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Post by yardstick on Mar 7, 2019 15:09:12 GMT -6
You decide; but in either case, a most compelling hypothesis, posted by david in the shoutbox: |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 7, 2019 16:30:03 GMT -6
Interesting video. I have heard of the concept of two Messiah's...one a son of Joseph and one a son of David, and that they did not understand that Jesus fulfills the prophecies for both. However, I did not know the explanation of these two from the Jewish viewpoint. Am I right that they see the one coming as a military leader, he is killed, and then the other comes forward? It doesn't sound like they are both on the scene at the same time.
ETA: I was reading the comments on the video and now understand. The first is killed and then resurrected. I was thinking resurrected at the end of the "week" because that's what the guy was seeming to say- that Messiah ben Yosef would be the first to be resurrected. But instead maybe it is the middle, the mortal wound that he survives.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 7, 2019 17:09:19 GMT -6
I'm sorry but I was not able to watch the video all the way through. I know that I should and will try again.
What do they infer by the use of the word "messiah?" Are they saying that there are two Christs?
2nd attempt;
He states that a messiah is a person doing a God ordained function (8.38). So according to that definition Moses was a messiah as was Noah, all the prophets, etc.
According to the video, of these two latter day messiahs one comes riding upon the clouds and one comes riding upon an ass (7.04).
Okay, so in the video he states that one messiah dies in battle (6:30, 9:30, 11.15, 14.19).
The information on the video was derived from the writings of the Rabbi's (14.04) as well as the Torah and the prophets. Although not mentioned in the video, these Rabbinical writings provide "takanot" meaning that they are the basis of Rabbinical laws binding upon God. Thus, like in the days of the Savior as stated in the Gospels, these latter day Pharisees have defined the course of events and these events will happen as they instruct (false doctrine). Might I say that this doctrine is like the doctrine whereby the Savior was murdered. Thus, history will repeat itself in the murdering of the two prophets as stated in Revelation 11:7. That is, in my opinion the Rabbinical writings were the cause of the Savior's murder and the Rabbinical writings will be the cause of the two witnesses' murder.
This video in my opinion is entirely false doctrine.
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Post by mike on Mar 7, 2019 17:38:52 GMT -6
Ok so this sounds like the Islamic countries will also accept this. This info from wiki doesn't specify what order these all appear
In most traditions, the Mahdi will arrive with 'Isa (Jesus) to defeat Al-Masih ad-Dajjal (literally "the false Messiah", or Antichrist).[6] Although the concept of a Mahdi is not an essential doctrine in Sunni Islam, it is popular among both Sunni and Shia Muslims.[7] Both agree that he will rule over the Muslims and establish justice; however, they differ extensively on his attributes and status.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 7, 2019 19:28:25 GMT -6
I watched the video, it paralells the article from BreakingNewsIsrael where they (scholarly rabbis of reputation or credentials) are talking about a "spiritual' based interpretation of the coming Messiah. It is the Koballah that seems responsible for this "interpretation" of the attributes of the messiah (s), but the hebrewan expert staunchly stating that the messiah is flesh and bone, HUMAN, not God-incarnate, in the video stating this several times "make no mistake" this person is a real human, THAT is what bothers me. NOTHING of either of these two messiahs from the video suggests that it is God coming in Flesh form the rabbis are teaching..note that, please please please.
I read about 50 of the comments. This lead to me asking for those more educated to bring a teaching of the difference of the Talmud verses Torah. History of it all would be great... It seems to me the comments are warning that the jews are following a doctrine of tradition that is not the Word of God, so it is almost two-fold: they have not God because of the denial of Christ (1 John) and they are gleaning their "watching" based on human-made doctrine. It is as earie as the likes of the Book of Mormon or WatchTower...you get my drift here?
Nat, you said this:
No where in the video is the Hebrew guy talking a about a 7 year period of these two messiah figures. I never heard anywhere where the Hebrew scholar says, oh yeah this is part of the Danial 70th week and this guy will have this happen here or there... did I miss something?
Has anyone who knows personally a person practicing the jewish faith, asked that person what they think of Daniel 9? From what I am finding out, no one of jewish practice is allowed to read Isaiah 53. Is this true? So again, I would love to know how they (jewish religious scholar) feel about Daniel 9, particularly from verse 24 onward...
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Post by mike on Mar 7, 2019 20:04:42 GMT -6
Babs, If the Torah, Talmud relationship we're represented in miles, I understand about 1/32 of an inch of that mile. Talmud was supposedly the oral Torah, written down. Allegedly Moses and the elders spoke the oral Torah and those "traditions" were passed generation to generation then written down around 700 bc. Read a few things in the Talmud, like the part that says to have sex with children then read some of the red letters and apply that despicable practice and thoughts to why Jesus was always so angry with the Pharasees and Saducees (angry or righteously angry or another term, you pick)  Look this up though, please. I'm going by some dated memories I had much interaction as my former sister in law and her ex husband we're full blown Labovitch. This is basically Hasidic with Khabbalah, very mystical, creepy. When they had the match maker pair them up for marriage, they consulted the dead Rebbe Schneerson. They went to his grave to obtain approval. When I questioned what exactly went down, like did he appear in spirit form, I never got a straight answer. I had a couple conversations with my former bro in law. They were interesting cuz I knew more about the Torah and more importantly Tenach than he did. So at times he enjoyed the conversation, but when I showed how certain areas point to Jesus, he began to treat me like the Goyim I am. Yup look that up too! The Jews that practice like that hate us gentiles very deeply. It's in the Talmud! So when we talk about Isaiah or Daniel we didn't get very far. And lastly the Talmud does say something like "if you read Dan 9:24-27, you are cursed by Hashem" so they won't read it. When I am in front of the computer I'll come back to this (tomorrow) to see what I can locate and see if anything I find jars any memories, like the engagement party or weddings. Oy Vey! EDIT - very great read on the timeline of Daniel 9 and 70 weeks from a Rabbi who appears to believe. I read this over a year ago. www.torahclass.com/archived-articles/411-daniel-924-27-daniel-and-the-messiah-part-1-by-rabbi-baruch |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 7, 2019 20:37:48 GMT -6
Nat, you said this: No where in the video is the Hebrew guy talking a about a 7 year period of these two messiah figures. I never heard anywhere where the Hebrew scholar says, oh yeah this is part of the Danial 70th week and this guy will have this happen here or there... did I miss something? No, he didn't mention a time period. You didn't miss it. It was simply me trying to figure out if the two he was talking about could be the AC and FP and how that fit with my understanding. He said the one would die fighting and be resurrected by the second. First I thought that would be the resurrection after the 70th week because he said they would then lead the rest to Jerusalem. (I think that is where he said they would go- I can't remember the verse he quoted). I was thinking - end of 70th week and Jesus goes to Jerusalem. But, then I also considered the AC surviving a mortal wound, and that's not at the end. I was just trying to understand if their two messiahs are on the scene at the same time or one after another and how that aligns with what we know about end times stuff. Does that clarify things? |
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Post by yardstick on Mar 8, 2019 0:23:36 GMT -6
What is presented in the video: 1. The jewish perspective is that there are two messiahs. 2. The two messiahs are both jewish: the first from the tribe of Ephraim - a 'son of Joseph'; and the second from the tribe of Judah - a 'son of David'. 3. The first 'messiah' is killed in battle, and the second 'messiah' resurrects the first. No timeline is given for the events described by the commentator in the video. The Youtube OP has drawn the conclusion that the two Messiahs referred to by the commentator, are the AC and FP. Based on these, boraddict -I agree with your summation that it is a false doctrine, but I am unsure if you were referring to it being a jewish false doctrine, or a christian false doctrine. If jewish, and in light of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, aren't all jewish doctrines now null and void? Regarding the 'definition of messiah'; it is given in the video as: anyone who does work God has ordained to a specific purpose; whether that purpose be the judgement on others, or their salvation. mike : I cant comment yet on how much the Mahdi stuff ties into this. It might not tie in at all (if the mahdi stuff really IS a false prophecy)... Also, can you clarify what a 'Hashem' is? barbiosheepgirl - don't let it bother you that the 'messiahs' described in the video - specifically the first one, is only a (flesh and blood) human. If the YT OP is correct in his surmising: the AC WILL BE all human (at least to begin with). I am pretty sure that the jewish understanding of two messiahs has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at worst, and if there is a connection, Jesus would most likely be the second 'messiah' of the pair. |
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Post by fitz on Mar 8, 2019 5:35:51 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Mar 8, 2019 7:04:44 GMT -6
Thanks Fitz, yes because His name is so Holy, they won't say His name or spell it. Ever notice "L-rd" or "G-d". rather than refer to Him as YHWH they use Ha-Shem (the name) like a nickname almost. Similar to how we hear or see Yeshua Ha-Meshioch "the Messiah"
Stick - as for the "Mahdi" I find it interesting that the Jews are expecting the first messiah to come now. In the video there was a quick screen that said something like "Please set their timing aside I want you to see what they're expecting" and such we should also consider what the Muslims are expecting. We know the truth of what's coming. It may be a bit foggy as to specific timing and there are some possibilities about how things play out in precision but we are not asleep! Those who are expecting the Mahdi or the two messiahs will have their fulfillment most likely in the form of the false prophet and anti-christ.
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Post by mike on Mar 8, 2019 7:34:14 GMT -6
Something else regarding the video. Watching/listening to the ideology of the rabbi and those following this path, it is clear to me how they missed the day of their visitation!
1. they expected a different savior 2000 years ago. Based on the erroneous teachings of the Talmud it has always been expected that the messiah would lead Israel in military/political victory over their enemies. Most of us are pretty familiar with this concept.
2. Isaiah 53 - I have been told by extremist Jews that the suffering servant is Israel. God's people suffered all throughout history with periods of great blessing in between where messianic types are seen, Joseph, David and so on.
3. this rabbi purports 2 messiahs because of the error of the commentary in the Talmud and Midrash. Not two appearances but two separate messiahs. You get that? the issues in interpretation and missing the visitation. He came, not as they expected and missed Him!
this is why the book of Revelation is written to the Jews! Chapter 13 is their warning, but they will miss this as well since they disregard the NT that is until this figure shows his true self, revealing who he really is.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 8, 2019 7:38:06 GMT -6
What is presented in the video: 1. The jewish perspective is that there are two messiahs. 2. The two messiahs are both jewish: the first from the tribe of Ephraim - a 'son of Joseph'; and the second from the tribe of Judah - a 'son of David'. 3. The first 'messiah' is killed in battle, and the second 'messiah' resurrects the first. No timeline is given for the events described by the commentator in the video. The Youtube OP has drawn the conclusion that the two Messiahs referred to by the commentator, are the AC and FP. Based on these, boraddict -I agree with your summation that it is a false doctrine, but I am unsure if you were referring to it being a jewish false doctrine, or a christian false doctrine. If jewish, and in light of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, aren't all jewish doctrines now null and void? Regarding the 'definition of messiah'; it is given in the video as: anyone who does work God has ordained to a specific purpose; whether that purpose be the judgement on others, or their salvation. mike : I cant comment yet on how much the Mahdi stuff ties into this. It might not tie in at all (if the mahdi stuff really IS a false prophecy)... Also, can you clarify what a 'Hashem' is? barbiosheepgirl - don't let it bother you that the 'messiahs' described in the video - specifically the first one, is only a (flesh and blood) human. If the YT OP is correct in his surmising: the AC WILL BE all human (at least to begin with). I am pretty sure that the jewish understanding of two messiahs has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at worst, and if there is a connection, Jesus would most likely be the second 'messiah' of the pair. Thank you yardstick, I did not know that this Jewish doctrine of two messiahs existed and they are clearly mixing things together to arrive at this conclusion. If we apply their definition of messiah to our belief system, then we can also say that we have two latter day messiahs that are the two witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11. However, the Jewish doctrine from the video contrives to include the Christ as one of their two messiahs and this is the false doctrine to which I was referring among other things. Thank you for reminding me that all Jewish doctrines are null and void. I would like to mention that I do believe in a latter day Son of David that is not Lord Jesus but John who wrote the BoR. However, the doctrine of the video teaches that their messiah is purely secular whereas I do not believe that John is secular but a teacher of Lord Jesus as one of the two witnesses (Chapter 11). Your item number 2 states that both the two messiahs are Jewish. However, the messiah from Judah would be Jewish and the other from Ephraim would he an Ephraimite. For us the two witnesses are killed but not in battle and they both are resurrected by God (Rev. 11:11). |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 8, 2019 8:26:59 GMT -6
Something else regarding the video. Watching/listening to the ideology of the rabbi and those following this path, it is clear to me how they missed the day of their visitation! 1. they expected a different savior 2000 years ago. Based on the erroneous teachings of the Talmud it has always been expected that the messiah would lead Israel in military/political victory over their enemies. Most of us are pretty familiar with this concept. 2. Isaiah 53 - I have been told by extremist Jews that the suffering servant is Israel. God's people suffered all throughout history with periods of great blessing in between where messianic types are seen, Joseph, David and so on. 3. this rabbi purports 2 messiahs because of the error of the commentary in the Talmud and Midrash. Not two appearances but two separate messiahs. You get that? the issues in interpretation and missing the visitation. He came, not as they expected and missed Him! this is why the book of Revelation is written to the Jews! Chapter 13 is their warning, but they will miss this as well since they disregard the NT that is until this figure shows his true self, revealing who he really is. It appears to me that the conspiracy against Lord Jesus 2,000 years ago is repeated as a conspiracy against our two witnesses (Rev. 11) as follows: To murder the Christ the Romans were employed to carry out the task. To murder the two witnesses the beast is employed (in my opinion) to carry out the task (Rev. 11:7). In both cases (in my opinion) the Pharisees caused the murders. They are so insistent in their interpretation that they reject the Savior twice via murder: once when they were watching for the Son of David 2,000 years ago, and now a second time while they are watching for the two messiahs. Thus, the murder of the Savior is repeated in the murder of the two witnesses as a type and shadow relationship. Because, the Pharisees will not accept two witnesses speaking on behalf of Lord Jesus. Thus, there are two latter day messiahs, but not as depicted in the video for they teach the gospel message to Judah in Jerusalem. The Pharisees do not want to hear that message. Additionally, that doctrine of the Pharisees is mixed as you have stated with Judah missing the day of their visitation, and they are going to miss it again. |
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Post by mike on Mar 8, 2019 8:48:49 GMT -6
boraddict said: Do you derive this viewpoint from this statement? John 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?
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blur
New Member
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Post by blur on Mar 8, 2019 9:46:59 GMT -6
What is presented in the video: 1. The jewish perspective is that there are two messiahs. 2. The two messiahs are both jewish: the first from the tribe of Ephraim - a 'son of Joseph'; and the second from the tribe of Judah - a 'son of David'. 3. The first 'messiah' is killed in battle, and the second 'messiah' resurrects the first. No timeline is given for the events described by the commentator in the video. The Youtube OP has drawn the conclusion that the two Messiahs referred to by the commentator, are the AC and FP. Based on these, boraddict -I agree with your summation that it is a false doctrine, but I am unsure if you were referring to it being a jewish false doctrine, or a christian false doctrine. If jewish, and in light of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, aren't all jewish doctrines now null and void? Regarding the 'definition of messiah'; it is given in the video as: anyone who does work God has ordained to a specific purpose; whether that purpose be the judgement on others, or their salvation. mike : I cant comment yet on how much the Mahdi stuff ties into this. It might not tie in at all (if the mahdi stuff really IS a false prophecy)... Also, can you clarify what a 'Hashem' is? barbiosheepgirl - don't let it bother you that the 'messiahs' described in the video - specifically the first one, is only a (flesh and blood) human. If the YT OP is correct in his surmising: the AC WILL BE all human (at least to begin with). I am pretty sure that the jewish understanding of two messiahs has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at worst, and if there is a connection, Jesus would most likely be the second 'messiah' of the pair. Thank you yardstick, I did not know that this Jewish doctrine of two messiahs existed and they are clearly mixing things together to arrive at this conclusion. If we apply their definition of messiah to our belief system, then we can also say that we have two latter day messiahs that are the two witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11. However, the Jewish doctrine from the video contrives to include the Christ as one of their two messiahs and this is the false doctrine to which I was referring among other things. Thank you for reminding me that all Jewish doctrines are null and void. I would like to mention that I do believe in a latter day Son of David that is not Lord Jesus but John who wrote the BoR. However, the doctrine of the video teaches that their messiah is purely secular whereas I do not believe that John is secular but a teacher of Lord Jesus as one of the two witnesses (Chapter 11). Your item number 2 states that both the two messiahs are Jewish. However, the messiah from Judah would be Jewish and the other from Ephraim would he an Ephraimite. For us the two witnesses are killed but not in battle and they both are resurrected by God (Rev. 11:11).
Yes, for Christians, the 2 witnesses are indeed the '2 anointed ones' (messiah just means anointed). The 2 witnesses are Zerubabbel & Joshua of Zech 3 & 4 of which they are explicitly called the 'anointed ones' in Zech 4:14.
The Hebrew name for 'Joshua' is the same as Jesus' name (Yeshua). The same in Hebrew, Joshua = Yeshua. That's why Joshua/ Jesus is called the 'branch' that will build the temple.
The new "Joshua" / 2nd witness is Jesus' 2nd coming. Zerubabbel (means out of Babylon/ so he is like a traitor to Satan/ Satan's Judas if you will) & new Jesus/ Joshua are the 2 witnesses.
The Jewish 'messiah ben David & messiah ben Joseph' are imitating the 2 witnesses (one of which is new Jesus). The beast from the sea & earth are imitating Zerubabbel & Joshua taking over the world/ Jesus' new kingdom of heaven.
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