|
|
Post by kjs on Sept 28, 2018 11:38:08 GMT -6
We read in Matthew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [θέλω] to gather your children together,
the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling [θέλω]. 38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39 “For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'”
Original Word: θέλω = a verb that means = I will, I wish, I desire, I want
The word Matthew used θέλω was used both as a word to describe God's Will as well as a word to describe Humans Will.
It should be clear to any reader that God’s will was thwarted by human will.
How do we know this?
The Lord God Himself said so!
Furthermore, He promised He would not return until the Jews asked Him to return.
So, we have an explicit statement from God that His return (Second Coming) was conditioned upon the Jews’ WILL.
We know EXACTLY when Jesus second coming will occur.
Jesus will return when every Jew on the earth says, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”
Also in Romans 11.26
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited:
A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.”
So there are basically two items I wish to point out (or focus on here)
1) God wishes all Humans to be saved
1 Tim 2:4 since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2) God has chosen to limit Himself to When the Second coming of Jesus will occur.
The Second point (in my mind) makes it very clear that Post Tribulation rapture is impossible -- because the "coming" is dependent upon the Jewish People.....
So back to the question in the Title ...
God is in control (He is Sovereign) -- however, He has made it clear He wishes Humans to have free will and therefore has chosen to allow human's free will to override He will... Including who will be saved.....
Just something to ponder.........
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Sept 28, 2018 16:35:50 GMT -6
Was His will actually thwarted? He knew they would reject Him even though He may have willed to gather them, but the OT says that Gentiles were part of the plan. So, by the Jews being unwilling they actually fulfill the will of God. (But I think I understand what you mean...He may will that none will perish, but some by their will choose to reject Him) He knows what I will choose to do this evening. He also knows what would have happened if I would have made a different choice. It's enough to keep a mind busy for a long time.  For more pondering, here is a quote from A W Tozer (The Knowledge of the Holy) God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man's will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so. |
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 29, 2018 4:47:25 GMT -6
Maybe these will help, he specifically addresses the Calvinistic idea of sovereignty (aka causal determinism) and where it comes from. The first video is the one you should watch, but then he goes into what the Bible teaches in the other two: Also, look into Alvin Plantinga's Free Will Defense here: BTW, AW Tozer is not someone I recommend, he was a man who taught Lordship Salvation before it was called Lordship Salvation. He flat-out rejected Salvation by grace alone through faith alone on Christ alone in the essay, I Call it Heresy. So you can guess his position on it. |
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Sept 29, 2018 6:27:17 GMT -6
The End is determined from the beginning."The end is determined by the beginning. Our salvation is secure to the end because our salvation was predestined in the very beginning to be completed. And we remember that Romans 8 makes a monumental and very clear statement to that regard. When in Romans 8 the apostle Paul writes, “For whom he foreknew, he predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son.” That is, all whom God predestined will become conformed to the image of his Son in eternal glory. And thus “whom he predestined he called, and whom he called he justified, and whom he justified these he also glorified.” And so, we said that the great undergirding foundational truth that secures our future is God’s decree in eternity past. It is the fact that we are chosen for final salvation that makes our salvation secure. - John MacArthur "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.This is from a 10 hour series by John MacArthur. This is from the segment "The Doctrine of election part 1": www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-273/the-doctrine-of-election-part-1It's an audio page with a feature that lets you read along with the transcript. It's a little finicky where the icons are and how to pause it once it gets going. But the text is highlighted as it's spoken by John. And you can click on a part of the text, and the audio will go to it. You guys can figure it out. It's good. I recommend it. I guess i'm a five point Calvinist. Maybe a five point hyper Calvinist. I was picked by the Father from BEFORE the foundation of the universe. I can't fall away from this faith. Nor do i think any of God's true People could. None that the Father has given to the Son can be snatched from His righteous right hand. "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
I and the Father are one.”I can't imagine going through this life without knowing and realizing these doctrines of grace. These are very powerful. The whole series is here: www.gty.org/library/topical-series-library/280Peaceful Sabbath.I recommend it.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 29, 2018 8:55:58 GMT -6
Dave
Question about your beliefs as I think in a post somewhere (if I remember correctly) you are a 5 pointer.
If God predestined some, what happens to those who don't get a choice?
How would you consider God to be just for those who were not chosen?
2 additional things
1. Please share your thoughts not Calvin's - if you feel it'll be too lengthy PM me
2. (Not directed at you Dave) I know this is KJ's thread so it's already moderated but whoever else chimes in please keep the replies to that of love between brothers and sisters. We are family regardless of views on this topic. Nothing will be settled until we are with Him and find out the truth about it 😁
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 29, 2018 9:52:43 GMT -6
Sorry KJ, minor hi-jack to my above post, 2nd condition ... We have to be open minded enough to think that in some way different views are possible. I say this as yesterday I was viewing a video where a scientist said that it were possible for the earth to be created on day 4 and the other stars created after, yet still be billions of light years away. 🤯
Mind officially blown! When he explained this in a way a guy like me could understand I was like wow! This explains the controversy. Both are correct in that God created just as Genesis explains but because I lacked the understanding of how space, time, mass and light are all tied together the stars could be that far away. I'll post that video elsehwere.
|
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 29, 2018 10:16:56 GMT -6
The End is determined from the beginning."The end is determined by the beginning. Our salvation is secure to the end because our salvation was predestined in the very beginning to be completed. And we remember that Romans 8 makes a monumental and very clear statement to that regard. When in Romans 8 the apostle Paul writes, “For whom he foreknew, he predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son.” That is, all whom God predestined will become conformed to the image of his Son in eternal glory. And thus “whom he predestined he called, and whom he called he justified, and whom he justified these he also glorified.” And so, we said that the great undergirding foundational truth that secures our future is God’s decree in eternity past. It is the fact that we are chosen for final salvation that makes our salvation secure. - John MacArthur "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.This is from a 10 hour series by John MacArthur. This is from the segment "The Doctrine of election part 1": www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-273/the-doctrine-of-election-part-1It's an audio page with a feature that lets you read along with the transcript. It's a little finicky where the icons are and how to pause it once it gets going. But the text is highlighted as it's spoken by John. And you can click on a part of the text, and the audio will go to it. You guys can figure it out. It's good. I recommend it. I guess i'm a five point Calvinist. Maybe a five point hyper Calvinist. I was picked by the Father from BEFORE the foundation of the universe. I can't fall away from this faith. Nor do i think any of God's true People could. None that the Father has given to the Son can be snatched from His righteous right hand. "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
I and the Father are one.”I can't imagine going through this life without knowing and realizing these doctrines of grace. These are very powerful. The whole series is here: www.gty.org/library/topical-series-library/280Peaceful Sabbath.I recommend it. John MacArthur is a false teacher. Read Romans 8 again, all of it, expecially the part before what you quoted: 8:19 Because, the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 8:20 Because, the creature was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 8:21 because, the creature itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 Because, we know that the entire creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 8:23 And not only they, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, that is the redemption of our body. You weren't chosen above everyone else for salvation. That's not Biblical "predestination". The Biblical concept is explained above - that those who believe are predestined to the redemption of the body. I highly recommend you put on your thick skin and watch this video: |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Sept 29, 2018 10:32:31 GMT -6
Was His will actually thwarted? He knew they would reject Him even though He may have willed to gather them, but the OT says that Gentiles were part of the plan. So, by the Jews being unwilling they actually fulfill the will of God. (But I think I understand what you mean...He may will that none will perish, but some by their will choose to reject Him) He knows what I will choose to do this evening. He also knows what would have happened if I would have made a different choice. It's enough to keep a mind busy for a long time. For more pondering, here is a quote from A W Tozer (The Knowledge of the Holy) God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man's will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so. I think that (God's will thwarted) portion aligns with God choosing to allow His will to be over-ruled....
Yes, many times God can/could "force" his will -- but He chooses to allow our will to play out....
|
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Sept 29, 2018 11:47:23 GMT -6
Dave Question about your beliefs as I think in a post somewhere (if I remember correctly) you are a 5 pointer. If God predestined some, what happens to those who don't get a choice? They are the vessels of destruction. Did God make them that way? Or was the father able to peer down through infinity past and see that they were not going to want to even meet Him a part of the way. "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?How would you consider God to be just for those who were not chosen? I think i know what you're thinking and how you feel about it. It's a sensitive subject. It sounds sad. I get the same feeling when i'm out in the crowd. I know that everyone is not going to make it. I know that everyone will not love the truth and that God will send them a strong delusion to believe the lie. I agree with you that we keep the replies to that of love between brothers and sisters. We are family regardless of views on this topic. Nothing will be settled until we are with Him and find out the truth about it. I wonder why they weren't chosen? God didn't have to choose anyone. Maybe He saw a flicker of hope in some. Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated "Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
I don't think this is as bad as i tend to make it sound. This is not my specialty. We assume these are innocent people. A member on another thread that i lost track of wrote a note about the idea that on judgement day most people when confronted with the truth would believe the Gospel and so be saved. I don't think they will. The gate is wide that leads to destruction and the defiant are defiant. The many will go there. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. This is a subject that has been debated longer than the rapture. Salvation is a big deal. It's too big for God to put into our hands. There's not going to be one single person lost by chance, or one single person saved by chance. It depends NOT on human will or exertion. "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16And that's the only thing i think makes a Calvinist sound bad. If i think God has picked His Elect from the foundation of the universe, i can just sit back and not worry about evangelizing too much and focus on eschatology. Did He send His Son to die for the whole world? For Hitler? For murderers? Or just for His Sheep who can hear his voice? I think if you pick one of those MacArthur audios and listen to him explain it you'll see it. And then you'll even find your own predestination examples scattered throughout the scriptures. "And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. If anyone has an ear, let him hear:
Names written BEFORE the foundation of the world, In the book of life. Worthy is the Lamb. PS: Another big question is, If i think i'm picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe to be drawn by the Holy Spirit into a belief in the Son, why am i sitting here observing the seventh day Sabbath if i think my salvation is set? Not because of works, But because of Him who calls. Peaceful Sabbath |
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Sept 29, 2018 12:41:29 GMT -6
There's a problem Dave, Romans 9 isn't about the salvation of individuals, it's about the situation with the Jews and the transfer of the New Covenant to us Gentiles. The "potter and the clay" line is a reference to Jeremiah 18: 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ” In other words, Paul is saying that the Jews, who refused (of their own free will) to accept God's plan are instead being refashioned for another use, which he details in Romans 11 (and it's also in Zechariah 12-14). The Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 is all about philosophical presuppositons and not looking at terms and concepts by how the Bible defines them. Again, put on your thick skin and watch: [/b] |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 29, 2018 13:23:54 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint Dave. Though I different in mine I respect that you have your interpretation.
Like you said it's been debated for longer than the rapture (maybe) and it will continue.
I will not press the issue here as I want to keep it peaceful
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Sept 29, 2018 14:18:25 GMT -6
2) God has chosen to limit Himself to When the Second coming of Jesus will occur.
The Second point (in my mind) makes it very clear that Post Tribulation rapture is impossible -- because the "coming" is dependent upon the Jewish People.....
I am not advocating a Post Trib rapture, but in regards to your statement above, I think it is possible. Joel 2 shows us the oncoming army about to destroy Jerusalem. In the same text, God says even now in the face of annihilation, turn to me. In the last 2 verses, it appears at least to me, that after the 6th seal is opened, we can still be saved. I don't think God limits himself to "when" Christ returns because he gives us the "when" many times. When people will be delivered. When people will be resurrected, everyone written in the book (Dan 12), when he sends his angels to gather his elect (Matt 24), when the great multitude from the 4 corners of the earth are gathered (Rev 7). There is a disagreement of the "when", but I don't see that negate a post Trib view as far as it pertaining to the rapture happening after the tribulation and not the rest of the ideas some that hold to that view believe. |
|
|
|
Post by disciple4life on Feb 10, 2020 21:19:06 GMT -6
Hello, kjs and other fellow watchmen. Just a couple things. KJS, I'm one of your fans and follow your posts. So im not challenging you, just sharing some thoughts. Can you give the verse that you mentioned "Christ won't return until the Jews ask him". There's a lot of passages i have read but just can't remember. Second- you said It's clear that God's plan was thwarted" This particular word implies that his plan was overthrown- his plan was hindered or altered with out his permission or power to do any thing. I doubt see this as the case at all. God allowed the Holocaust because of the fallen world but it broke his heart. It's like a parent who tells his child not to touch the candle or the heater. The child doesn't obey. The parent knows the child will be burned slightly- a shall blister, but a lifelong lesson on the concept of disobedience and discipline. The parents' plan was not thwarted. The issue here is The Openness of God". Scripture is filled with examples of God moving, responding to his peoples' prayers. Abraham negotiated with God re Sodom. The persistent widow, Satan dealing with God regarding Job, etc, etc etc. As my 4 point Calvinist pastor said "Real love always has to have the possibility that the person can refuse. The option to say No. Forced love by any other name is rape." He rejected the false doctrine of limited atonement- as did Calvin. ***KJS i don't think you are Calvinist- and I have many many brothers who are, but its to speak truth in love. Not even a single verse anywhere to support the perverse notion that Christ only died for some. "He gave lis life as a ransom for all." In the Original Greek, all means all.😉 Same exact word in the passage that says "all" have sinned". "He tasted death for every man. ". Nor is there an iota of a verse anywhere that says the free gift of God can't be refused. [ Irresistible Grace] Then we need to be very aware and conscious of the strong correlation between Calvinism and Replacement Theology. It's one of the heresies of the last days. Peter and Judas were both listed as apostles. Both chosen as part of the 12. Both called by Christ. Both denied Christ. The only difference- One repented and was restored and is in Heaven. The other did not repent, but committed murder and scripture is explicitly clear that "no murderer will inherit the kingdom of heaven". If some were predestined for Salvation , then the rest were pre-damned. The very verse you cited, KJS - "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but ALL should come to repentance". Is a black and white proof against the notion that some were pre-damned. double-predestined. Predestined to be punished for what they could neither choose or reject.. Maranatha Disciple4Life |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Nov 14, 2020 22:43:17 GMT -6
Hello, kjs and other fellow watchmen. Just a couple things. KJS, I'm one of your fans and follow your posts. So im not challenging you, just sharing some thoughts. Can you give the verse that you mentioned "Christ won't return until the Jews ask him". There's a lot of passages i have read but just can't remember. Matthew 23:39 is the actual verse but. 37 starts the whole thing off Second- you said It's clear that God's plan was thwarted" This particular word implies that his plan was overthrown- his plan was hindered or altered with out his permission or power to do any thing. I doubt see this as the case at all. God allowed the Holocaust because of the fallen world but it broke his heart. It's like a parent who tells his child not to touch the candle or the heater. The child doesn't obey. The parent knows the child will be burned slightly- a shall blister, but a lifelong lesson on the concept of disobedience and discipline. The parents' plan was not thwarted. The issue here is The Openness of God". Scripture is filled with examples of God moving, responding to his peoples' prayers. Abraham negotiated with God re Sodom. The persistent widow, Satan dealing with God regarding Job, etc, etc etc. As my 4 point Calvinist pastor said "Real love always has to have the possibility that the person can refuse. The option to say No. Forced love by any other name is rape." Ok, thwarted may be too strong .... God allows his will to be over ruled but it is clear that God allowed the rejection to happen to bless the Gentiles (Creation of the Body of Christ) He rejected the false doctrine of limited atonement- as did Calvin. ***KJS i don't think you are Calvinist- and I have many many brothers who are, but its to speak truth in love. Not even a single verse anywhere to support the perverse notion that Christ only died for some. "He gave lis life as a ransom for all." In the Original Greek, all means all.😉 Same exact word in the passage that says "all" have sinned". "He tasted death for every man. ". Nor is there an iota of a verse anywhere that says the free gift of God can't be refused. [ Irresistible Grace] Then we need to be very aware and conscious of the strong correlation between Calvinism and Replacement Theology. It's one of the heresies of the last days. Peter and Judas were both listed as apostles. Both chosen as part of the 12. Both called by Christ. Both denied Christ. The only difference- One repented and was restored and is in Heaven. The other did not repent, but committed murder and scripture is explicitly clear that "no murderer will inherit the kingdom of heaven". If some were predestined for Salvation , then the rest were pre-damned. The very verse you cited, KJS - "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but ALL should come to repentance". Is a black and white proof against the notion that some were pre-damned. double-predestined. Predestined to be punished for what they could neither choose or reject.. 1 Tim 4:10. States God is the savior of all people, especially those who believe so NO I do not think anyone is pre-damned...... Maranatha Disciple4Life |
|
|
|
Post by disciple4life on Nov 14, 2020 23:36:51 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply, my friend. I hope you know- that I'm agreeing with you, kjs re the point of man having free will both to choose God and to reject Him. Without the choice to say no, we are robots or slaves. Also, I didn't ever think you believe anyone is pre-damned. ;-) That verse you cited is very good!. It states Christ is the Savior of all/ every man but we are not supporting universalism - that everyone will be saved. We can simply look around us and see the growing evil and perversion and the wickedness, and it's only getting worse, and we can see this effect on the shrinking number of Evangelical Christians. It is stating that Christ paid the ransom "once for all" "tasted death for every man"- his substitutionary death on the cross made salvation possible for all man kind. - 'whoever is thirsty, let him come and drink of the water of life freely." The part about pre-damned is hyperbole to make a point. That it's impossible to have 50% of a group pre-ordained to be saved without the other 50% not being pre-damned. There are so many dilemas, or conundrums in Calvinism but one of the biggest is that any 5th grader can see that over and over scripture says that Christ made the offer to "all" "whosoever" to every man, "all mankind" so it raises the glaring dilema that either we can't trust scripture, or else it means that all the invitations were disingenuous. Cordially Disciple4life |
|
