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andrew
Layman
Still here...till the end.
Posts: 99
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Post by andrew on Apr 8, 2020 20:07:50 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Apr 9, 2020 5:26:08 GMT -6
I have no particular insight or revelation into this matter, but I wonder if the dead in Christ will rise on Easter (i.e. this weekend), testify to the world for forty days, then go up on Ascension day? Is this why it was specifically mentioned that we will not precede them, so we don't freak out when we aren't raptured before this happens? Do we go then? Do we have to testify a further ten days as "Smyrna"? Thoughts? 2 Thessalonians says: The verse specifically asks a question. When will the Lord come back and when he does, gather us together with him "the rapture". The next verse tells us at that the Thessalonians were concerned they missed the coming of the Lord and the rapture. Paul then says, "that day"...which day? Refer back to verse 1. The day Christ returns and gathers us to him. That day will not happen until 2 things happen first. 1. The falling away 2. man of sin is revealed Now, I know some here may disagree but Paul expressively points out to his audience, Christian gentiles, "that day" in verse 3 refers to verse 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him". This is followed by "except a falling away first, and AC is revealed. These are 2 prerequisites that must occur before we are gathered. |
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Post by fitz on Apr 9, 2020 7:28:05 GMT -6
I have no particular insight or revelation into this matter, but I wonder if the dead in Christ will rise on Easter (i.e. this weekend), testify to the world for forty days, then go up on Ascension day? Is this why it was specifically mentioned that we will not precede them, so we don't freak out when we aren't raptured before this happens? Do we go then? Do we have to testify a further ten days as "Smyrna"? Thoughts? 2 Thessalonians says: The verse specifically asks a question. When will the Lord come back and when he does, gather us together with him "the rapture". The next verse tells us at that the Thessalonians were concerned they missed the coming of the Lord and the rapture. Paul then says, "that day"...which day? Refer back to verse 1. The day Christ returns and gathers us to him. That day will not happen until 2 things happen first. 1. The falling away 2. man of sin is revealed Now, I know some here may disagree but Paul expressively points out to his audience, Christian gentiles, "that day" in verse 3 refers to verse 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him". This is followed by "except a falling away first, and AC is revealed. These are 2 prerequisites that must occur before we are gathered. I beg to differ. The "day" spoken of here is not the day of the rapture. The day is the Day of the Lord. The rapture occurs just prior to this day. The anti-christ can only be revealed AFTER the restrainer (the Holy Spirit filled church) is taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:5–8 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. |
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Post by venge on Apr 9, 2020 15:00:38 GMT -6
andrew2 Thessalonians says: The verse specifically asks a question. When will the Lord come back and when he does, gather us together with him "the rapture". The next verse tells us at that the Thessalonians were concerned they missed the coming of the Lord and the rapture. Paul then says, "that day"...which day? Refer back to verse 1. The day Christ returns and gathers us to him. That day will not happen until 2 things happen first. 1. The falling away 2. man of sin is revealed Now, I know some here may disagree but Paul expressively points out to his audience, Christian gentiles, "that day" in verse 3 refers to verse 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him". This is followed by "except a falling away first, and AC is revealed. These are 2 prerequisites that must occur before we are gathered. I beg to differ. The "day" spoken of here is not the day of the rapture. The day is the Day of the Lord. The rapture occurs just prior to this day. The anti-christ can only be revealed AFTER the restrainer (the Holy Spirit filled church) is taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:5–8 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. I did write, some here will differ in opinion. I’m not alone in seeing it this way. You are right sort of. The day of the Lord is here, but what you don’t see is it’s also a rapture. |
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Post by fitz on Apr 9, 2020 15:38:13 GMT -6
I beg to differ. The "day" spoken of here is not the day of the rapture. The day is the Day of the Lord. The rapture occurs just prior to this day. The anti-christ can only be revealed AFTER the restrainer (the Holy Spirit filled church) is taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:5–8 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. I did write, some here will differ in opinion. I’m not alone in seeing it this way. You are right sort of. The day of the Lord is here, but what you don’t see is it’s also a rapture. Not "sort of"...of course I am right!  Ha! I think that they happen pretty much simultaneously, or one right after the other. Many think there is some kind of gap between, but it's "sudden destruction"...we go up, judgment comes down. But I do not think we sare here to see him revealed, and that's my main point. We differ more on the timing. That's Ok. |
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Post by mike on Apr 9, 2020 16:31:00 GMT -6
fitz i just watched this video. I think you may like it.
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 9, 2020 17:30:00 GMT -6
I have no particular insight or revelation into this matter, but I wonder if the dead in Christ will rise on Easter (i.e. this weekend), testify to the world for forty days, then go up on Ascension day? Is this why it was specifically mentioned that we will not precede them, so we don't freak out when we aren't raptured before this happens? Do we go then? Do we have to testify a further ten days as "Smyrna"? Thoughts? Hello my brother, Welcome to the forum !!
There is a lot we all agree on here, and some things we don't, but we try to share and learn from each other. ;-)
While there are differing views on the timing of the resurrection [Harpazo] rapture, - there is almost universal consensus around several notions related to the event itself. 1. This event is instantaneous - in the blink of an eye, and the word is where we get our word atom. The twinkling of an eye. It's not a process or duration like feast of unleavened bread. 7 days. 2. The idea that there is a 40 day gap is not even suggested anywhere in any passage. 3, The text explicitly links the resurrection of the dead in Christ with the Harpazo [rapture] catching up quickly with those, together in the clouds.
1 Thessallonians 4: 15-18. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
4. Also, we have to look at the meaning of the word Harpazo - it is the word in Greek, from the Latin "rapturo" which is where we get rapture, and it means to "to be snatched up, or caught up quickly by force". The entire resurrection of the dead and resurrection of those alive is instant.
The text makes clear in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thes that the rapture of us - the living, will not happen before/ precede the rapture of those asleep. Paul does not mention or even indicate any pause or gap.
Since he is specifically explaining the rapture to the Christians at Thessalonica, who thought they might have missed the Second coming, Paul is explaining what it looks like. He says the event is in the blink of an eye, and if there were even a one hour gap, then we have this very odd phenomena of all the world freaking out because millions of dead people rose, and then an hour or a day or 3 days later, we are caught up - would be two separate events.
Then, the key detail about the Anti-Christ/ man of lawlessness being revealed, depends on whether you see the Day of the Lord as being the rapture, or the Second Coming, or some see these as two different terms for the exact same event.
I'm in the camp that sees the Day of the Lord as the Second coming, - at the end of the 7 year tribulation, and I'm pre-tribulation, - believing that the Harpazo/rapture happens at the start of the tribulation - just as the bride is literally lifted up and taken into the wedding chamber for 7 days, at the last Trumpet - the Tekia Gadola - the 100th blast of the trumpet - at Feast of Trumpets - the next feast in order that has yet to be fulfilled.
Cheers,
Disciple4life
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Post by fitz on Apr 10, 2020 4:31:43 GMT -6
fitz i just watched this video. I think you may like it. Thanks Mike, I'll check it out. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2020 13:04:18 GMT -6
fitz i just watched this video. I think you may like it. I really enjoyed this. I am seeing so much resistance to the Rapture on social media. It seems as though it rattles the cages of some professed Believers who cannot help themselves but to dispute Christ's own words. I sense that many churches believe this is TOO BIG AN EVENT to be possible for God. I think they view our faith as something quite natural and reasonable - not to be sullied with signs and wonders. I have also seen exhaustive details written about how we need to reveal the AC before the Rapture; how only the GOOD Christians will go up before Tribulation; and how there is no distinction between Tribulation Saints and the Church. And so many of these declarations are prefaced with the assertion that they have studied Scripture for decades, yadda yadda. It feels like they are agitated and this anticipation is maddening for them. It makes me wonder about their true motivation, to be honest. |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 10, 2020 16:06:41 GMT -6
boymaker ,
I just saw an article yesterday that showed the majority of Evangelical pastors see the coronavirus and the current events as signs of End Times. I'll try to find it. It was really encouraging. I don't think their sample is representative of the majority of pastors nationwide.
Here's my .02 cents. I thought of this again with this video, and about how a friend of mine was telling me how many books his dad had read on end times and how much he has studied it, etc, and it crossed my mind again when I was watching this.
It's from one of the greatest movies of all time "National Treasure" they are gathering clues that have to be deciphered correctly, which if deciphered will lead to another clue and another mystery, and another riddle, which goes across the US.
They are racing against the villain who is also searching for the treasure.
There is a map, in special invisible ink, on the back of the Constitution, and to see this map, they need special colored glasses of Benjamin franklin.
The Map is worthless without the special glasses, and the glasses are worthless without the map. The clues have to be deciphered in order to know that the glasses exist.
The map is like the Holy Spirit -- Millions of pastors around the world have the Holy Spirit and we can never underestimate how vital the Holy Spirit is in interpreting scripture. Without the HS, we cannot understand scripture - the case in point is the Jews - they have the scriptures, but their eyes are blinded for now.
But the glasses are the Hebrew world view.  The Bible is a story about a Jewish man, written primarily by Jews, to a Mostly Jewish audience, in Jewish culture.
You can have the map, but just like the Catholics and the Good Friday and Palm Sunday myth, you can't interpret it properly without the glasses - the Hebrew world view. [I'm convinced that some of the Pastors don't even have the Holy Spirit, and these are the ones that are deceiving so many, just like the Catholic church]
I thought this video was OK. He had some good points about the stage-setting for the tribulation - but he's basically building an entire position - that there is a gap between the rapture and the tribulation - and scripture doesn't say this.
Also, - There is not an iota of scripture anywhere that says the rapture is imminent. Just as the myth of Good Friday is built upon a flawed premise - [Not understanding that every feast is "Shabbat", assuming that Day before the Sabbath was Friday]
In fact, in every instance when there is a picture of shadow of the rapture, and in the parable and in other teachings, where Christ likens it to something else, -Great Flood of Noah, and Days of Lot, and the Wedding/5 foolish bridesmaids, and birth, every one of these things were not "happen at any moment events" but all of them have specific markers or warnings.
The entire concept of Imminent ,[surprise, any day rapture theory] is based on one verse entirely taken out of context, while ignoring others.
Disciple4life,
Happy Resurrection Day!! He is Risen Indeed. |
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andrew
Layman
Still here...till the end.
Posts: 99
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Post by andrew on Apr 11, 2020 18:21:41 GMT -6
I have no particular insight or revelation into this matter, but I wonder if the dead in Christ will rise on Easter (i.e. this weekend), testify to the world for forty days, then go up on Ascension day? Is this why it was specifically mentioned that we will not precede them, so we don't freak out when we aren't raptured before this happens? Do we go then? Do we have to testify a further ten days as "Smyrna"? Thoughts? Hello my brother, Welcome to the forum !!
There is a lot we all agree on here, and some things we don't, but we try to share and learn from each other. ;-)
While there are differing views on the timing of the resurrection [Harpazo] rapture, - there is almost universal consensus around several notions related to the event itself. 1. This event is instantaneous - in the blink of an eye, and the word is where we get our word atom. The twinkling of an eye. It's not a process or duration like feast of unleavened bread. 7 days. 2. The idea that there is a 40 day gap is not even suggested anywhere in any passage. 3, The text explicitly links the resurrection of the dead in Christ with the Harpazo [rapture] catching up quickly with those, together in the clouds.
1 Thessallonians 4: 15-18. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
4. Also, we have to look at the meaning of the word Harpazo - it is the word in Greek, from the Latin "rapturo" which is where we get rapture, and it means to "to be snatched up, or caught up quickly by force". The entire resurrection of the dead and resurrection of those alive is instant.
The text makes clear in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thes that the rapture of us - the living, will not happen before/ precede the rapture of those asleep. Paul does not mention or even indicate any pause or gap.
Since he is specifically explaining the rapture to the Christians at Thessalonica, who thought they might have missed the Second coming, Paul is explaining what it looks like. He says the event is in the blink of an eye, and if there were even a one hour gap, then we have this very odd phenomena of all the world freaking out because millions of dead people rose, and then an hour or a day or 3 days later, we are caught up - would be two separate events.
Then, the key detail about the Anti-Christ/ man of lawlessness being revealed, depends on whether you see the Day of the Lord as being the rapture, or the Second Coming, or some see these as two different terms for the exact same event.
I'm in the camp that sees the Day of the Lord as the Second coming, - at the end of the 7 year tribulation, and I'm pre-tribulation, - believing that the Harpazo/rapture happens at the start of the tribulation - just as the bride is literally lifted up and taken into the wedding chamber for 7 days, at the last Trumpet - the Tekia Gadola - the 100th blast of the trumpet - at Feast of Trumpets - the next feast in order that has yet to be fulfilled.
Cheers,
Disciple4life
If Paul does not mention or indicate a pause or gap, wht does it say, "After that"? I have been a member here for several years, under the assumption that discussion did not have to end in agreement with the majority. |
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Ha!
