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Post by bruce on Nov 14, 2017 8:21:37 GMT -6
Hello everyone. It's been a few weeks since I posted, but I wanted to discuss the significance of day counts and how well we actually understand them. Daniel gives us various day counts in chapter 9 and 12, but the bottom line is that the 70th week seems to be a combined 2520 days with an additional 30 days added to the second half making 2550 for both halves and a final 75 added (from 1260 to 1335) for the final blessing in the second half bringing the grand total to 2595.
If the 70th week is strictly 7 years of 360 days, then 2520 is our starting number. Many have speculated that this day count will end on some future Day of Atonement. When you add 75 days to the Day of Atonement you usually arrive at Hanukkah. It seems to fit nicely. If we apply that to the year 2024 and then subtract the appropriate amount of days we arrive at roughly November 19 of 2017.
Now if the tribulation were to play out this way, then November 19 would be the day the covenant is confirmed, but not necessarily the rapture, though if the pre-tribulation rapture is correct (and I believe it is) then the rapture would have to happen before or at the same time that the covenant is confirmed. Unlike the rapture which is technically sign-less, in theory we might see the covenant coming. Here is where I start to make assumptions, but I would assume this covenant would be something that the world could identify meaning it doesn't happen in secret. If that were the case it would be some sort of news event. In theory it could be signed/confirmed and presented to the public all in one day, but if world leaders are expected to be there for the signing, they would need a little bit of advanced notice to travel which would probably leak into the press meaning we might have some idea that a major announcement is in the works a day or two in advance.
We know that Donald Trump is pushing for a peace deal between Israelis and Palestinians, and current news reports suggest that he will present it in early 2018. That's too late for our day counts, but this initiative is being taken very seriously. News reports also suggest that Saudi Arabia is going to throw their weight behind this deal. They summoned Abbas (the Palestinian leader) to Riyadh telling him that he needs to either accept the Trump deal or resign as Palestinian leader. Since the Saudis give so much money to the Palestinians, they'll probably get their way on this one. Saudi Arabia increasingly has every interest in pressing for a peace initiative because they need Israel's help to fight Iran and they are tired of trying to deal with Israel in the shadows. It would be much easier for the Saudis to "solve" the Israel/Palestinian problem to give them cover to work with Israel against Iran. (As an aside, we know from Ezekiel that Saudi Arabia will not invade Israel in the Gog/Magog invasion, and it seems that they "protest" the invasion).
So the bottom line with all this is that, at this point, it looks like the pieces are falling into place, but not fast enough for November 19. The stars have been telling an incredible story this fall, and it would seem fitting for us to get raptured and the tribulation to start sometime soon if not this very week, but world events are happening at their own pace.
This fall I have reexamined a lot of my assumptions about the rapture happening on a feast day, and I am now convinced that the Bible does not require that the rapture be timed to coincide with a feast day. I have yet to completely adjust my thinking concerning Daniel's day counts, but I am wondering if some of the assumptions about the start and end of Daniel's 70th week should also be adjusted. The idea that the fall feasts are fulfilled by Jesus' second coming seems pretty compelling, and that would seem to mean that the tribulation should start in October-December 7 years before the second coming, and if the second coming is in 2024 that would mean time is running out, but it's entirely possible that one of these assumptions is wrong.
So that's what I'm thinking these days as we continue to watch the drama in the stars and the drama in the Middle East and wonder how much time we have left.
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Post by klb on Nov 14, 2017 9:24:38 GMT -6
President Trump tweeted yesterday that he will be making "a major statement from the Whitehouse" upon his return to DC. Could be totally unrelated but still interesting.
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Post by mike on Nov 14, 2017 11:10:25 GMT -6
bruce would you mind just expounding a bit on the Saudis and then protesting rather than participating in the invasion of Israel? For those like me who aren't as astute in the mix of all related OT & NT passages it would be most welcome if you could point the relevant verses where Saudis protest yet the whole world turns against Israel. Many like me may have the peace deal at the outset confused with the final battle. There is so much to sort through pertaining to the end times that I often get confused. I know the battle of Armaggedon all will turn against Israel, but the "false peace" pact, could you touch on that more?
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Post by mike on Nov 14, 2017 11:44:16 GMT -6
President Trump tweeted yesterday that he will be making "a major statement from the Whitehouse" upon his return to DC. Could be totally unrelated but still interesting. I had seen that it was regarding NK, but we will find out soon enough |
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Post by bruce on Nov 14, 2017 11:49:01 GMT -6
bruce would you mind just expounding a bit on the Saudis and then protesting rather than participating in the invasion of Israel? For those like me who aren't as astute in the mix of all related OT & NT passages it would be most welcome if you could point the relevant verses where Saudis protest yet the whole world turns against Israel. Many like me may have the peace deal at the outset confused with the final battle. There is so much to sort through pertaining to the end times that I often get confused. I know the battle of Armaggedon all will turn against Israel, but the "false peace" pact, could you touch on that more? Ezekiel 38:13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? I have heard it argued that Sheba and/or Dedan refer to Arabia and could be a reference to modern Saudi Arabia. That's where I get that from. Their comments suggest that they are displeased with Persia's action, yet they seem to take no action themselves. Interestingly, some suggest that Tarshish refers to Britain and the "young lions" refers to the USA. These are all assumptions. All of these speculations are built on assumptions and until we have hindsight I guess we can't know for sure, but it certainly seems like things are shaping up the way Ezekiel prophesied for a major battle right around the start of the tribulation. The exact relationship between the Battle of Gog/Magog and the Tribulation is disputed. I tend to believe that it happens before or at the very beginning. There are others who argue it is the same as Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation, and others who argue it happens at the end of the Millennium. It would be a long post to go through the merits of each view, but my personal view is that it will be before or at the very beginning of Daniel's 70th week (the tribulation) and that the Battle of Armageddon is a separate battle at the end of the Tribulation. It's also not entirely clear how the battle relates to Daniel's covenant, though if they are happening around the same time, it seems likely that the covenant either leads to the battle, or the battle leads to the covenant. The scenario I hinted at above would probably comport with the former view. |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 14, 2017 12:19:08 GMT -6
The Saudis also appear to neither be participants in the Psa 83 war, nor participants in the Isa 17 war.
If these two wars occur during the Trib; the Psa 83 war could precipitate the Isa war (as a single action of destroying Damascus); and the Isa war could precipitate the Ezekiel 38-39 war which then could precipitate or be the war at Megiddo...
If memory serves, there is a prophecy about Saudi Arabia being added to the fold during the Millenium.
I know... overuse of the word precipitate. I was having chemistry lab flashbacks....
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Post by yardstick on Nov 14, 2017 12:23:50 GMT -6
bruce would you mind just expounding a bit on the Saudis and then protesting rather than participating in the invasion of Israel? For those like me who aren't as astute in the mix of all related OT & NT passages it would be most welcome if you could point the relevant verses where Saudis protest yet the whole world turns against Israel. Many like me may have the peace deal at the outset confused with the final battle. There is so much to sort through pertaining to the end times that I often get confused. I know the battle of Armaggedon all will turn against Israel, but the "false peace" pact, could you touch on that more? Ezekiel 38:13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? I have heard it argued that Sheba and/or Dedan refer to Arabia and could be a reference to modern Saudi Arabia. That's where I get that from. Their comments suggest that they are displeased with Persia's action, yet they seem to take no action themselves. Interestingly, some suggest that Tarshish refers to Britain and the "young lions" refers to the USA. These are all assumptions. All of these speculations are built on assumptions and until we have hindsight I guess we can't know for sure, but it certainly seems like things are shaping up the way Ezekiel prophesied for a major battle right around the start of the tribulation. The exact relationship between the Battle of Gog/Magog and the Tribulation is disputed. I tend to believe that it happens before or at the very beginning. There are others who argue it is the same as Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation, and others who argue it happens at the end of the Millennium. It would be a long post to go through the merits of each view, but my personal view is that it will be before or at the very beginning of Daniel's 70th week (the tribulation) and that the Battle of Armageddon is a separate battle at the end of the Tribulation. It's also not entirely clear how the battle relates to Daniel's covenant, though if they are happening around the same time, it seems likely that the covenant either leads to the battle, or the battle leads to the covenant. The scenario I hinted at above would probably comport with the former view. We are not above having long posts here! Volumes have been written! |
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Post by bruce on Nov 14, 2017 12:34:17 GMT -6
We are not above having long posts here! Volumes have been written! Noted :-) However, scholars have written about the various views much more thoroughly than I ever could. My go-to website to read up on the scholastic pre-trib end times Bible interpretations is as follows. It's a real gold mine of information: pre-trib.org/articles |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 14, 2017 12:36:50 GMT -6
We are not above having long posts here! Volumes have been written! Noted :-) However, scholars have written about the various views much more thoroughly than I ever could. My go-to website to read up on the scholastic pre-trib end times Bible interpretations is as follows. It's a real gold mine of information: pre-trib.org/articlesSorry Bruce! That was a bit of an in-joke related to posters who do in fact write quite a lot in their posts. :-) |
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Post by bruce on Nov 14, 2017 13:25:27 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Nov 14, 2017 15:10:32 GMT -6
bruce thanks for the info. With Iran hating Israel and wanting it destroyed, and the Saudi's leading the peace arrangement along with others I wonder how much more this infuriate Iran et al?
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 14, 2017 17:07:25 GMT -6
Hello bruce ,
I love the thread!! ;-) - The topic of Daniel's 70th week / Tribulation is definitely one of my favorites, and there's so much I don't know. It feels a bit like trying to take a drink from a fire hydrant - one bad move and it can rip your face off. ;-)
Ok, so I'm a conspiracy theorist and I lean that the Feasts are inseparably linked to the Messiah, - but I'm also looking at other positions/ possibilities. It sure feels a lot like this is labor pains - and God knows I really want it to be.
- bruce "It's been a few weeks since I posted, but I wanted to discuss the significance of day counts and how well we actually understand them. Daniel gives us various day counts in chapter 9 and 12, but the bottom line is that the 70th week seems to be a combined 2520 days with an additional 30 days added to the second half making 2550 for both halves and a final 75 added (from 1260 to 1335) for the final blessing in the second half bringing the grand total to 2595.
If the 70th week is strictly 7 years of 360 days, then 2520 is our starting number. Many have speculated that this day count will end on some future Day of Atonement. When you add 75 days to the Day of Atonement you usually arrive at Hanukkah. It seems to fit nicely. If we apply that to the year 2024 and then subtract the appropriate amount of days we arrive at roughly November 19 of 2017."
**Because I don't know how to take a short quote out of the whole post. sorry. Bruce's quote above in blue.
So I'm following you so far- But you mentioned that you no longer feel that Harpazo is on a Feast day. Still with you. But it seems that you start from a Feast Day, - Day of Atonement or Hanukkah, 2024 and work backwards from there. So if I understand, you mean that you use the 2550 - [1260 First half + 1290 Second half = 2550] but have the Second Coming /End of the Tribulation corresponding to Day of Atonement, and if you count back that gives us the Nov 19th date?
Sounds very interesting. As I consider other possibilities - [This is me setting the feasts aside for a moment] I'm particularly fascinated with two passages - One is the Passage linking Noah and Lot to the last days. Both of these have almost nothing in common, neither were on a Feast day, but both cases, there was a warning - [Not a Surprise/ Signless event.] The other passage is from Malachi, about the Lord shaking the earth, and seas and the lands, again. hmm.
I also agree with your point about the timing of the war/ treaty. I think there could be a gap between the harpazo and the start of the 70th week. Unless we see a Peace treaty with Israel and Many, or some Ginormous natural disaster - like a 15 on the scale - that triggers massive tsunamis etc.- I think that the Harpazo event itself will likely be the Catalyst - the thing that lights the fuse and starts the chain of events. Without making it a long post - here's how I think it could play out. Think about this -
During the middle ages, the Black Plague ravaged Europe killing millions, but all through Europe it bypassed the Jewish communities, and the result was that people from across Europe noticed that everyone was dying except the Jews - therefore, they must be causing it. Think about if the Harpazo takes place and we have tens of millions of Christians gone from USA and China, and most people left in Muslim and atheist countries, except children, imagine how this could easily cause people to blame America, and world leaders to blame other countries -- there will be so much chaos, and hysteria, and sheer terror, that it could tip the balance for a psychotic madman like Kim/NK, or Iran. - This would set the stage for a world leader to emerge, and could also set the pieces in motion for a Treaty between Israel and Many.
I'm so eager to learn more - and longing to be gone too. Even So, Come.
Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1190/day-counts-november-19#ixzz4yRxZRXgl
Disciple4Life
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Post by mike on Nov 14, 2017 17:48:25 GMT -6
Unrelated to the topic but bwahahahahaha  , drink from a fire hydrant! |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 14, 2017 22:14:39 GMT -6
Unrelated to the topic but bwahahahahaha , drink from a fire hydrant! One needs a straw, otherwise the face-ripping would be a problem. |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 15, 2017 4:06:03 GMT -6
Hello bruce, mike, - This just in - so incredible. I thought you would really appreciate seeing/ hearing this. Things are really heating up and this - I think - is a very significant development. "Even So, Come" - Man, Mike, that's a powerful song - seeing those thousands at the Passion concert, just imagine Millions of saints singing that - ;-) "Like a Bride, waiting for her groom, we'll be the church." |
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, drink from a fire hydrant!