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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 20:16:03 GMT -6
I plan on answering the question about how the popular "end times" events fit into the kingdom model.
Other than that, I feel like I may have dropped the ball on some questions. If you have a comment or question that I have not responded to, can you please let me know again. I promise it was not intentional!
By the way, it is very helpful to hear comments from people. Thanks! I can always use the encouragement!
SK
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 6:02:27 GMT -6
So you're saying I should NOT take a trip to physical Jerusalem in the near future? Or the modern nation of "Israel" for that matter?
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Post by MikeTaft on Jan 3, 2018 7:34:46 GMT -6
So you're saying I should NOT take a trip to physical Jerusalem in the near future? Or the modern nation of "Israel" for that matter? Given the current events surrounding Jerusalem, and the buildup of enemy forces on Modern Israel's borders, something tells me it won't be so "touristy" before long. If you feel the Lord leading you there, then by all means go. However I caution great discernment. My wife has been wanting to travel to places like Europe and Israel, but with the geopolitical and cultural world changing rapidly we're probably better off staying put. Just my opinion <--- That and $2 can get you a coffee. |
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Post by mike on Jan 3, 2018 8:20:22 GMT -6
This is hard for me to articulate but you (SK) have helped me to grasp it a bit better with the 2 Thes 2 exposition. Something about how we relate to God that has often caused me to ponder greatly is time. God created time and placed us and everything else that is physical within it. Perhaps everything save Him is bound by time itself, yet now perhaps He is too (to a degree). My thoughts often conflict in that everything has a beginning yet none have an end, we are eternally "alive" as are the angels, etc. However, everything in the creation has an appointed time, including the angels (including those fallen) despite being outside of time itself they are waiting for the DAY. Do they/does God have a heavenly calendar yet there is no time (at least as we see/know it). I guess those who are outside of time are really not outside of it after all. God has bound everyone including himself to the time He created to reveal His plan. Again this has always caused me to think really hard and get my brain hurt! He's watching and has to wait until the time!!
Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2018 9:45:21 GMT -6
Good thoughts mike. Chuck Missler has a really good video explaining how God possibly views/interacts outside of time. It was very informative. I will look for it and post it. He had diagrams for examples and having a visual helped understanding a lot. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 10:11:32 GMT -6
I believe that God is outside of time but that His creation is within a plane of time that He created. He can see the entire plane. In fact, He has already implemented the entire sequence of events, but these events must play out exactly as defined by Him. There are appointed times that He uses to guide us in our understanding. He uses these appointed times to reveal Himself to us - both spiritually and physically. So, yes, the revealings that are being described in 2 Thes. 2. Must occur at the appointed time. This does not need to mean a feast day. Appointed times also happen when we go into and come out of judgement. Testing periods also have appointed start and finish times. If God appoints a nation to be judged for 70 years, then the appointed time to for that nation to come out of judgement is 70 years later. The thing that right now is restraining God from revealing His Christ and the man of lawlessness, is that it is not yet the appointed time. mike, the verse you quote (Gal. 4:4) is another perfect illustration of this. When we can see more completely, we will likely be able to look at our lives and see the pattern of our appointed times correlating to the events that took place. We will then truly know how intimately the Lord was involved in our lives. |
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Post by MikeTaft on Jan 3, 2018 10:21:23 GMT -6
One good example of the idea of how God exist outside of time is to take a really big sheet of paper and imagine that the paper has no boundaries (i.e. infinite plane). Then take a segmented line and draw it across the paper. That line represent all of creation and time contained therein. There is a beginning and an end. God is not only at the beginning and end, but across the whole line. I can agree with you mike how your can hurt your head just about thinking about it. Our finite minds just can't handle infinite. I feel the same way every time I think about the Trinity of God. Father, Son, Spirit, Separate persons, but one God and the same. I just accept it as it is and as for figuring it out I'll leave that up to my resurrected body when the time comes, lol. Edit: Note to self - I need to proof read more. |
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2018 10:41:12 GMT -6
It's a little over 2 hours long, but has some really good information about time, how God is outside it and interacts with it.
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jan 3, 2018 11:03:26 GMT -6
Revelation 10:1-7 KJVS
[1] And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: [2] And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, [3] And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. [4] And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. [5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
From my thread on the global rainbow and the connection I’m sure many are making with these Restoration threads, I believe we are at the threshold of time ending and the coming our Lord.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2018 13:04:57 GMT -6
Revelation 10:1-7 KJVS [1] And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: [2] And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, [3] And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. [4] And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. [5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. From my thread on the global rainbow and the connection I’m sure many are making with these Restoration threads, I believe we are at the threshold of time ending and the coming our Lord. Just a thought to who or what the seven thunders are. 17. And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: I find your rainbow idea very interesting. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 3, 2018 15:27:11 GMT -6
I was wondering about this generalization. In the bible studies I have been to with the women leaders of our church, there is a always this concern to "not replace Israel with ourselves" that God has a time for them.. (and I thought end time prophecy for them was going to be unicorns, rainbows and epiphanies of Jesus that they receive, the Tribulation was for the non Jew unbelievers, but the Jews would be able to survive...) yet inlight of Restoration, this makes Israel's identity so much more obvious... and now I almost take offense to that term that "we should not replace Israel" yet this term has gotten skewed to explain away the prophesies that Jesus spoke and the was revealed to John. Jesus DID though "replace physical Israel/temple" if you will. Indeed yes technically the whole pattern of the old testament and reading the old testaments of those alive before Jesus came physically as man, was demonstrated to "Israel/Judah" thru Moses onward as God revealed His Plan thru them. Even moreso to be taught (at least in my experiences taught by others to me) I have been told (even by my mom) that when you go against Israel you will be cursed, when you protect Israel you will be blessed." paraphrasing Genesis 12:1.. 1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father’s house, To the land which I will show you; 2And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.” Have the Christian churches been "deceived" by these passages because of the makeup of modern day Israel is hidden and the mandates lost by Christian teachings? Are we being deceived to look for His return via the feasts when in fact it is at His "appointed" time and that is why no man knoweth? Every time we date set God is REFINING those doing so (ie, krnboitae ) to not walk in the physical ordinances given to biblical Israel, but to WALK IN FAITH and not by those Laws...or the things of the "antichrist"..those who are not believing in Christ..ie. jews... Am I to understand that the "pride" of the "chosen people" (ancient tribes Israel/Judah) is so strong, that God foreknew that they indeed would be the Antichrist themselves? Can I dare type that and post that? That we could be (have been) deceived as a nation to protect the very nation that God is preparing for final judgements (final restorations)? But this deception is crucial for modern day Israel to be established. I get it now. Am I on the right track here SK? |
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jan 3, 2018 15:42:56 GMT -6
I was wondering about this generalization. In the bible studies I have been to with the women leaders of our church, there is a always this concern to "not replace Israel with ourselves" that God has a time for them.. (and I thought end time prophecy for them was going to be unicorns, rainbows and epiphanies of Jesus that they receive, the Tribulation was for the non Jew unbelievers, but the Jews would be able to survive...) yet inlight of Restoration, this makes Israel's identity so much more obvious... and now I almost take offense to that term that "we should not replace Israel" yet this term has gotten skewed to explain away the prophesies that Jesus spoke and the was revealed to John. Jesus DID though "replace physical Israel/temple" if you will. Indeed yes technically the whole pattern of the old testament and reading the old testaments of those alive before Jesus came physically as man, was demonstrated to "Israel/Judah" thru Moses onward as God revealed His Plan thru them. Even moreso to be taught (at least in my experiences taught by others to me) I have been told (even by my mom) that when you go against Israel you will be cursed, when you protect Israel you will be blessed." paraphrasing Genesis 12:1.. 1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father’s house, To the land which I will show you; 2And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.” Have the Christian churches been "deceived" by these passages because of the makeup of modern day Israel is hidden and the mandates lost by Christian teachings? Are we being deceived to look for His return via the feasts when in fact it is at His "appointed" time and that is why no man knoweth? Every time we date set God is REFINING those doing so (ie, krnboitae ) to not walk in the physical ordinances given to biblical Israel, but to WALK IN FAITH and not by those Laws...or the things of the "antichrist"..those who are not believing in Christ..ie. jews... Am I to understand that the "pride" of the "chosen people" (ancient tribes Israel/Judah) is so strong, that God foreknew that they indeed would be the Antichrist themselves? Can I dare type that and post that? That we could be (have been) deceived as a nation to protect the very nation that God is preparing for final judgements (final restorations)? But this deception is crucial for modern day Israel to be established. I get it now. Am I on the right track here SK? Holy cow....things are starting to link together. could this be why this nationalpost.com/news/world/texas-town-makes-hurricane-aid-applicants-pledge-not-to-boycott-israel is a thing? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 16:33:55 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl - I won't quote you so as to keep the post smaller, but I have some comments about your post. Most Christians see the flaw of "replacement theology" and try to avoid it. By doing so they raise physical Israel up - and since they think physical Israel is Modern Israel, they raise modern Israel up. What most do not understand is that physical Israel was placed within spiritual Israel the same way we are. And genetic Israel members can be placed within spiritual Israel even today - the same way everyone else is - Faith in Christ. Of course, few Christians know about spiritual Israel. Long before Jesus came, physical Israel had given up the right to bring in the kingdom. They had become inconsequential to the spiritual plan. But many of the members of genetic Israel are still members of spiritual Israel. Because their faith was in God's Salvation (Jeshua) as we have shown. They are our brothers and sisters. So, although, I see your point in that Jesus, in one sense, replaced the physical. It does confuse the language a bit. Really, He made known that He was the Root of the tree from the beginning. And then Paul made it clear that the physical was to be cast out. - - - Interesting thing about the passage you quoted: 3And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.” If you take this at face value - since all families of the earth will be blessed and since one will be cursed if they curse Abram - then this means that all will eventually bless Abram. Otherwise the last part of the verse would be false. I love it when God puts stuff like that in broad daylight. This blessing and curse was not meant for physical Israel - it did not even exist when this promise was made. But it is about spiritual Israel. This is the nation that God was promising to Abram. But it was also manifested in the physical as an example for us and as a means to bring in the Kingdom - which did not succeed - according to plan. Yes - the churches think Modern Israel is Israel and so they "bless her." Crazy, but in so doing, they are declaring their allegiance to Babylon. They don't know it, they are blind. But their blindness will be used by God. It is the same as praying for the peace in Jerusalem. That was a very old passage that has nothing to do with modern Jerusalem. Check this out: Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
See, we don't teach this passage in the churches. This was long after David said to pray for the peace in Jerusalem. - - - - As far as date counting - I am 100% with you. When it comes to the feasts, I differ. We need to be careful to differentiate the physical law from the spiritual law behind it. Jesus will still perform the works of the fall feasts just as he performed the works of the spring feasts. We need the second work to be done. But what you say is absolutely correct when it comes to the physical laws. We must look at the spiritual side of the law now. But the law itself is still valid. It is the flesh/carnal nature that physical Jerusalem represents. That is what must be cast out. - - - - - Your antichrist quotes are right on. Only John uses this term and never in The Revelation. He defines it as the one that denies Christ. The very definition of modern Israel, the Jews, and Esau. You are very close to the right track, barbiosheepgirl. As individuals, sure they are of the spirit of antichrist. But the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition is a corporate being just like Emmanuel or the sons of God or the body of Christ. This man of lawlessness is not limited to modern Israel, Judah/Esau. It also includes the many Christians who have supported the Modern Zionist movement. Don't be alarmed. One can easily change allegiance. To do so, all one must do is to declare Jesus as Messiah / King and cast out the bondwoman. To be a son of God, which we need to cover in more detail, but it is a very touchy subject - requires a bit more. The thing that is most crazy here is that when the man of lawlessness is "revealed" many will discover that he was within them! Check this out: Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [They've been around quite awhile]
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Those bolded words - iniquity - are actually the word: lawlessness. Many have the man of lawlessness within them. And this will be revealed at the coming of the Lord when He is also revealed and when the Sons of God are revealed. It will not be some demi-god sitting in a temple (that does not even have a place to sit in the holy of holies) proclaiming to be God. It will be the man of lawlessness sitting within our own temples claiming that Christ is secondary to the temple in Jerusalem. Not in so many words, after all - didn't we prophesy and cast out devils in your name? ------- So yes, you are very much getting it. If we could see, we would not have allowed Esau to take over the land and claim the name of Israel. We would have stopped all that in the name of the Lord. Trump would not have declare Jerusalem the capitol of Israel. But most are blind and so God's plan unfolds exactly as it should. As a matter of fact, if you teach these things, you will begin to be persecuted. Just as Paul said would happen when one casts out Hagar.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 17:11:52 GMT -6
This is very odd, no? This might be a good time to issue a warning. These things can be confusing. Remember, God himself is sending a strong delusion. On one hand, we can see the historical logic to declaring Jerusalem the capitol. It makes sense. On one hand, we see the Palestinians and the Arab world being completely "unfair" to Israel. On one hand we see the injustice and lack of logic in all things that deal with Israel. And because we want justice, and fairness, and truth - we side with Israel. This make sense. So there is a fine line to be walked. My method is to be like a reed in the wind. Or like when you go to the ocean beach and allow the large waves to hoist you up and down without fighting them. In this same way we must ride the waves of the Spirit. This is why we must learn to hear God. We must see Him, His plan, and we must say Amen. Jesus told His disciples not to prepare ahead of time what they would say when they were dragged to prison - they were to depend only on the Spirit. This is what we are coming to as well my friends. People are getting their hearts "ready" for rapture - whatever that means. My exhortation to you is to submit yourself completely to God's fire. Rest in Him. Trust Him. Hear Him. Walk in the faith of what you hear. Do not prepare to escape. Not that I understand why one would have to "prepare" to go to heaven. Instead, rest! Know that He is in charge - none of this is new to Him. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 21:43:27 GMT -6
1 Thessalonians 4 / 1 Corinthians 15
Let’s cover a couple of items with these passages. My point is just to do some sanity checks to break us free from some of our conditioned beliefs about these passages.
1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Issue 1: Invalid use of verse 18
First of all, let’s look at the point of this paragraph that Paul included in his letter. How often have we heard this last verse used to prove that we will be gone before the “tribulation.” Especially, from people telling us not to add to the scriptures. Therefore we can comfort each other that we will be escaping the tribulation. I even heard one teacher talk about the horrors of the tribulation and then say of post-trib teachers, "how can we comfort one another with these words?"
But if you look at the point of this passage - verse 18 ties back to verse 13. I will put them close together so that it becomes obvious:
1Th 4:13,18 … so that you will not grieve … Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul was not saying, "Yay! We’re gonna be raptured! Comfort one another about this." He was saying, those that are asleep have hope and will actually rise before the living do. So don’t grieve for them or worry that they won't be part of the return of Christ.
Issue2: Harpazo does not take us to heaven - way up there
We often assume that we go to heaven when we are raptured. But in this passage, it says Jesus will descend and we will meet Him in the air. The air is anything above the ground. We see this:
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
Act 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.
Here is a case where Philip was raptured, the word used is harpazo - but showed up in Azotus; not heaven.
1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Here, in the phrase “in a moment” - this word moment is atomos. It means the smallest particle or part of time. It is translated as moment, but it can also mean atoms. We are changed in our atoms. In the twinkling of an eye. We are not blasted to outer space or to the sky. We are changed into the spiritual realm - the air. The emphasis in this passage is the change from perishable to imperishable. To inherit the kingdom we must put away this flesh.
When something disappears - we say, "it disappeared into thin air". This is the way I believe Paul is using this concept. We are changed in our atoms and like Philip we disappear into thin air. The eunuch saw him no more. Now there may be some upward destination, but the key is that we are not going "away" we are changing from physical to spiritual. To be clear - this may be heaven. But it is also still on earth.
Issue 3: There is an order to this event
In both passages, 1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15, Paul gives us the same order, the dead rise (into their imperishable bodies), the living are changed (put on the imperishable), the living will then join the dead, and then we will all meet the Lord.
Now, we cannot determine what the timeframes are between these steps. They could be immediate as assumed by the majority of teachers. Or there could be space between them. In neither passage is Paul trying to teach us about timing, just that the dead will rise first and that we must put on the imperishable.
I happen to think there will be space between the events, but it is not really important in the scope of everything. Just keeping our minds open.
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