paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 2, 2017 14:49:51 GMT -6
If we want to be more specific about the particular apostasy or The Great Apostasy with the definite article that would be the end of daily sacrifices in the Temple. This lines up quite well with Acts 21:21 where James and the elders talked about a Jewish departure from Moses.
In Thessalonica there were many Hellenistic Jews and proselytes who became disciples and they were acquainted with Daniel's prophecy. In 2 Thes 2:3 Paul just reminded them the same thing that is written in Daniel 12:11.
1) taking away of the daily sacrifice (apostasy) 2) setting up of the abomination of desolation (revelation of the man of sin)
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Post by kjs on Jul 2, 2017 15:17:29 GMT -6
Cannot remember the pastor, but I do remember one was talking about the "stopping the sacrifices" in Daniel and His contention was that when Jesus became the Lamb of God and was the ultimate sacrifice - He in essence "stopped the sacrifices" because God would NoLonger honor the sacrifice of animals.
Can not remember how He tied it all in .... But I remember thinking to myself at the time --- that made a lot of Sense .... God would no longer honor the other sacrifices.....
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 2, 2017 18:47:00 GMT -6
And yet----- there will indeed be animal sacrifices during the Millennial Reign, according to Ezekiel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 19:06:40 GMT -6
As memorials, right? They point to Jesus, the only true atoning sacrifice.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 2, 2017 20:06:28 GMT -6
As memorials, right? They point to Jesus, the only true atoning sacrifice. Yes, that is what I understand.
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Post by whatif on Jul 2, 2017 20:26:11 GMT -6
I liked it- as a Christian, I appreciate the imagery for those struggling with hurt and anger. New agers are perverting it, as they do everything. It's a MOVIE. And compared to the one about Noah, it's heading in the RIGHT direction. Excellent! I'm so glad to hear it, truthseeker!
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 3, 2017 0:58:47 GMT -6
Another good example of a Jewish apostasy in the New Covenant and a turning away from a True Sacrifice would be in Heb 6:6 (falling away) and in Heb 10:26 where the author calls it a willful sin. This book is written (I believe by Paul) to Hebrews, so it applies to them. In Heb 10:28 he shows to the Jews the comparison between departing from Moses (they knew what is means) on one hand and trampling the Son of God (True Sacrifice) underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant a common (unclean) thing.
The Lord once showed me that the sons of Eli committed this willful sin and it calls the “iniquity of Eli's house”. Eli’s sons regarded animal sacrifices which were the shadows of the Lamb of God a common (unclean) thing. In 1 Sam 2:28 the Lord said to Eli: “Why do you kick at My sacrifice and My offering which I have commanded [in My] dwelling place…” Its interesting to note that “My sacrifice and My offering” is in a singular form, which speaks about the True Sacrifice. And then the Lord said “that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” (1 Sam 3:14)
Therefore, the son of destruction will commit the Double Apostasy. He will stop the animal sacrifices and thus depart from the law of Moses and then sets up the abomination of desolation presenting himself to be God and denying the True Messiah Jesus Christ.
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Post by kjs on Jul 3, 2017 2:04:19 GMT -6
Hebrews has a lot of Hard sayings in it. Some say Paul wrote it, others suggest it was one of People would traveled with Paul. it does appear to be directed toward the Jewish people. it also does appear that the author warns that those who start down the path of having Faith alone in Jesus accomplished work as the Lamb of God, and the return to performing animal sacrifices again .... They are dishonoring Jesus sacrifice and thus making it of no use to them.
Paul may be onto something here with the Man of Lawness making a mockery of Jesus .....
need to think more on it.....
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 3, 2017 4:01:33 GMT -6
Hebrews has a lot of Hard sayings in it. Some say Paul wrote it, others suggest it was one of People would traveled with Paul. it does appear to be directed toward the Jewish people. it also does appear that the author warns that those who start down the path of having Faith alone in Jesus accomplished work as the Lamb of God, and the return to performing animal sacrifices again .... They are dishonoring Jesus sacrifice and thus making it of no use to them. Paul may be onto something here with the Man of Lawness making a mockery of Jesus ..... need to think more on it..... Good point kjs. The whole point of forsaking animal sacrifices is the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. The man of sin is gonna do similar trick by telling Jews that no more need of animal sacrifices because he grants them the eternal atonement. But "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" In doing this he will present himself as God. That's why for me Ananias is the clear type of antichrist. The name Ananias means the grace of God. The true Ananias opened the eyes of Paul (believing Jews), but the false one tried to trick God's people pretending to be one of them. p.s. Maybe the killing of the 2 Witnesses is the beast's false final sacrifice...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 7:29:36 GMT -6
It (Hebrews) appears to warn against going back into sacrificing; knowing it is by Faith you are saved, as the "hall of faith" book explains why all the people mentioned were pleasing unto God. He was trying to get them to see that.
That is where I base my thought that we will see sacrificing in the third temple, but it is telling us(with eyes to see) that it is what 'they' are going to do.....to bring forth a culmination; not what God desires.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 3, 2017 7:59:59 GMT -6
I agree, truthseeker.
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 4, 2017 12:58:30 GMT -6
I was reading today Daniel 7 and stopped on the interesting verse. In verse 25 it says that antichrist “…shall intend to change times and law.” The word “times” in Hebrew is “zman” which literally means an appointed occasion or holiday. In other words, the antichrist will do some changes to the Law of Moses by putting the end of sacrifice. He will probably try to abolish Jewish holidays such as Passover, because by the Law of Moses Jews have to offer perpetual sacrifices during those holidays. But then it says: “…[the saints] shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time”, so he will be successful only for 3.5 years.
In Acts 21:21 James and the elders said that many Jews blamed Paul, because he taught “all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (G646 apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children nor to walk according to the customs.” Here “walking according to the customs” is keeping the Jewish holidays. So James and the elders persuaded Paul to purify himself by offering a sacrifice in the Temple thus proving to zealous Jews that he is not an apostate. It was unnecessary but Paul did it and got himself into a lot of troubles.
In the days of apostle Paul the term “apostasy” was forsaking the Law of Moses, sacrifices, circumcision and keeping the customs (holidays). Indeed, Paul taught after receiving the revelation of Jesus Christ that these things are just mere shadows but the reality is in Christ. But by teaching this way he appeared to many believing Jews as the one who commits an apostasy, so deserving to be stoned.
In summary we can say that the “apostasy” has nothing to do with Christianity (you can’t depart from the Lord for you are one spirit with Him), but it is a pure Jewish thing. In some way all Christian Jews are apostates, unless they circumcise themselves and keep the Law of Moses, but that would make Christ of no use (Gal 5:2).
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faye
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Post by faye on Jul 5, 2017 8:53:24 GMT -6
I was wondering about the meaning of the apostasy in 2 Thes 2:3 and asked the Lord about it a month ago. I heard there are some teachings that the apostasy is about Christians forsaking Jesus and staff like that, but I don't accept teachings of so-called Bible professors and "respected" theologians. The Bible says that apostles Peter and John were uneducated and untrained men, but many were astonished by their teachings. The reason is that they had been with Jesus. Personally it is better to spend 1 day with the Lord than 5 years in a Bible college (I have nothing against them). As David said in his Psalm: "For a day in Your courts [is] better than a thousand elsewhere." I personally don't believe in a born-again Christian turning away from Jesus. It only means that those people never been true believers but the professors (pretenders) of faith. So I was reading Matthew 24 where Jesus talks about the beginning of sorrows. It is good to mention that the word "sorrows" in Greek literally means "birth pangs". That is the exact translation in my NASB Bible. And when I got to the verse 10, which in my NASB translation says: "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another", I was reminded about my question and was pointed out that this falling away is the apostasy. I know that here is different Greek word, but one of the meaning of the word skandalizo is "to entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure". The Gospel of Mathew is the Messianic gospel and it was written primarily to the Jews. Jesus talks here about the beginning of birth pangs of the woman, who is the type of Israel. Therefore this apostasy directly connected to the Jews, who are going to turn away on their brethren (This is kind of shocking to me). The word "apostasy" used two times in NT. The second time is in Acts 21:21 and there apostasy is all about turning away from Moses, circumcision and Judaism. This whole thing just confirms my previous suspicion that Antichrist is of a Jewish origin and I have a good guess who he might be. That is why Paul connected the revelation of the man of sin with the apostasy. Hi Paul. Since the early 1970's I've been studying end-time scriptures.....on my own, btw, and I came to the conclusion early on that in order to fully grasp the meaning of those scriptures one must first determine WHOM they're about. I discovered that they're not about the Jews and the nation of Israel, and they're certainly not about the whole world.
The scripture in Daniel 7:24 tells us that they're about a people called "the ten kings out of the fourth kingdom upon the earth." And in Revelation 17, verse 12 we discover that the ten kings are the very people who founded/established that end-time nation called BABYLON THE GREAT. Thus, it is that people, the ten kings upon BABYLON THE GREAT who fall away and go into apostasy at the end of the age.
Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that that apostasy/falling away would have to occur first in order for the man of lawlessness to exalt himself. In other words the exaltation and worship of the beast/the man of lawlessness would occur as the result of the falling away.
Just some things to ponder as you study.
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 5, 2017 9:28:34 GMT -6
Hi faye! Thank you for the extra info. I have a question to ask: From what exactly do those ten kings fall away?
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 5, 2017 10:50:52 GMT -6
I'm getting some popcorn, as I think this one will be one for me to observe rather than participate in very much! Good discussion, keep going.
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