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Post by bobthewebguy on Jun 27, 2019 23:49:02 GMT -6
I have started a personal crusade against dreams and visions.
Here's why... "To all of you false prophets: Jeremiah 23:26
I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
"
If all you dreams and vision people (D&V) take a verse or two out of the bible to promote your silliness, then I too will take a verse out of the bible to refute you all.
But, lets be helpful. Help me to understand.. How exactly do you tell the difference between a God inspired dream and your own dream? What's the formula here?
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Post by mike on Jun 28, 2019 5:09:08 GMT -6
Bob, this is a question I have too, yet no different than when someone says "God told me..." or "the Lord said...to me"
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Post by stormyknight on Jun 28, 2019 5:34:31 GMT -6
That's a very good question, bobthewebguy , I've wondered that myself. I know in my own experience when God has worked with me. Can I prove it? No. I border on envy of those who have dreams and visions as I so want to 'hear' from God. I've only had one dream that I believe God let me experience, but it wasn't prophetic or anything like that, just an experience. You have stated that God has given you the gift of discernment. I feel as though that is one thing He has given me also along with a strong faith that was dramatically increased by certain persons in this forum. I think many of God's children have this. But, brother, please be careful in inserting opinion alongside discernment. To come here and strongly proclaim that you know some truth or other and then chide others for what you think is silly is not the character of the Holy Spirit.
"There are different gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different ministries, but the same Lord. There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines." 1 Cor. 12:4-11 I have been on the internet since the download rate was measured in baud. And I have been on message boards and forums almost as long and I have never, NEVER!, found a forum as loving and understanding and knowledgeable and kind as this one. That, to me, says that Jesus is here as well. He watches over and guides everyone here. Our Lord and Savior is among us. Let that sink in! Having said that, I want you to know I know what you mean. One has to be discerning of what one reads and watches on the internet. There are a lot of false prophets and teachers out there. Jesus said there would be. But if we pray for wisdom, He answers and teaches us. I feel similar to you about Emmanuel Macron. He definitely fits the criteria. More so every day. It might be good to know who the AC is, but it matters not. God will either take us up to Himself and protect us or it is for us(individually) to die defending our faith. We don't know exactly what path is before us, but by faith we are free. We are under no man's thumb. I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you on how to tell the difference between a God inspired dream and your own other than >you< just know. I think our Heavenly Father makes sure you know it is from Him. Whether others will believe you is another matter. If the Holy Spirit prompts you to prophecy, I think the Holy Spirit will also inspire others to believe you. It's all in God's hands.
May our Heavenly Father give you peace and wisdom. I pray He helps you find your answers and by them strengthens your faith a hundredfold in Jesus' Holy and Righteous Name.
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Post by Dave W. on Jun 28, 2019 6:08:13 GMT -6
I have started a personal crusade against dreams and visions. Here's why... "To all of you false prophets: Jeremiah 23:26 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. " If all you dreams and vision people (D&V) take a verse or two out of the bible to promote your silliness, then I too will take a verse out of the bible to refute you all. But, lets be helpful. Help me to understand.. How exactly do you tell the difference between a God inspired dream and your own dream? What's the formula here? This woman on another forum told a story about a dream she had. She was out in her driveway with her husband, her cousin and a friend and fireballs started coming from the sky it was really dark and cloudy and then I see this strange little glow come out of the sky (I remember thinking how is tinker bell going to save us lol) but as the glow got closer it got bigger and it was and Angel in armor with a sword just hovering over my garage. I asked him who he was and he told me he was Gabriel and the he would protect us. He started deflecting the fireballs away from our house and we was saved and protected but a lot of the other houses got burned. What does this mean? I was healed last year on October 1st and I have been hearing, seeing and dreaming things ever since. I told her that it means i'll be coming over to her house. www.christianforums.com/threads/dream-of-archangel-gabriel.8094217/#post-73479926Am i logged-in? That's spooky. |
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Post by Natalie on Jun 28, 2019 7:37:45 GMT -6
I think one way to know if it is from God is if there is a clear message. I know of a guy who had a very realistic dream of being in Japan and there was a tsunami. He was on vacation with his family, told them about the dream, and then went downstairs to the hotel lobby where the news was on. Guess what was on the news...The nine something earthquake in Japan and resulting tsunami. Was his dream from God?
I know of another guy who saw or heard "Nigel" and about a week later Nigel Farage's party won the election. Coincidence?
I think where I am cautious about people who have dreams and visions is when they are not specific. There's no way to test the dream or vision. But I believe God can work in that way. |
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Post by bobthewebguy on Jun 28, 2019 10:05:11 GMT -6
Let me explain what happened to me.. I was talking to this co worker in the parking lot about this ministry he belonged to. He continued on for about 10 min about this dreams and visions stuff. I felt prompted from the Holy Spirit to interrupt him and speak my piece. He gave me a website to look up. Here's what I found. Dozens and dozens of like minded churches and ministries all involved in D&V funneling into this Mother church. Well, guess what I also found on the site? Remember the last election? The one where Republicans got whacked?
Well, guess what? The leaders of some of these churches all prophesied that the Republicans would win in a landslide. Here was their explanation: We are not perfect. We sometimes get it wrong. And if we get it wrong, well, that doesn't mean that we are false prophets. We're human and we do the best we can. From that moment on, I decided to start a crusade against Dreams and visions and healings and tongues and all other experiences.
here is a perfect explanation of their false ministry: To all of you false prophets: Jeremiah 23:26
I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
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Post by mike on Jun 28, 2019 13:47:45 GMT -6
bobthewebguy discernment is the key brother. Not everyone who thinks they hear God has malice at heart, although its very likely some do. If Natalie came to me and said "Mike I heard the Lord say....." I would not in turn call her a false prophet, because I have seen her heart towards the Lord and His people and know she is not malicious. Make sense? Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
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Post by cwood85 on Jun 28, 2019 21:41:25 GMT -6
I think this is something that really depends on the individual and their heart towards the Lord. Is Gods character and face being sought after or is something trying to be proven by the individual? Are personal idols or trying to figure out Gods plan of action the focus of the heart? I believe this and also in reference to many other categories, that the heart is the issue in hearing God.
How do you know for sure? How does anyone know for sure? There certainly are a lot of people like you said, who say God told me or similar. Other than the dreamer and maybe not even them, will know for sure unless our heart is in it for the right reasons. But this is why things should be asked in the spirit. What does that mean? Seek the things of God and not of man, not of the flesh or it’s desires.
But look at Daniel and the things he dreamt of. If someone came to most anyone today and said they saw those things in a dream, they would more than likely be called a loony bin!
However I am a dreamer who has dreamed some very strange dreams. Some have been of things I never even knew existed until discovering it later on. A few of these discoveries have been startling at times and disturbing. Some have been biblical related and some I have stared Jesus in the face and we have interacted in various ways. If I dream of Jesus he never talks though, usually smiles or looks off in a specific direction. The ones of Jesus are very rare and I find myself utterly disappointed when they are over wishing so badly to return to them.
The most recent one was at a point where I was very unsure and frustrated with myself and my walk in the Lord. This has been going on for several months and didn’t know which direction to go. One night as I relaxed to the point of almost being completely asleep, I found myself in a dream type experience, although VERY vivid as in all 5 senses are experienced and I am aware I am dreaming or at least not awake in reality if that isn’t weird enough lol. Sitting in front of me is Jesus, but not in the typical way he is normally portrayed. He was younger looking like in his 20’s, very relaxed and sitting on the ground in what looked like a barely or wheat field. The bugs were buzzing, a light and hazy warm breeze was blowing in the shining sun, the sky a beautiful deep blue with wisp of white fluffy clouds dotted within eyesight. I could feel the warm all over.
He was wearing woven tan tunic with a hood and light linen under shirt or garments. They were plain, a little worn on the edges, especially around the arm cuffs and the sewing and seams were quite visible. I am sitting in front of him and in my dream I can feel myself smiling and it felt like from ear to ear. He is chewing on something and it sounds a bit crunchy. I wonder what he is eating and he reaches down in front of him and pulls up the brightest red apple I have ever seen. It was so red it seemed to glow from the sunlight glistening off of it. He reached out and handed it to me. I took a bite and it was the juiciest sweetest apple I had ever tasted and handed it back to him. The juice ran down my chin and then he looked off to the side to my left/his right. I was still smiling and thought how silly I probably looked with all this apple juice dripping from my chin. I reached up to wipe it away and that was when I woke up, sitting in the edge of my bed with my hand on my chin. after thinking to myself how interesting THAT was I quickly laid down on my pillow hoping to pick up where the dream left off. I didn’t remember any other dreams from that night in the morning.
Did I 100% dream this all on my own accord? Did my brain make all of it up as I drifted off to sleep to the point that I moved in my sleep and sat back up and acted out physically some of my dream? Maybe, as our brains can do some pretty amazing things and it is basically the computer drive that makes us go. BUT who designed that brain and put it in our heads? Whose is the head programmer of us? Whose image are we created in? Whose very breath of life do we breath in and out millions of times throughout our lives? Where does our consciousness come from or our imagination and even the ability to have a internal voice and have the ability to be creative? Our father, and He can speak or guide us in the way that he knows will work best for each and every one of us. I am very visual and do not take to subtle hints whatsoever and I believe God knows and understands this. I didn’t figure the dream our out right away, but when I did I laughed because it was so simple and I am so oblivious sometimes. Who knows maybe God had a chuckle at me to! What I gathered from the dream was- share the fruit 🍎! Or I could just be a looney who needs to up my meds 😉
God reaches all of us in different ways and over many hundreds of years I feel like this has been downplayed tremendously. We look to our own formulas and understanding to really make sure we can prove what the dream was or what understanding or message is being presented. This isn’t directed at anyone here and is a general comment. If in doubt about it, ask Him and look to scriptures. Things happen in His time and ways, not ours 💓💗
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Post by boraddict on Jun 28, 2019 22:43:15 GMT -6
I suppose the answer is in the purpose of the dream. That is, if the dream is given to a prophet like in the case of Joseph of Egypt or Daniel via Nebuchadnezzar, then the dream is for God's people at that time and perhaps for God's people in the latter days. Secondly, if the dream is of the prophet themselves then it may likewise have a similar type of representation and some of these are given in the OT and NT. These prophets recognized that the dreams were of God because they were spiritually in tune to recognize it as such. That is, they recognized the interpretation of the dream and the message thereof.
Likewise, we having our own personal dreams must be in tune with God to recognize the interpretation and the message for those dreams wherein a message is given. These personal messages are not meant for the general population like those of the prophets, but for ourselves. So who are the prophets? They are in the OT and the apostles are in the NT. The apostles are simply prophets having the personal witness of Christ living upon this earth. So, when we have a dream that is a personal message from God then it has a specific meaning to us and is not necessarily meant for others.
However, if we choose to share the message with others then no harm no foul. But they will not gain as much from the dream as the one to whom the message was intended. The problem comes in when we begin to believe that our personal dream from God was meant for others as in the case of the prophets. Big mistake because we are not prophets.
So there it is; a God inspired dream is personal revelation from God and we know the meaning thereof (I assume for most cases), and a normal dream that is the result of brain processes is simply working at the daily functions as it is supposed to do.
Thus, anyone having a God inspired dream will know it and many who have these begin to believe that the message was meant for the masses, and that is where they error.
I have had visions and dreams with messages from God and I am not alone in this kind of experience. In fact, everyone should be having their own personal experiences with God on some level.
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Post by sawdy on Jun 28, 2019 22:45:13 GMT -6
There really is no "formula" for knowing the difference. There just, plain and simple, is a difference.
If I could personally dream about rapture related dreams every night I totally would. But they don't come. If I could repeatedly dream the dream that I had where I was flying along with Jesus and leaving my home behind again to go with him, I would in a heartbeat!
I don't get to choose my dreams. But I can say that my discernment and discretion in my dreaming is on high alert. More than 99% of my dreaming is what I would say is uninfluenced. But that 1% of dreaming is influenced.
I have shared a few of my dreams in a different thread. Nothing in my dreams has given me any dates or much in the way of specifics that I can ascertain a rapture date. You would probably ask why I then believe them to be from God and not elsewhere. There is a feeling as dreams are all feelings for me. A feeling of complete peace and a progression of sequences that doesn't follow what a normal dream path would. The dream will end with me remembering it. I dream so much and so easily forget them. The ones that I believe are from God I don't forget. They are vivid in a way that makes the other normal dreams dull in comparison.
I don't claim to predict anything with my dreams. I regularly have deja vu as well but not in anyway that I can claim that I can do anything useful to help others with that gift. I just use it as knowing that I am on the path God has laid out for me and to keep attuned to that situation. Most of my deja vu belongs to moments that bring me joy and encouragement in my walk with the Lord.
Can a dream be influenced but not by God? Most certainly yes! How can I tell the difference? Could there be a masquerading dream appearing to be from God? I believe it could be possible, and that is why discernment is important. I have had a vivid dream about watching an accident on a bridge, but I didn't feel that it was from God although there was nothing overtly evil about it. So I haven't written it down or chosen to share it.
I have also had an evil spirit or possibly Satan visit and converse with me in a dream. I could feel the presence of evil in that dream and it was about trying to get me to renounce my faith and walk with Jesus that I have chosen. That one was definitely not from God.
The dream world is easy to be influenced by demonic spirits. Spirits of lust can attack me regularly if my guard isn't up. Things I would never want to dream about can pop up in my dreams. Songs that I haven't listened to can be playing like on the radio in my dream where I can hear every lyric as it would be said. Music is a big influencer to dreams. I choose to avoid listening to secular music as much as I possibly can (I don't go grocery shop with ear muffs, but sometimes wish I could get away with it without looking stupid) to keep that influence down. I also keep mind on what I watch or see as that can reappear if my dreams become under influence in a bad way. I also avoid alcohol and any substances or situations that may allow my to allow a spirit to take up inside me. I don't wish to be a conduit that then influences my thoughts and behavior. The hair salon I frequent is run by people who are very new age and I spend my entire time tanning once to twice a week praying and rebuking spirits that may be in the building as my brother lives in the basement of that building. So I pray for protection for my brother and pray that that protection is for the entire building.
I am happy that you seek to arm and equip others with discernment, that is truly a gift to be able to do so. I believe that most don't hear from others about their gifts to dream because I think that most are reluctant to share. I know that I am reluctant to share my dreams and have only confided in two people in person regarding them and neither was my Pastor or elder. I have received good dream advice from my one friend regarding my last dream and am waiting on the Lord to bring any additional clarity to the information he shared with me if He so chooses to do so.
I don't believe it is our job as believers to get up in arms to rebuke or chastise each other on gifts we don't necessarily understand. So I would please ask of you to not become combative towards me as I definitely have a differing opinion regarding dreams that of the one that you hold. I have answered your question to the best of my ability, however I don't believe that you really wanted an answer, but were just looking for an opportunity to lump all dreamers and all dreams into one broad group. I have been an active member on this forum for almost two years and have learned a lot since joining. I don't post as often as I used to, but enjoy coming here daily to read and to learn from those with gifts to discern, to understand, to teach, to share, to equip, to love, to show humility, respect, or grace or humor. This forum has become like my church family, albeit more so as I tend to share more here than I ever do with my church as I am their employee (church secretary).
Sweet dreams. 🙂
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Post by bobthewebguy on Jun 29, 2019 22:31:04 GMT -6
The problem is Mike, that God does not leave things up in the air.... These people that you are referring to are not doing anything in malice; they are just DECEIVED. He clearly says that He uses His WORD to teach us and lead us. And that we can hear the voice of God. " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" But, I am 100% against Dreams and visions. Dreams and visions are prophetic. They were used to tell the future. TO prophecy. No one today can tell the future with 100% accuracy. And I am still waiting for someone to tell me a dream or a vision that they or anyone has ever had that came true and they can prove it. I asked Steve Quayle about his dream and vision. He told me that the East coast was going to be cold and that the west coast was going to see fires. (Are you shaking your head like I did when I heard that?) And this is about the same as all dreams and visions. Nothing ever specific. Dreams and visions are for experience addicted churches. Churches that thrive on exciting experiences that have nothing to do with spiritual growth. And just between you and I........ This is exactly why God has given some people the gift of discernment. Some one needs to point out all of this false stuff that goes on today in the body of Christ. And God has given me the gift to see right through all of this stuff. And it's not from God. Period.
Oh and Sawdy, I think your post proves my point. Look at all of the different and confusing things you experienced in your dreams. I mean you covered from a to z. From Heaven to Hell and from God and the Devil. That is not the way my God works. He is precise and perfect and doesn't leave any room for confusion. And I'm sure your "feelings' are the same with every other dream and visions participant.
I'm a independent Baptist believer and have never ever spoken to any church member in 40 years (hundreds of members) that has had a dream or a vision. It's just not encouraged in our church. It's only encouraged in churches that accept "experiences" as important as the KJV bible.
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Post by sawdy on Jun 30, 2019 8:25:42 GMT -6
Sawdy, I think your post proves my point. Look at all of the different and confusing things you experienced in your dreams. I never said my dreams have confused me. In my dreams, the things that happen flow seamlessly and perfect. It is when I try to put the images and emotions in my head into words that I might not be using the right translation. Perhaps if inasmuch ye couldst be a wee tad forgiving; minest elocutional translational abilities mayest be hampered. I shared the gambit of my dreams as I didnt want to suggest that all my dreams are always from the Lord. But it is very easy to tell the difference. Can you please explain. Acts 2:17? I am confused on why God would pour out his Spirit. And why would he mention dreams and visions if he doesn't mean dreams and visions? I even took the time to check the translation provided in the KJV- it mentioned dreams and visions too! If I am not part of this time mentioned, then please explain to me where my dreams are coming from as you have an extensive base of knowledge with your 40+ years of experience in walking with the Lord. I am yet to reach my 40th birthday, so I must be just a babe in Christ. . There is the Word and then there is other communication from the Lord. I don't preach on my dreams or what I've heard God speak to me. Those are messages for me. I can't comment as to if my dream experience of feelings are the same as anyone else's. I am not them. I don't feel that this thread you started has the correct title. I think you may be potentially missing a [don't] in front of the Help. If I am mistaken, I apologize. Please help me to understand how I can help you to understand. |
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Post by boraddict on Jun 30, 2019 8:53:17 GMT -6
The Lord communicates with people through dreams and proof to that fact is in scripture to wit:
Matt. 2:13, (KJV) And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
God can use dreams to provide knowledge about future events as evidenced via Matt. 2:13 above. Thus, God can tell the future with 100% accuracy if he chooses to do so.
I think the greater problem is in discerning which dreams are from, or, not from God, and how accurately the information of the dream has been communicated to others. Thus, for the dreams that are from God, the transfer of information from God to his subject (the one having the dream) is 100% accurate; however, the recollection of the dream and the skill of the individual to share that dream is probably less than 100% accurate. Thus, if the individual is a prophet then God will give the dreamer the ability to recall and share the dream with complete accuracy. However, our prophets are in the OT and NT speaking to us from the dust. As a result, dreams as a prophetic tool for the masses are in scripture only. So I am with you on that point. Yet, dreams as a personal tool from God to the individual are 100% accurate although limited by God from being prophetic for the masses.
So in my opinion while your overall position that dreams today are not 100% accurate is in error (as referenced above); the greater meaning of your statement is correct that prophetic dreams for the masses are in scripture only.
So discounting the dreams that are not from God, there are two types: those for the masses from a prophet, and those for the individual. Since our prophets are in the Bible then only the second type of dream exists today and they from God to the individual and 100% accurate, but break down in the transfer from the individual to the masses because these dreams are personal only.
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Post by mike on Jun 30, 2019 9:33:47 GMT -6
I have a question on this thread. Are we discussing dreams & visions only and is "God spoke to me" included in this. To me they are one in the same. Can someone explain the difference to me if there is one please. EDIT - thanks boraddict for the immediate below reply. I suppose I should have addressed my comment to Bob as he began the thread. My understanding of Dreams & Visions is that they do occur while in trance like states at least from what I read in the bible. some of the visions had are given by God to the ungodly as well. Again my note is to better understand the purpose of this thread |
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Post by boraddict on Jun 30, 2019 13:04:48 GMT -6
I have a question on this thread. Are we discussing dreams & visions only and is "God spoke to me" included in this. To me they are one in the same. Can someone explain the difference to me if there is one please. I thought we were talking about dreams and visionary dreams that take place while sleeping in contrast to dreams resulting from the normal brain processes that occur while sleeping. There must be a multitude of other communication categories like promptings, inspirations, etc. that occur while awake. Perhaps they are all one and the same with some taking place while sleeping and others while awake. I thought we were talking about those that occur while sleeping. It would be interesting to identify that they were all the same thing, awake or sleeping. Something like an inspiration from God while awake applies on the conscious mind and an inspiration from God while asleep applies on the conscious mind but then the brain functions during the sleep process' interfere causing a distortion and a skewed memory of the message. Thus, brain activity of the normal sleep cycles distort the inspiration from God. That is, unless the inspiration occurs moments before or right at the point of becoming awake. However, when the brain processes the events of the previous day occur in the dream cycle, and then an inspiration from God occurs at the same time, then you might get the horse you were riding on (the previous day) having a crown of gold (message from God). It is for that reason that dreams are personal and complex and only the dreamer can separate God's message from the body of the dream. However, visionary experiences while awake would be the crown jewel category. I have never had one of those but they are recorded in scripture. For example, The Book of Revelation as literally given (?). |
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