You have to look at Rev 12 through the first Beast to see what religion is getting judged. You're right that the Church has spiritualized Israel even beyond what Paul held. Christianity first of all in no way resembles what they believed back then so something changed. In Rev 12, that starting with the sign of the virgin, signifies both advents IMO. The caught away then is essentially the ascension. The dragon was there to swallow the child and Israel then hidden, meaning let's not infer anything just yet. The Dragon sends a flood representing the dispersion as they flee. They are in fact those 144k that's explained later. Out of the sea arises that first Beast that many think was fulfilled in 70ad but that was when the flood hit. The Beast is not hard to spot and the Jews know it well over the years. That was clearly the Church represented in that head where 666 was actually the number of Jesus being the perfect man, or 2nd Adam. Of course, the Jews have gone through unbelievable atrocities over their refusal to accept Jesus as God or worship that image. Our beliefs having been steered off course, we have accepted that God is such an egotistical god that he must be worshipped under penalty of death and eternal torment. So for them, that is the abomination of Desolation that their God who has shown such compassion could be this cruel. But the Elect couldn't be tricked and He will return for them. So it appears it's Christianity as we know it that is going into that lake because this religion has resulted in what we see today. But it's still cool. It's a wedding of Jesus to literal Israel but the HS is going to be poured out on all of us if our hearts and Egos are under control.
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 15, 2018 10:57:32 GMT -6
Reminding to those coming in to the latter half of this thread, that the point of this thread is God's Plan for His Kingdom. He has laid out a case through the peoples of the OT of the need for the Saviour, Jesus Christ our Lord.
For man disobeyed God. We became naked and ashamed:
Gen 3:9 9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
and we lost our position that was given to us in God's creation Gen 1:28, and was thus also prevented from eating of the Tree of Life
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every directionto guard the way to the tree of life.
thus being cast out of His Kingdom (His Eden) (Gen 3:23), we suffer death (Job 26;6 The realm of the dead is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered.) and shame (Gen 3:10), and we no longer walk with God because of that disobedience, and are in darkness (Lam 3:2 He has driven me away and made me walk in darkness rather than light)
All throughout the OT we see a reflection of ourselves when we walk in Faith in God which results in righteousness... Gen 15:6
Yet God still needed to provide a way back to the Tree of Life. We were cursed by our fleshly state, manifested as a mortal, dying body, subjected to sin. God sent His Son in the flesh,
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus was always there from the beginning as our Light
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
But man still deceived, walking by our flesh, walking in disobedience to God, had Jesus killed on the cross, a wooden cross, a dead tree. And Jesus descended into the depths of death yet He overcame. He overcame thru the power of the Holy Spirit, and His fleshly state was no longer subject to death. He rose in glory that we may also partake of that through faith in him.
Luke 24: 1But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; 5and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living One among the dead? 6“He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, 7saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.” 8And they remembered His words, 9and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
Jesus overcame death for us, and through our faith in what He did for us, we too shall live:
Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to ALL creation (all, not just some). 16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
We are baptized with His Holy Spirit that He promised He would send: John 16:7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me)
And why did Jesus come to us in the flesh? To pave the way for Salvation, a salvation that restores us to the way we were before our fall, that we are not in darkness but Light John 3:18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed (there's that shame again) 21“But he who practices the truth (walks in the faith of Him) comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
If you are a Christ-follower you are practicing the truth that leads to Light. You are not judged as being naked and ashamed the way Adam was. Do not be deceived. Follow Christ! Know who He is so that you are not deceived. The OT depicts His laws His ways, and sheds Light on what it means to be apart from God. Jesus walked this earth and the flesh, preaching about the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God, The Kingdom that the Lord wants for all of us. His Kingdom is at hand because of Jesus and His Work on the Cross. It is right there ready for us now to those who follow Christ.
John 16:33 (Jesus speaking here)“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
And the Kingdom of God will be manifested eventually on this earth (as John was shown in the Revelation of Jesus), and we will overcome the principalities of death and destruction as each one of us comes to walk in faith and the truth of Him, to be healed (restored) with the Tree of Life, from which we once were casted out:
Rev 22:1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
Do not be condemned, nor judged by Him. Follow Him, receive His gift of Grace: the unmerited or undeserving favor of God to those who are under condemnation. Walk in Faith that this Gift of Grace (Jesus) will lead you to everlasting LIFE!
Then I recalled the mandates & promises that God put forth thru people, and this very specific progression of events in Genesis that applies to today. The link article I found interesting in suggesting WHO is modern day Israel and how that is important to understanding prophecy...
barbiosheepgirl - A scripture came to mind today and I wanted to see how you apply this within this thread (topically). While I have read through the entirety of this I havent done much with it since. This came to mind today and in reading it I see a possible application here, but I also could see it as already fulfilled based on the way I see the script. Tell me what you think?
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Im simply going by memory here and that isnt the most reliable thing! Throughout this thread I recall various people having opportunity to "bring the Kingdom", yet Jesus seems to dispel that notion based on these two verses.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them]. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
This statement^^^sounds as if he was saying the day of the Lord would come like a flash. No definitive answers from me on this but plausible that He was referring to the crucifixion as verse 25 pretty well spells out.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
And here's where I could ruffle feathers IF anyone even sees this post as its buried behind 19 pages...If Jesus was talking about the crucifixion in verse 25, why do we immediately apply verse 26 to the end times? Lukes account makes me think He was talking about how they missed the arrival of the KING! Preoccupied with everything else going on around them (not unlike today for sure), but certain can apply to those who were around in 70AD when the temple and city were destroyed. He told them to get outta dodge!
Now combining this with Matt 24 I certainly see some end time application but not until verse 29. Please read the above then jump to Matt 24 and stop before verse 29 and see if you read it in any way shape or form like I did.
Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 4, 2018 22:53:56 GMT -6
mike, gonna try to discern and reply to your thoughts here and not sure I understand where the question is, but let me see piece by piece.. and I am using the NASV because I have most of my notes in that bible so here we go:
20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
When I see vs 20 and 21, Jesus IS the Kingdom of God, or as one can deduce from understanding the gospel that Jesus is the WAY to & is the Kingdom, no other way, and He was walking in the flesh with them and was right in their "midst" but the Pharisees did not comprehend that God would be incarnate??, and were missing the Sacrifice for Sins point of Jesus' coming. Lets take a step back too. Why are the Pharisees asking about God's Kingdom? They were and still today are looking for a King, so it kind of makes sense to ask this of this prophet guy Jesus, but why not the concern of theirs be "When are we no longer going to be accursed by the sins of Adam?" But from what I have been learning, the desire is not for being sinless to God, but rather having a King Ruler to subdue the enemies around them, and be the big time religious leader that ALL would bow down to. I am paraphrasing and making big generalizations. But they are chosen in their minds and are God's people and looking for something that is not the way God has intended.
mike then says: Throughout this thread I recall various people having opportunity to "bring the Kingdom", yet Jesus seems to dispel that notion based on these two verses. I am not understanding your comment here so I apologize for that. Yet, is not there a promise thru a specific line and the way things played out with the Kingship mandate that the King would come thru the line of Judah? So I am not sure what is being dispelled. Jesus coming thru the line of David, the tribe of Judah, all this fulfilling the Kingship mandate yet they are not "seeing" that because they are thinking flesh-wise, man's version King ruler. They are not considering the spiritual righteousness, obedience of faith toward God. Revelation not written yet by any means, but even in Isaiah there are essences of restoring to the way it was before the fall: Is 1: 26“Then I will restore your judges as at the first,
And your counselors as at the beginning;
After that you will be called the city of righteousness,
A faithful city.”
27Zion will be redeemed with justice
And her repentant ones with righteousness.
But let me keep going down the post you made:
22And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23“They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24“For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
This to me is why I think we need to be very open about what is to be expected in the 2nd Coming. My thoughts here will ruffle many feathers. This statement is not a wrath statement tho we do see the references to Noah and Lot...but what I keep on the table is that when the Kingdom of God (the 2nd Coming, the Revealing, the arrival of Jesus to where the saints will see this spiritually and physically, and we are told this Reign is 1000 years) there will be others that dont have this ability. They have not repented, or have not been called, and do not believe...there are two in a field one is taken the other is left. And the one left is the one sanctified. Because....Jesus has arrived and the Kingdom is taking over the other kingdoms. The tares have begun to be removed from the wheat, so to speak. This supernatural thing is pretty spectacular. The Kingdom of God will be on earth, not in heaven. Jesus sets His foot down on earth at his 2nd Coming. To be in that Kingdom requires that faith and belief in Jesus. Its an odd dimension of a sort. it is "in the air" in the midst, not way up in space. It to me is this 4th dimension and the "rapture" will reveal it to those being "raptured", and we see in Rev 14, with a barley harvest, a wheat harvest and the winepress (grape) harvest..
mike asks: If Jesus was talking about the crucifixion in verse 25, why do we immediately apply verse 26 to the end times?
I think because we have to remember He is talking about multiple things. yes, he must suffer, and man will not notice. As in the days of Noah and Lot not a care was given to the magnitude of God's justice nor mercy and definitely not the Gospel of Jesus..and that makes me think this: Even as Christ suffered, I think we who follow Him ALSO suffer while in the flesh..and that is why one would long to see one of the Days because there is Rest with Him, where The suffering is no more.
why are we warned that someone might say. there He is or here He is? Look here or look there, and we are told not to follow them? Because I believe there is more than just a Rapture followed by a great trib and wrath. This has to do with the witnesses, and I believe non-believers who are being deceived will mock these witnesses. I see a harvest that happens more than once, because of what is the point to all this? To establish the Kingdom Reign of Christ here on earth. The believer is not destined for the wrath that it will take all the way to and for the Winepress people to repent. Then again, I am on the wagon of God restoring ALL because He is that powerful and way more powerful than satan. I think His Wrath will be a just and merciful wrath until Every Knee shall bow willfully.
ok, I am rambling.
I think I see your actual question of verse 25 leading to 26 of Luke 17. It is the end times, but like I said earlier, why do we box the end times into 7 years? Why not look at this as a process that has some specific timeframes mentioned in Rev. yet the overview is the Kingdom Rule of Jesus being established over that 1000 years. wrath involved, yes. At the beginning, yes, but where does it say that it is only at the beginning? It is a Reign of Christ, but as we see in Rev, many nations will be healing..this tells me a process is going on, over time..
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit,yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
bond-servants serving Him...hmm..Paul called himself a bond-servant. This indicates to me that there are bond-servants going about the work of the Lord in bringing in(witnessing) to these nations, hence they are healing..yielding fruit every month, with leaves for healing...leaves not to cover shame or nakedness...but for healing, restoring. ah, man, it is going to be beautiful!
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thes 5:9 KJV
Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 5, 2018 7:26:37 GMT -6
mike , I went over your post again. i wonder what the destruction in 70 AD looked like? Did they not see it coming? An historian would know the circumstances. One can take the quick stance here and say "dual fulfillment"
Yet I still come back to this thought: Each one of us personally has a "fantasy" or interpretation of what this rapture and trib/wrath will be like. Does this "vision" get in the way of letting the Lord show to each one of us what the scriptures are saying? How open is a follower of Christ to say, "Lord, if it be your will that I experience tribulation, so be it. Nothing can shake me from my faith in You."
When I read this: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Is Jesus trying to remind them that we are made of body soul and Spirit? Later we read of the events that surrounded those who received the Holy Spirit after Jesus' ascension. They did not know where it came from. With caution (because of all the new age deceptions out there and other heretical teachings) the idea of the Kingdom of God being within you or within the midst takes a solid person of Faith to know that the Holy Spirit is alive and active. It is this aspect of Spirit that is tough to explain to a non-believer. It can be taken the wrong way, and has been why cults are formed from the idea of spiritual communication between man and God.
This verse here: 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day .
What is this saying here? This is trying to describe some spiritual dimension or that twinkling change thing perhaps? What did it look like in the Garden before the fall? Man walked with God in a glorified state. It did not take much to destroy that "glory", it was instant shame and nakedness. My understanding now is it will be the reverse of this event for the rapture harvests, but not all experience this at the same time (based on Rev 14). And many will be going about their lives unaware that this Iron and Clay will be crushed and the final Kingdom becomes established. BUT they will be made aware and long to enter that narrow gate because the alternative is living naked and shamed outside the Kingdom. This where that wrath takes place.
Again, I can't shake the way I see a restoration now verses a select group of people in heaven and many cast forever into hell. Souls just dont disappear. I see enough scripture to point to God doing a work on each and every soul. We should rejoice in that.
I still think I am not answering you question.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thes 5:9 KJV
EnochWalked: "the Biden administration intends to restore Palestinian aid and take steps to reopen diplomatic missions closed by the Trump administration and will continue to urge other countries to normalise ties with Israel." Are those the controversial policies?
Jan 27, 2021 8:32:20 GMT -6
bernie: Thanks Yardstick.
Jan 27, 2021 9:28:38 GMT -6