Post by neural on Aug 26, 2019 14:40:33 GMT -6
Outline (yeah, it's gonna be a long read):
I - Notices & warnings
II - Preface
III - Theory
IV - Conclusion
Notices & Warnings
I wish I didn't have to go into this, but when presenting theories that are off the beaten path, especially in the scope of this forum, I feel it is required to inform the reader that the theory I am going to present is just that, a theory. It is an unverified theory, and I am currently in the stage of studying scripture to find solid evidence that invalidates this theory. That said, I should point out that people often stumble in conversation when they are unable to set aside their views. If you are unable to look at things objectively and consider that the way you interpret some scripture might not be correct, I would ask that you move on.
Preface
I am bringing this to this forum because while I don't agree with everyone here, there are some basic principles that most of us do understand and follow. Additionally what I am about to present, while extremely controversial, is pretty much unheard of. My wife and I have looked at this on a hunch, and it is nothing more than that. It is based on our observations of the way the world is today, matched up against scriptural interpretations and the problem the church has today with multiple interpretations. I have stated in the past that I am highly annoyed with the vast fracturing in the church, and almost all of it is based on different interpretations of God's Word. We have translational issues with scripture, and if we're honest, the seminaries have been poised as well. On top of that is a very pervasive attitude that if someone hasn't "been to seminary" that they are uneducated and can't possibly understand the Word of God. I'm used to being brushed off as "uneducated", and if anyone chooses to do so here, that's fine.
My theory takes the following liberties:
- It takes a post tribulation rapture viewpoint
- It assumes that the devil has spent 6000 years working towards this time, and for the past 2000 years has been focusing heavily on distorting the Word of God specifically to bring the church to the fractured state where it is today.
- It assumes also that much like the pharisees of Jesus' day, we as a body are both completely convinced we know what is going to happen and how, and as a body are also completely wrong.
- It assumes a partially literal interpretation of prophecy based on the idea that the interpretation that John made of what he was shown was specifically directed by God to be ambiguous because to do otherwise would violate mans freedom of choice (If God gave everyone an exact road-map with times, dates, etc. freedom of choice would be violated because faith would no longer be part of the equation).
- Lastly, it assumes the position that only those who are watching and studying will understand and see what is going on. "..as in the days of Noah" where people were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage does not, in my opinion, evoke pictures of a world that has just been through the trumpets and bowls. Nor does the depiction of two people working in a field where one is taken, and one is left.
Theory
For many people, this will be very easy to just post "nope, because x scripture says...", which is fine. I'm used to that, but before going down that path, please take into consideration whether or not your reference is something that is contested as to it's interpretation. A perfect example of this is the pre-trib/post-trib rapture debate. I have seen people interpreting the same scriptures differently, and it's obvious that the evidence is pretty convincing for a lot of people, as there are thousands and thousands of Christians who believe one or the other. With that in mind, I would ask that people here strike from their arguments scripture that is heavily contested in it's interpretation.
I am looking, at this point, for logical issues, as that is the first place to start. An example of a bad theory where logic simply breaks the theory, were to be if I were claiming that the Abomination of Desolation had already happened (note: I am NOT posing this). It is easily broken as the third temple has not been built yet. Or if I were to claim that the Ezekiel 38 war had already happened (note: I am NOT posing this). It is easily debunked because it is very clear that no such thing has happened, because there has been no event where Israel has been defended by what can only be seen by Israel as an act of God that the nations would recognize as something He and only He could do.
The big catalyst for me in this theory was September 23rd, 2017, supplimented by August 21, 2017. While we know a lot about the great sign, there is a lot of confusion as to what it meant beyond just a random fulfillment of prophecy, which isn't really something God tends to do. When a prophecy is fulfilled, it usually has meaning beyond just fulfillment. There are numerous individuals using the "road-sign" parallel, claiming that something would happen one year after the sign, and now claiming something will happen 2 years after the sign, just as they will be claiming something will happen 3 years after the sign should nothing happen this year. However, outside these predictions, the meaning of the sign has been somewhat of an enigma. Unless it heralded the start of the tribulation, in which it would be a very appropriate way to bring such to the attention of believers. The eclipse on the 21st crossing over 7 cities/towns named "Salem" may not be anything to do with "peace", but perhaps a pointer to the current focus of the world being on Jerusalem, as prophecy said would happen.
Anyway, I'm open to learning of scripture that solidly contradicts this, but please note if you are going to reference scripture please be sure that there is a solid anchor to a timeline. I thought for some time that Daniel 9:27 referred to the beginning of a 7 year covenant, because I had been taught for decades that it meant the anti-Christ would make a covenant, when it actually says he will "confirm" a covenant, meaning that the covenant could already be in place.
Incidentally, it was August 22nd, 2017 that Jerrod Kushner went to the Middle East to garner the agreement of the Middle East nations to a peace plan. And while we don't have some national news headline claiming "Peace on Earth!" or even "Peace and Safety", he did, in fact, get an agreement from the nations to a peace plan that was not complete yet. An agreement that "yes, we want peace, and we will agree to a plan that you put together if it benefits all of us as you are stating it will". I'm not claiming Jerrod to be the anti-Christ, but he was there representing our President, who has on a number of occasions now, been elevated by the press to messiah status in regards to Israel (not to mention that a number of people here in the US, Christians and non-Christians both, idolize him).
Again, I realize this is way out of left field and quite the controversial view point, but while it may easily be shot down, I would ask that you take off your "pre-trib" glasses when taking this into consideration. I know of no better community to discuss this with, as while we may disagree on things, many here know how to study the Word.
In the end, this theory, just as any other rapture/end-times theory is of no consequence when compared to the importance of God's Grace and the need for people to believe and accept the gift that Jesus brought through His sacrifice.
I - Notices & warnings
II - Preface
III - Theory
IV - Conclusion
Notices & Warnings
I wish I didn't have to go into this, but when presenting theories that are off the beaten path, especially in the scope of this forum, I feel it is required to inform the reader that the theory I am going to present is just that, a theory. It is an unverified theory, and I am currently in the stage of studying scripture to find solid evidence that invalidates this theory. That said, I should point out that people often stumble in conversation when they are unable to set aside their views. If you are unable to look at things objectively and consider that the way you interpret some scripture might not be correct, I would ask that you move on.
Preface
I am bringing this to this forum because while I don't agree with everyone here, there are some basic principles that most of us do understand and follow. Additionally what I am about to present, while extremely controversial, is pretty much unheard of. My wife and I have looked at this on a hunch, and it is nothing more than that. It is based on our observations of the way the world is today, matched up against scriptural interpretations and the problem the church has today with multiple interpretations. I have stated in the past that I am highly annoyed with the vast fracturing in the church, and almost all of it is based on different interpretations of God's Word. We have translational issues with scripture, and if we're honest, the seminaries have been poised as well. On top of that is a very pervasive attitude that if someone hasn't "been to seminary" that they are uneducated and can't possibly understand the Word of God. I'm used to being brushed off as "uneducated", and if anyone chooses to do so here, that's fine.
My theory takes the following liberties:
- It takes a post tribulation rapture viewpoint
- It assumes that the devil has spent 6000 years working towards this time, and for the past 2000 years has been focusing heavily on distorting the Word of God specifically to bring the church to the fractured state where it is today.
- It assumes also that much like the pharisees of Jesus' day, we as a body are both completely convinced we know what is going to happen and how, and as a body are also completely wrong.
- It assumes a partially literal interpretation of prophecy based on the idea that the interpretation that John made of what he was shown was specifically directed by God to be ambiguous because to do otherwise would violate mans freedom of choice (If God gave everyone an exact road-map with times, dates, etc. freedom of choice would be violated because faith would no longer be part of the equation).
- Lastly, it assumes the position that only those who are watching and studying will understand and see what is going on. "..as in the days of Noah" where people were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage does not, in my opinion, evoke pictures of a world that has just been through the trumpets and bowls. Nor does the depiction of two people working in a field where one is taken, and one is left.
Theory
For many people, this will be very easy to just post "nope, because x scripture says...", which is fine. I'm used to that, but before going down that path, please take into consideration whether or not your reference is something that is contested as to it's interpretation. A perfect example of this is the pre-trib/post-trib rapture debate. I have seen people interpreting the same scriptures differently, and it's obvious that the evidence is pretty convincing for a lot of people, as there are thousands and thousands of Christians who believe one or the other. With that in mind, I would ask that people here strike from their arguments scripture that is heavily contested in it's interpretation.
I am looking, at this point, for logical issues, as that is the first place to start. An example of a bad theory where logic simply breaks the theory, were to be if I were claiming that the Abomination of Desolation had already happened (note: I am NOT posing this). It is easily broken as the third temple has not been built yet. Or if I were to claim that the Ezekiel 38 war had already happened (note: I am NOT posing this). It is easily debunked because it is very clear that no such thing has happened, because there has been no event where Israel has been defended by what can only be seen by Israel as an act of God that the nations would recognize as something He and only He could do.
The big catalyst for me in this theory was September 23rd, 2017, supplimented by August 21, 2017. While we know a lot about the great sign, there is a lot of confusion as to what it meant beyond just a random fulfillment of prophecy, which isn't really something God tends to do. When a prophecy is fulfilled, it usually has meaning beyond just fulfillment. There are numerous individuals using the "road-sign" parallel, claiming that something would happen one year after the sign, and now claiming something will happen 2 years after the sign, just as they will be claiming something will happen 3 years after the sign should nothing happen this year. However, outside these predictions, the meaning of the sign has been somewhat of an enigma. Unless it heralded the start of the tribulation, in which it would be a very appropriate way to bring such to the attention of believers. The eclipse on the 21st crossing over 7 cities/towns named "Salem" may not be anything to do with "peace", but perhaps a pointer to the current focus of the world being on Jerusalem, as prophecy said would happen.
Anyway, I'm open to learning of scripture that solidly contradicts this, but please note if you are going to reference scripture please be sure that there is a solid anchor to a timeline. I thought for some time that Daniel 9:27 referred to the beginning of a 7 year covenant, because I had been taught for decades that it meant the anti-Christ would make a covenant, when it actually says he will "confirm" a covenant, meaning that the covenant could already be in place.
Incidentally, it was August 22nd, 2017 that Jerrod Kushner went to the Middle East to garner the agreement of the Middle East nations to a peace plan. And while we don't have some national news headline claiming "Peace on Earth!" or even "Peace and Safety", he did, in fact, get an agreement from the nations to a peace plan that was not complete yet. An agreement that "yes, we want peace, and we will agree to a plan that you put together if it benefits all of us as you are stating it will". I'm not claiming Jerrod to be the anti-Christ, but he was there representing our President, who has on a number of occasions now, been elevated by the press to messiah status in regards to Israel (not to mention that a number of people here in the US, Christians and non-Christians both, idolize him).
Again, I realize this is way out of left field and quite the controversial view point, but while it may easily be shot down, I would ask that you take off your "pre-trib" glasses when taking this into consideration. I know of no better community to discuss this with, as while we may disagree on things, many here know how to study the Word.
In the end, this theory, just as any other rapture/end-times theory is of no consequence when compared to the importance of God's Grace and the need for people to believe and accept the gift that Jesus brought through His sacrifice.
