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Post by watchman35 on Nov 9, 2017 19:33:53 GMT -6
It sure seems to me like the lie of universalism--the idea that everyone goes to be with the Lord in heaven when they die--is in full bloom in these last days. The Pope claims we are all children of God. According to the Word of God, that is a flat out lie. To as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to BECOME children of God. And to those who believe, He gives us the Spirit of Adoption. If we were all already children of God (and we are not according to the Bible), then why would anyone need to become a child of God or receive a Spirit of adoption? Kids who are already part of the family don't need to be adopted. The message of universalism preaches really well at an unbeliever's funeral, but it is tragically and with eternal consequences the satanic creation of a soul-numbing ointment that soothes for 70, or if by strength, 80 years, only to then wear off forever. Abba Father, protect us from deception in these final hours, and stir within our hearts by Your Holy Spirit a deep love for Truth, in the matchless Name of Yeshua we ask..and all God's people said, "Amen."
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Post by kjs on Nov 10, 2017 9:22:42 GMT -6
If I may interject .... I believe you are looking at one aspect of Universalism....
There is a subset who do believe that all go to heaven - immediately, but the vast majority of the universalist I have heard or read up on simply believe that in the "END" all will be saved.
The difference being that some (of the all being saved) will need to suffer in hell a bit before they come to the realization of their need for a savior and thus they will eventually be saved.
I believe the main difference between the two groups is that the "CHOICE" for Salvation will occur AFTER DEATH......
If I understand it correctly (and no guarantee I do) it works out like this
1) Person Lives for self on the Earth today -- rejecting God and Jesus Christ. 2) Person dies and goes to hell (or the realm of absence of God) and suffers in some way. 3) At some point after the suffering, person is given choice again to choose God and Jesus Christ as their savior. 4) If second chance choice is accepted person goes to heaven, if rejected person returns to suffering without God. 5) Those who reject the 2nd chance are (after a period of time) given a third chance, fourth chance .... until such a time ALL are Saved.
Those who have developed this belief set -- have done so primarily because they cannot see how a Loving God can send someone to eternal punishment for a few decades of life on Earth.
So they come up with explanations -- One being eventually all will be saved. The other being that a some point a person suffering eternal punishment will cease to exist.
There are a few verses that seem to raise at least reasonable doubt about eternal punishment. One such verse is ....
1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Did you catch that -- "who is the Savior of all people"
I do know there is much we do not know about God...
Is it plausible that there are 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances after death -- yes, I can see it as being plausible --
BUT does someone really wish to GAMBLE on that interpretation being correct?
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Post by mike on Nov 10, 2017 9:58:56 GMT -6
kjs are you saying this in conjecture or as a plausibility? The chapter itself deals with false doctrine, so in context using verse 10 on its own seems to me misguided by those who would attempt to apply it as "all men are saved" or "eventually saved". We need to reconcile it with other scriptures like: 2 Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.This portion is clear about the fate of those who reject the gospel
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 10:01:07 GMT -6
Before everyone jumps all over kjs here, I am one who believes something akin to what he has described. I will say that the process kjs’s describes is not what I believe. But the outcome is similar. I first came to this understanding 16 years ago and it changed my life and my relationship with God and those around me. I call it the Restoration of All Things. It is all due to the finished work of Christ. Since then I have spent 16 years proving out the truth of this through scripture. With a few simple keys, one can begin to see scripture, salvation, and God in a whole new way. I would love to teach this, but felt I should not bring it up in this forum because of the forum rules. But, hey, kjs is a moderator! It reveals God as someone who is so much more beautiful than the one in which Christianity has allowed us to believe. I do not agree with general “Universalism” because it describes something else and people almost always lump my beliefs in with it and therefore reject something beautiful.
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Post by sawdy on Nov 10, 2017 10:18:14 GMT -6
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
I forgive my kids for their bad behavior and seek to teach and correct them, but at some point, I will cut ties with them, whether by my own death or whether their behavior was bad enough that I cast them out. God to me is like that. He is a loving father that seeks to teach and correct, but at some point, he puts his foot down and draws the line in the sand. I believe there is a point at which he drew the line in the sand and he has demonstrated that to us in his word.
On the cross Jesus was abandoned to the fate that he knew was coming. If he could have chosen to not be there in that moment he would have. But he knew ahead of time what he needed to do and he knew what was to come, so he endured that moment. But in that moment, God was not with him. At some point, if we choose not to acknowledge that sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross for us, we will be cut off from him. Eternally is what I believe in that. At some point, God created our soul and at some point he can make it cease to exist. I think the souls of those who didn't believe will receive their just reward and then at the judgement, our merciful, loving Father won't accept them but will put them out of their misery by allowing them to completely perish, as in cease to exist.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 10:30:59 GMT -6
That is another position sawdy . The idea that God will simply annihilate the non-believing souls.. This is taught by a few denominations, including 7th Day Adventists. However, it is rejected by the majority of Christianity - just as my view of Restoration is. I also reject annihilation. I cannot go into beginning to teach these things on this forum without permission from leadership. But if I could, you would see scripture come alive in a new way - you would see verses that seemed to not make sense come into harmony - and you would see verses that we tend to ignore or explain away suddenly reveal the character of God. God is a better parent than we are. Having said that, you may be the exception in motherhood. I, being a father, would never cut ties with my children.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 10, 2017 10:42:58 GMT -6
I tend to agree with sawdy. I was not raised that way, and the church I am in now teaches punishement in hell for eternity. But, as of right now, it makes the most sense to me. John 3:16 - the gift for trusting Christ is eternal life, to reject Him is to perish. Only eternal life is given to those who believe.
ETA: I do agree that there must be some punishment for sin. We either accept that Christ paid it for us, or a person has to pay it themselves.
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Post by kjs on Nov 10, 2017 10:52:40 GMT -6
kjs are you saying this in conjecture or as a plausibility? The chapter itself deals with false doctrine, so in context using verse 10 on its own seems to me misguided by those who would attempt to apply it as "all men are saved" or "eventually saved". We need to reconcile it with other scriptures like: 2 Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.This portion is clear about the fate of those who reject the gospel Mike: My overall point is that there is many "beliefs" out there. Saying as the title of this thread does "The Lie of Universalism" -- Is what is called setting up "StrawMan" arguments -- meaning someone builds a theory saying this group believes this and turns around and destroys the theory they just built to prove the original point. The Theory of Universalism is SO Broad -- with many, many flavors -- that it really is not fair to lump everyone into a group -- when it may or may not represent the entire group. In the case of Universalism -- is the believe at the END (of all time) everyone will eventually be saved. I personally do not think Universalism is true and have no desire to defend it .... however, I did want to point out the original poster -- was only looking at a small portion of the entire theory.
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Post by kjs on Nov 10, 2017 11:00:45 GMT -6
Before everyone jumps all over kjs here, I am one who believes something akin to what he has described. I will say that the process kjs’s describes is not what I believe. But the outcome is similar. I first came to this understanding 16 years ago and it changed my life and my relationship with God and those around me. I call it the Restoration of All Things. It is all due to the finished work of Christ. Since then I have spent 16 years proving out the truth of this through scripture. With a few simple keys, one can begin to see scripture, salvation, and God in a whole new way. I would love to teach this, but felt I should not bring it up in this forum because of the forum rules. But, hey, kjs is a moderator! It reveals God as someone who is so much more beautiful than the one in which Christianity has allowed us to believe. I do not agree with general “Universalism” because it describes something else and people almost always lump my beliefs in with it and therefore reject something beautiful. SK: There are only three rules for this website.... two of the rules have no bearing on the discussion you wish to explain. Only Rule 1: (as seen here) 1. No debating core doctrines of the Christian faith. If you are participating here you should be a committed Believer. Seekers and non-Christians are more than welcome also, but this is a forum that honors God's Word and therefore arguments against His Word aren't for this forum... questions are welcome though! For purposes of this forum, "core doctrines" are considered to be the historic tenets of Christianity: One self-existent God, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the virgin birth, the full deity of Christ, the substitutionary atonement, the literal and physical resurrection of Christ, salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, a literal and future bodily resurrection of the dead, and a historical-grammatical interpretation of Scripture. Premillennialism, a literal rapture of the Church to Heaven, and a literal/historical interpretation of Genesis 1-11 are also considered core doctrines. As long as your "belief" does not bash one of the core doctrines outlined above ... then feel free to discuss "Restoration of All Things" Does not mean we will all read it and accept it as the truth .... but at this time I do not see how your theory will violate rule 1.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 11:13:47 GMT -6
kjs, Ok. I was, interpreting core doctrines as a bit broader than that, and assumed they would include non-ending torment of unbelievers. Nothing I would teach would go against the core doctrines that you have listed and to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. I would be quite eager to discuss Restoration with this group. Of course, I would expect everyone to form their own understanding as led by the Spirit. I think it would be best to do in a different thread however, since, to some degree, I would be saying almost the opposite of what the original poster was saying. I’ll will get started as soon as possible. Thank you!
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Post by mike on Nov 10, 2017 11:17:57 GMT -6
Thank you kjs ..I appreciate the clarification @silentknight I believe Gary has an article or perhaps a thread someplace in the similar theme. I dont recall the exact dialogue. I think it covered a few of the views. If I find it I'll link it back here
EDIT - found info and linked. Oh and I am also interested in hearing your view
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 12:00:04 GMT -6
Thanks mike. Pretty sure I've read Gary's article on the subject. Also pretty sure that what I would share is anathema to most. I know it was for me until God moved in my spirit, opened up my eyes, and showed me how the message of restoration permeates scripture.
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Post by kjs on Nov 10, 2017 13:57:05 GMT -6
kjs , Ok. I was, interpreting core doctrines as a bit broader than that, and assumed they would include non-ending torment of unbelievers. Nothing I would teach would go against the core doctrines that you have listed and to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. I would be quite eager to discuss Restoration with this group. Of course, I would expect everyone to form their own understanding as led by the Spirit. I think it would be best to do in a different thread however, since, to some degree, I would be saying almost the opposite of what the original poster was saying. I’ll will get started as soon as possible. Thank you! SK: Looking forward to you discussion.... One thing I hope your discussion includes is .... John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.To me (the way the passage reads) -- it (BELIEF) is ONLY binary choice (as in there is no other alternative or choice out there) One either is a Believer or one is Not a Believer -- and it is only the Not a Believer who is condemned.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 14:17:26 GMT -6
kjs - I will definitely cover John 3. It is one of my favorite passages to illustrate restoration. For some, it will be mind blowing! But I will have to lay some ground work first. As a minor confirmation however, I would agree this is a binary situation. One is either believing or they are unbelieving. I'll get the thread started as soon as I can so we can all stop hijacking watchmen35's thread.
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Post by whatif on Nov 12, 2017 16:23:46 GMT -6
I'm also looking forward to reading your thoughts, silentknight! Thank you for starting up a new thread!
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