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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 21:44:12 GMT -6
I know, I'm supposed to be giving you an "end times" framework. I'm getting there. Sorry for these minor detours.
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jan 3, 2018 22:22:38 GMT -6
Daniel 12 and Malachi 4 are beginning to make a lot more sense now.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2018 22:26:29 GMT -6
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. Act 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.
When you read something and think the Bible had "science fiction" way before science fictions existed. Not that I am saying anything about the Bible is fiction at all. I am simply referring to the teleportation that was just described in those verses lol.
Now onto the real question, I see what you are saying about the part where we are changed from flesh to spiritual in an instant/twinkling of an eye/moment on an atomic level. Maybe that is why so many who have rapture dreams describe a swift pulling away or movement upwards that is sudden. My question is, what about Elijah, Enoch, and even Jesus ascension and taking away? All were taken somewhere and in an upward direction? I do not disagree on the Heaven is all around us. There are too many stories and descriptions in the Bible of that being very much so. Recent scientific discoveries and understanding of the other dimensions, how they play a continuous role in our 3D dimension, and that we are literally a projection confirms that even more imo. Where they just changed to their spiritual body? Just something I thought about.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2018 22:47:58 GMT -6
I know, I'm supposed to be giving you an "end times" framework. I'm getting there. Sorry for these minor detours. You are doing just fine Your detours are like the "tourist attractions" we spoke of lol.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2018 23:33:48 GMT -6
Daniel 12 and Malachi 4 are beginning to make a lot more sense now. I have never read the book of Malachi before. Wow. Short, sweet, and to the point isn't it?
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Post by MikeTaft on Jan 4, 2018 5:45:40 GMT -6
Daniel 12 and Malachi 4 are beginning to make a lot more sense now. I have never read the book of Malachi before. Wow. Short, sweet, and to the point isn't it? When I read Malachi it hits me like "woah" sounds very similar to the time we are in now.
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Post by mike on Jan 4, 2018 6:59:30 GMT -6
This was clearly John the baptist Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
This is US! Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 4, 2018 10:37:24 GMT -6
Good Morning all! I have been in study with the girls (my mom and her friend Gaye). I was trying to get them updated on this thread. Without the computer in front of me I was trying to tell them that yes, events and things particularly of the past 70 years are significant. But I was trying to remind them that Jesus came for ALL. That there is not a special treatment for modern day Israel, so to speak. That the "chosen-ness" may not be what we think. And then they were very worried that I am bringing in Replacement Theology. I then showed them 2 John 7-11. But I may have bit off more than I can chew here. These precious ladies are so much more studied in the major and minor prophets than I...they have a real concern if one is not supporting or protecting or being an ally of (modern day) Israel. Then they brought up the apple of His eye prophesy... And they said to please go read thru Zechariah and other prophets..and I searched this verse out. To me on the surface, this is SPIRITUAL ZION, not modern day Israel! help me out SK... I bolded that this must be a prophesy to those who have the Holy Spirit and escape...and look at the hope of verse 11!!!! Verse 12 needs explaining to me tho I am on the verge of understanding it. I think it is Spiritual "Judah" and the restoring of the kingship mandate to these nations that are now His people.. (not specifically those in modern day Israel who call themselves jews.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 11:51:52 GMT -6
So you're saying I should NOT take a trip to physical Jerusalem in the near future? Or the modern nation of "Israel" for that matter? Sault, I think you were being humorous in this post and, for the record, I did laugh. But, as MikeTaft touched on, there is a serious element to this. As I have been driving home every chance I get - we need to be hearing God. There may very well be some of us who are called to minister in the very areas that we know are about to undergo great turmoil. This ministry could be led to occur prior, during, and / or after such events. As we adjust our mindset to think more of ruling servants of the kingdom, the greatest love we can offer is to give our life for our friends. But, yeah, if it were for historical or tourist reasons? I'd be avoiding the area! Keep in mind, we still have an open Damascus prophecy as well - and it also looks like nukes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 12:05:25 GMT -6
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. Act 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.When you read something and think the Bible had "science fiction" way before science fictions existed. Not that I am saying anything about the Bible is fiction at all. I am simply referring to the teleportation that was just described in those verses lol. Now onto the real question, I see what you are saying about the part where we are changed from flesh to spiritual in an instant/twinkling of an eye/moment on an atomic level. Maybe that is why so many who have rapture dreams describe a swift pulling away or movement upwards that is sudden. My question is, what about Elijah, Enoch, and even Jesus ascension and taking away? All were taken somewhere and in an upward direction? I do not disagree on the Heaven is all around us. There are too many stories and descriptions in the Bible of that being very much so. Recent scientific discoveries and understanding of the other dimensions, how they play a continuous role in our 3D dimension, and that we are literally a projection confirms that even more imo. Where they just changed to their spiritual body? Just something I thought about. Good question, cwood85. There are some distinctions to make here. Enoch and Elijah were taken in their physical bodies. It is unspoken as to whether or not they were "translated" into their spiritual bodies at some point. We really don't know - did they just go somewhere else to be changed? Did they change? Jesus had already changed early on Sunday morning. So he also was not translated when the disciples watched him ascend. The only recorded harpazo that was witnessed by someone - was Philip - and he just disappeared and reappeared somewhere else. Really, Jesus' ascension was completely a marketing gimmick. I mean, think about it - He was already coming and going as He pleased. Appearing, disappearing. The ascension was for our sake - not His. It was to help us understand His return possibly. But, to be clear, I am not saying that we will change and then stay right where we are. I do believe we will be changed - and then meet Christ in the air - and then go to the place where we all are gathered. So we will likely go up at least a little ways. My point is that were are not meeting Christ somewhere else - outside of earth - we are staying on/at earth. We are not going to heaven and then hanging out. I do believe there will be a slight "hangout" as we join the dead, join with Jesus, and then are presented as a complete anointed body to the Father. But I think we are talking about less then a couple weeks here. Then we get to work! And what glorious work it will be. As the people look upon us, they will see Him! At that point, greater things then He had done, we will do. We will be able to see within people and heal them. Not just their physical ailments, but their spiritual ones as well. The kingdom will expand quickly with the greatest outpouring of the Spirit in all history!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 12:47:32 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl - I will do a short answer here and will follow up with a look at Zech 2. As long as people believe what they have been taught - 1) that genetic Israel is somehow special to God, and 2) that modern Israel is genetic Israel. Then anything said against modern Israel would be considered heresy - or at least evil. And I would have to agree with them. The problem is, as we have shown now, that 1) genetic Israel was simply given the opportunity to manifest the spiritual kingdom on earth and failed and were grafted out of spiritual Israel, and 2) the vast bulk of genetic Israel never returned. Instead it is Judah/Edom/Esau that has returned to call themselves Israel. But this is very hard for people to accept even if they have walked through what we have just studied. If they have never been taught the history / scripture on these things, there is no way for them to see it. Also, it goes against everything they have been taught for the last 50 years. All of Romans 11 will help here - really 9,10,11. But, Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?From here we can see that Paul is claiming that Israel after the flesh(v14) has been broken off due to unbelief(v20). But (v23) will be grafted back in if they believe. It is not really hard to see. The question is, what are they broken off and into? And what are those of us that believe grafted into(v17).
Most of the church will teach you that you have been grafted into physical Israel. But that is not true - otherwise, how can a branch be broken out of itself and then grafted back into itself. No, they were always placed into the Root. They were broken off the root, we were grafted into the root, and if they(genetic Israel) believe (as indiviuals) are grafted back into the Root (v17,18). So what is the Root? Well, the Root is Jesus, but spiritual, for this picture, it is spiritual Israel. Now, genetic Israel does have a natural attachment to the Root because they were, at one time, part of that tree. Until they were broken off. But, clearly, as Paul was writing this letter - genetic Israel was in the state of being broken off and they still are today. But, because of Restoration, Paul knows that eventually, all Israel will be saved and grafted back in - not as a nation, but as individuals - just like the rest of us. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Beautiful! Wonderful! Glorious! What a awesome God, indeed!
To those who do not see the spiritual Israel as part of the root of Jesus, when we talk about Israel no longer being blessed or modern Israel not being Israel, people believe we are replacing Israel with Christianity. Ironically, it is just the opposite. Christianity is joining true, spiritual Israel. I'll cover your Zechariah 2 passage next.
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Post by mike on Jan 4, 2018 13:22:43 GMT -6
SK - question here and maybe you covered it already with Judah/Esau/Edom but could there be significance to the 70 years of physical Israel becoming a nation as it relates to a missing 70 years "stolen" from J/E/E?
I suppose as part of the delusion it would make sense to have the physical mean something in the spirit but the discerned would look at one way and those still yet blinded another
EDIT - similar to this from page 8
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:33:49 GMT -6
Zechariah 2
First of all, we should note that Zech 2 is a continuation of Zech 1. It would have been better if there had been no chapter break.
Zec 1:18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns. Zec 1:19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. Zec 1:20 And the LORD shewed me four carpenters. Zec 1:21 Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it. Zec 2:1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Zec 2:2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.
So Zechariah is having a vision and he sees horns that have scattered Israel, Judah, and Jerusalem (v1:19). Then we see craftsmen that come to reshape the horns of the gentile nations that scattered the people. Then we see a man measuring Jerusalem. Notice that there are multiple nations that have scattered the people. Not just one. Also, why does one use carpenters or craftsmen to cast out the horns? Wouldn't you want soldiers for that? Not if you were building something instead of destroying it. And when you are building something, you may want to measure it. And so it is natural that we then see someone measuring the "city." This would never work in a physical sense - but it makes complete sense spiritually.
At this point, the angels converse and come and say,
Zec 2:4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
Ask yourself, Is modern Jerusalem inhabited as towns without walls?
Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
Ask yourself, Is God’s glory in the midst of modern Jerusalem?
Whatever city this is - God will be a wall of fire around it. There is no physical wall of fire around modern Jerusalem, but there is a wall of fire around the New City. Only by passing through the fire can one enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed (encircled) the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Which city is this? What is the beloved city - the camp of the saints?
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Spiritually, physical Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt. Not beloved.
Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
The gathering unto Him. From the midst of the daughter of Babylon. The next generation Babylon. We know that Israel, did not return from the land of the north. Only a small remnant found its way back to Jerusalem. But eventually, all Israel will find their way to the New Jerusalem. So either way, this vision can apply to both physical and spiritual. The only difference is timing. One group it does not apply to is modern Israel as a nation.
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. Zec 2:9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
He is calling to His people to come to His city. From verse 7, God is calling his people out of the midst of the daughter of Babylon, from among the nations. His people are the apple of His eye and He will shake the nations until all the good figs have fallen free. This is also similar to this:
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
When God dwells in the midst of us - this is Emmanuel - God with us.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
So there are a number of word plays happening here. Judah means praise. The word for land in verse 12 is adamah - which is a play on Adam. The Lord does not inherit anything - He already owns it all. But we can see what the verse is saying - God is given Praise because the adamah(promised land, inheritance) has been restored again to the Holy City - New Jerusalem. As a play on words, this group of people is spiritual Judah. They are the praise of the Lord.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
But then, silence!
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.
God's has awakened from His temple. Where is His temple? Within us. So the flesh must be silent as the spiritual is manifested.
Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Bottom-line:
This passage is talking about how the physical nations were scattered amongst the gentile nations. Through this scattering the chosen people became blind, but the gentiles were crafted and worked until such a time as the New City had reached it's appointed size.
Then God calls the new daughters back home - but now we are dealing with the spiritual people and the spiritual city. As the city grows and becomes inhabited by more and more people, God will be praised, the flesh will be silenced, and Judah will become complete.
Effectively, this is what Paul is talking about here (he is talking generically here about the nation of Israel - which at one point included Judah):
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Zechariah is being shown the workings of how the physical Israel and Judah were grafted out, but because of their blindness the gentiles were blessed by them as they were scattered to the four winds. Now the reaping of this harvest is magnified and the Name of God is lifted high. Another way of saying this is,
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Jesus hid the treasure among the nations, then gave His life - all he had - and bought the whole world. You see - everything points back to restoration.
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Post by MikeTaft on Jan 4, 2018 18:57:38 GMT -6
From my understanding since we are 100+ years from 1917 which makes 2018 a significant year. With so much to happen what is the next event? The Harpazo? Mainly the revealing of the Sons of God? I know His kingdom is coming. All of creation is groaning through natural weather phenomena and Babylon is reaking havoc amongst the nations. I'm just curious if God is going to gradually bring in His kingdom or start with a "shock & awe" campaign.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 19:25:07 GMT -6
SK - question here and maybe you covered it already with Judah/Esau/Edom but could there be significance to the 70 years of physical Israel becoming a nation as it relates to a missing 70 years "stolen" from J/E/E? I suppose as part of the delusion it would make sense to have the physical mean something in the spirit but the discerned would look at one way and those still yet blinded another EDIT - similar to this from page 8 By "physical Israel becoming a nation", do you mean modern Israel? I need to come up with better names for these Israels so we can keep the apart. physical Israel and genetic Israel are the same thing and have gone missing. Modern Israel is not Israel at all, but J/E/E as you state. So, Judah was supposed to be in captivity for 7 * 10 years starting in 604 BC. But they did not submit and so they were placed in a 7 * 360 years captivity. Are you asking if that 70 years could be related to the 70 years that Judah/E/E have been given now? I don't think so, because that would then reduce their captivity from the allotted time. I believe the J/E/E authority given now, is to allow Esau a chance to prove his inability to manifest the kingdom. We can't now for sure that "he" was given 7 * 10 years. But it lines up with the other timeframes that are ending during this time period. I'm not sure if I understood or answered your question.
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