The Revelation 12 Sign and Pentecost - CONNECTED!!!!!

"What is truth?" (John 18:38)

According to the previous verse, John 18:37, truth pertains to those who hear the Voice of Lord Jesus.

What or who is the Voice of Lord Jesus? It is my opinion that those who are of the truth hear the Voice, the Voice of truth, Lord Jesus.

It is not complicated but complex. Nevertheless, Lord Jesus is the Truth. Thus, the answer to what is truth is Lord Jesus. He is the truth. He is also the Light, the Way, etc.

The larger question is about the Voice of Lord Jesus, or rather, the Voice of Truth.

Obviously none of us here are the Voice of Truth because we are still working things out. If we were the Voice of Truth then we would have all the answers. Thus, as Silent teaches and I believe to be correct, all things can be questioned to find Truth and the Voice thereof.

The test of Truth is if it stands for eternity or not. Did Satan tempt Eve? Yes. That is true. Did Lord Jesus provide salvation for you and I? Yes. Is Michael from Daniel Chapter 12 the first man that was upon the earth? That is purely my speculation and may or may not be true. However, I think it is true but not provable yet. Likewise, it is only fair that we not set doctrinal parameters for any discussion except those outlined in the rules of this board. Things that are true will naturally take hold and things that are not will fall by the wayside.  

Post Script: What is the Revelation 12 sign? I see in that chapter a representation of the three woes and the rapture to the exodus.

1. 1st woe 12:1-6
2. 2nd woe 12:7-11
3. 3rd woe 12:12, it his here that we see only one woe remaining; the Verses 11:15-19 and Chapter 16 woe.
4. rapture to the exodus 12:13-17

Hello davewatchman. You actually caught me here in a period of "silence". I have decided to not engage here on unsealed presently. One of the reasons is what you mentioned. "It might be time to be silent before the Lord". However, when I saw your post, and saw that it was your first post, I remember just last week when I posted my first post here and I was quite excited, even more so when I started to get responses...and I have been challenged here. So I want to honor your efforts in joining unsealed. There is good information here that members can access. I want to thank you for your encouraging post above.

In one response I had I did answer the question about how did 12/31 idea arise. However, even I can't find it now. Earlier this year I read TRAMM, DOES SCRIPTURE SUPPORT A PENTECOST RAPTURE and for nearly 2 decades prior to that as I taught an adult Christian class, I had taught a Feast of Trumpets rapture. I was convinced. I loved Scotty's stuff. I regularly played his songs in my class. One sentence in that article changed me from that. It was "Feast of Trumpets is not a harvest feast." Pentecost is but there has not been a harvest! For 2 decades I had tried to make Feast of Trumpets a harvest feast. Now I have to tell my class, my friends, my family that I was wrong. I bought 15 copies of Langford's THE PENTECOSTAL RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST and passed them around to some family and friends, some of whom I had taught Feast of Trumpets before. Having changed my mind I had to let my students know. I did let them know in general emails to my class. This was well before Pentecost in 2017 on June 4. At that time I had been working out that Pentecost count, 7 Sabbaths, then the morrow after and that occurred last June 4 when Pentecost was celebrated on a Gregorian Calendar. When the "morrow" after came, on a Sunday (actually it was Saturday in Southern California) in June was when I went to my wife's grave because I wanted to see a resurrection at the "twinkling of an eye" from Torahcalendar.com. Pentecost is a harvest feast. I wanted to see a harvest. Well of course, not then. Obviously it was back to the Bible. Then I discovered the alternate additional 50 day count back in June and I applied that to get to July 23. July 23 came. Not then. But I wasn't so sure of the longer count so I did not go to the cemetery. Hah! I will have one more cemetery trip though. I still want to SEE a resurrection. Back to the Bible. Anyway I had waited for the Sign for three years. It was a constant idea that that was a sign for something. Three days before Thanksgiving, after the 50th day of the count had gone by on November 12th, is when I got the idea. Count the FULL COUNT from the Sign! The Sign is a RESURRECTION SIGN. You need to complete the last 50 day count to honor the completion of the Church. And I use the longer count to the complete 50 because at the rapture, the Church is complete. Then I started looking at other Scriptures to see if God really knows about this. Hah! Is that not the most idiotic statement? But it is not idiotic because if He does know what He is doing, and this is it Scripture will give hints to confirm it. Vini Vidi I changed my position. I was convinced the Bible confirmed it. I had not spent much time on unsealed. But the article about Billy Graham being 99 gave me even another idea and so I began to post my points in comments to that article. That frankly is where I started working more on creating and developing the points. I deleted a lot of comments as I re-worded stuff and made a mess out of the comment section under that article, sorry. THEN, I went to the threads and saw Kim's article on VIRGO and December 31 and I thought. Wow someone else saw this idea! BUT, his reasonings were...WAY different than mine but still he had reached a conclusion for that date. I needed to talk with him so I joined. That's the reason I joined. Thanks to him I have seen a few more things. I appreciate Kim because it was when I saw his Virgo/December 31 thread, that was when I decided I needed to post my article and so I joined unsealed on November 23rd. I remain in contact with Mr. Kim by email. Pray for him because he is in S. Korea.

davewatchman. Please download and read the article and see if it speaks to you. Read 2 and 8 first. These are the points that if you disagree there is no reason to even read the rest. I will take care of that in my revision. There are those here who respond and who will not be swayed from a Feast of Trumpets rapture. I am currently working on a revision of the article because those who did respond pointed out weaknesses in my presentation. Some of it was due to the pitiful way I organized my points. I frankly did not organize them. I wrote them down as I thought them up. People were right it was a mishmash. Lord willing, I am hoping to have it posted this Sunday on fivedoves.com. When that is done I will post it here, on this thread and the other one I created. I will engage again next week,  and I do want the information available to those who may wish to see if there is any way the SECOND GREAT RESURRECTION SIGN of September 23, 2017 could be an actual, day specific, encouragement to them. PERHAPS it can be, the big PERHAPS it can be if we are learning what to do before a count to the Harvest. This has never happened before. There has never been a harvest of Pentecost that involved souls. Well in one sense the start of the Church was symbolically that. But what we are supposed to do after a GREAT RESURRECTION SIGN in the season of the rapture? They knew what to do in Acts 2, they started the count. I think God took over at that point and said, "I will start the Church on Day 1" Now we are approaching day 50! AND we have at least 31 more days to go to Scripture. What I have seen is that it won't be my arguing that will convince people. This is simply Scripture. This is the Holy Spirit's territory. He started Pentecost with the flames of fire and we will get lit up by Him on the Last Day, the harvest of Pentecost. If this is His day then He will respond within the hearts of true believers. I think, after posting, I will be out of the fight. We will see.  

However, what I have discovered with you davewatchman, is that there are people out there who have not yet joined, who are able to piece together this idea, and need time to consider and be quiet before the Lord. Good going davewatchman. I am glad you joined and posted me and brought me temporarily out of silence.

You said, "But I'm not sure that we need the excitement. If the topic is true, we are going to have all the excitement that can be humanly tolerated. Maybe more than can be tolerated by the human heart." And I am laughing again. Yes that day will be so exciting that God knew we would need incorruptible bodies to deal with it! Love the thought davewatchman.

Blessings Saints. Soon we will rise and shine. Look up and keep counting.

You're welcome Dennis, and thank you for your reply as well.


I did find it. It only took a short time. Then I Googled "the alternate additional 50 day Pentecost count" to learn more about that.


I have to confess that I don't follow the feast days as much as I should. I think about them but haven't taken the time to do an investigation. When I read: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest", it makes me think these were specifically meant for the Old Time Jewish people of the past, or today's Jewish residents that live in that land. But as I am a devout Sabbath keeping Christian, I also have respect for the holy times of the Lord.

That would be remarkable to plan to see the resurrection of a loved one. I remember thinking about that when my Mom died when I was 45. I was hanging out at the cemetery too much. It's an old cemetery, MT Avon, in Rochester Hills Michigan that's surrounded by four residential streets in the old town. Somebody is going to see it. What about the people who have their loved ones cremated and keep the ashes in an urn at a place in their house. There might be some interesting stories to hear when we get to the the Beloved City.     


Here is where it gets interesting. What you are saying is that both you AND Kim have came to the same conclusion for 12/31, but you both arrived at that place using different methods. So what I'm, going to say here will sound equally unbelievable. I found December 31 back a considerable time before 9/23 and I used a completely different technique. Your idea of the Pentecost count seems to work, it looks OK to me. It might even have some sort of detail that I've missed, or don't really understand. I just noticed that there was seven "sevens", or 49 days, from the time of the conjunction of Jupiter and Venus, until a Biblical count of the "days of Noah" that would begin on December 31 and then be measured to a "darkened" sun and a moon that will not give it's light. 

I'm sloppy with my notes and don't have it all written down in one place. Like on this forum, one of the posters wrote how he wished all of your writings were in one thread, it can be harder to find something when the material is scattered around. Like a needle in a haystack. And i never intended to publish it on a public forum, or a website like fivedoves. What I found seems to be much more concrete. I was keeping it pretty much top secret. It's the empirical that just can't be fudged. There's not much wiggle room in the dates made by the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. I can't see how any of it could be coincidental. Impossible.

This is from a note that I wrote with an April 10, 2017 time stamp (#136):


This is from September 16, 2017 (#6):


 On another thread one of the posters mentioned how she thought "this event set the clock so to speak, being a marker, along with so many things (milestone anniversaries, lengths of times between both earthly and heavenly events, etc).

And that's what I think it did. It's marking out the setting of the third watch of the night, and that's the one where the Master will come. Torahcalendar has that cool live clock where it shows the watches of the night. But I don't think they're the ones Jesus was talking about. The 1st century Jews had already adopted the four Roman watches, but the OT only talked about three.

We shall soon see.

"If he comes in the second watch,
or in the third, and finds them awake,
blessed are those servants!

Peaceful Sabbath.

APOLOGY!!!

I owe many on unsealed.org an apology. I was new to the system here when I first posted last week. I put the article in a lot of threads and I see now that I should not have done that. I loved that I was able to get the article up and that some at least began to read it. Though I had joy that some were now reading the article I responded poorly to those who gave initial negative reports. I apologize to you who may have been insulted at some of the things I wrote as I responded to comments. I apologize to other members for my replying to comments in a way that resulted in division. This embarrasses me. I apologize to the many guests who may have seen that and were embarrassed for Christians.

For those of you who believe in a Feast of Trumpets rapture I am sorry that I was short with you all. I realize now, that if one holds to a Feast of Trumpets rapture, EVERY POINT, in my article would be nonsense and would need to be attacked and any truth there shown to be error. I now know that such a response should have been anticipated by me. I did not. I thought I was bringing hope and instead I kept wondering why all the negativity about the article so I started to pound back at times with negativity. I should not have done that. I am sorry and I repent.

Saints! Please accept my apology. What I took as bruises in the comments have been healed. I understand now that if you have a different view of the end times, there will be criticism of this idea I have presented and I should have anticipated the FOT folk and others who have a whole different set of theological ideas than I.

I am now dennislwatson version 2.0. I am not mad and really never was. I still like to crack jokes and laugh at inconsistency and especially my own AND now I know I am relying on you to point those inconsistencies out. As far as arguing goes, I do attack ideas that I think are wrong. I am a lawyer. I hate that about me. I argue points to conclusion, and that in addition to teaching an adult Sunday School class for 20 years, which was very interactive and fun, I enjoy a good banter. I am going to try and teach rather than attack ideas now.

Saints, I have posted a revised version of my article about the “14 Reasons Why Watchers should Keep Their Eyes on December 31, 2017”. Since I kept finding other reasons I renamed the article THE SECOND GREAT RESURRECTION SIGN OF SEPTEMBER 23, 2017 so that I can continue to add if there is new Daniel 12:4 knowledge that comes our way. Folks, it was a GREAT RESURRECTION SIGN and we are supposed to be counting.

I am content with the arrangement of points in the article now. Some who did not like the arrangement of reasons in the article were entirely correct. I did not arrange. It was a mishmash. It is less so now. Hope you like it. Now, even if you disagree, your disagreement will be made clearer. I attached it to the beginning post of this thread. It is also attached and downloadable at fivedoves.com. The one on unsealed can be revised as I am made aware of mistakes and as people connect me with new reasons. The fivedoves one gets updated once a week.

Blessings Saints. Soon we Rise and Shine.

dennislwatson , you are forgiven!
Thank you for being that courageous and forgive me for ignoring you.

Downloaded your revised article a few hours ago and digging through. Way better than the previous version(s)...
Will pray to get the right understanding of your thoughts.

Hey Moderators:

Would it be ok to post another POLL. I would like to track if there is any change of heart with respect to the termination of Pentecost count for the rapture.
Here was my thought...a 48 hour poll on

Poll #2 - December 8   (just to see where people are currently)
Poll #3 - December 22  (this will be interesting after Hanakkah)
Poll #4 - December 29  (this will be just before the day, in US,  when in Israel, this day count arrives)

Do I need permission to do a poll or do I just do it. I have seen others asking and that is why I ask.

Blessings.