Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 4:18:53 GMT -6
Because I'm right now confronted with several occurrences of this false teaching/movement, I would like to put this video from Amir Tsarfati here. He discusses several characteristics of this movement with Michael Nissim, a Jewish messianic pastor in Israel.
This video is very helpful to get an overview over NAR and what the core doctrines and characteristics of this movement are, and has helped me a lot to get a better understanding of it.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jan 7, 2020 6:34:50 GMT -6
@reepicheep thanks for sharing. A church I once attended teetered on several elements of this teaching where "Elijah must come first" and there would be a "great revival ushering the return of the Lord" but they were not professing to be the Apostles or greater than those from the beginning. Also that we (believers) would perform the same miracles and even greater. Very dangerous and biblically twisted/unsound.
This type of teaching is out there, around us. I feel that I need to be able to help not only those caught in this lie, but those who are non-believing to hear truth and not heresy like this. These things trouble my soul brother
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jan 7, 2020 9:41:52 GMT -6
Only got about twenty minutes of it watched as I have some stuff I have to go do this morning, but I will watch the rest at lunch. I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I had seen the video but hadn't watched it yet. I had to deal with some of this stuff in the last church I was at. It wasn't coming in through the pulpit (but he wasn't stopping it either) it was coming in through the worship music first. We had a change in who was leading our music, and I noticed a change in the music. We were now singing lots of Jesus Culture, Hillsong, Bethel Church. His friend came and lead music with him a couple of Sunday's. He was involved in IHOP Kansas City. Kind of helped understand where some of this was coming from. It's not NAR, but Jesus Calling was handed out in the high school Sunday School (and new Bibles that had bad theology in the study notes, but that just shows the lack of discernment in that church). I brought all of it up to one of the elders and to our pastor. "As long as the lyrics are fine" was the response. But they aren't fine. So we left. (This pastor also attended Willow Creek conference and had no trouble listening to the session by TD Jakes, a modalist - That was really what finally made us leave.) I gotta run, but I'll be back to listen to the rest.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jan 7, 2020 12:19:35 GMT -6
so, the end was basically what I was dealing with at the previous church. It was all about experience, how the music makes you feel. They started having praise and prayer nights. A friend of mine went and said it was so loud and the music was picked to create an emotional experience. The people leading it made a joke of it and had a bowl of ear plugs available. And when things were said, their reply was, "If you don't like it, don't come."
One thing that is seriously lacking in the church and society is a healthy fear of God. The more I read the Bible, the more I see how magnificent and holy and righteous He is. But that's the thing...people aren't reading the Bible - they are trusting in man to teach them truth. And it leads down very dangerous paths.
I had also run across the Kundalini spirit when I was researching yoga. Scary stuff that they getting into.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jan 7, 2020 12:33:03 GMT -6
I was going to add...it's really worth a person's time to watch the whole video. There is so much wrong with the NAR movement. But if you can't, here are some things that they talked about:
Some of the beliefs are: These new apostles have received revelations from God. They are to conquer certain "dominions" of society (like government, education, business) That these new apostles will be greater than the previous ones. That there is a generation which will change the world and usher in the kingdom for Christ. The church is not healthy without the leading of these new apostles. There will be a new Pentecost that is going to be greater than the previous one. ...a great revival to get the world ready for Jesus to return. Jesus emptied Himself and was only man when He was on the earth. That we have the same power as Christ (even to control nature). ...it diminishes God and elevates man. Jesus had to go to hell and fight the demons and be born again. It's all about experience, emotions, angels, supernatural stuff.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jan 7, 2020 13:47:42 GMT -6
I was going to add...it's really worth a person's time to watch the whole video. There is so much wrong with the NAR movement. But if you can't, here are some things that they talked about: Some of the beliefs are: These new apostles have received revelations from God. They are to conquer certain "dominions" of society (like government, education, business) That these new apostles will be greater than the previous ones. That there is a generation which will change the world and usher in the kingdom for Christ. some Pentecostals too The church is not healthy without the leading of these new apostles. There will be a new Pentecost that is going to be greater than the previous one. ...a great revival to get the world ready for Jesus to return. some Pentecostals too Jesus emptied Himself and was only man when He was on the earth. That we have the same power as Christ (even to control nature). some Pentecostals too ...it diminishes God and elevates man. Jesus had to go to hell and fight the demons and be born again. partially with some PentecostalsIt's all about experience, emotions, angels, supernatural stuff. Interesting that the Pentecostal circuit in my area (that I am familiar with) have some similar beliefs as well.
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Jan 7, 2020 13:54:00 GMT -6
Each one of us have been deceived by a clever con-artist at one time or another; however, false doctrine seems to be the most sinister of all cons.
Like the doctrine of new apostles as stated in the video (that is clearly false), a clever con artist will convince anyone, and drag them to hell if given the opportunity.
That is, an apostle might have been a prophet in his own right; but, he is first and foremost a witness to the life of The Christ. In other words, the calling of apostle is a cut above the calling of a prophet because an apostle is given the honor of seeing Christ upon the earth with his own eyes; while Christ was in mortality. I can understand how these con-artists might convince people that an apostle can come along thousands of years after Christ's mortality since Paul was not with the original twelve. However, Paul was there during the life of Christ and most assuredly saw Christ teach. Secondly, consider that there were no apostles prior to the life of Christ upon the earth; therefore, it is reasonable that there no more apostles called upon the earth except those that personally witnessed the life of Jesus.
Understanding nuances in Christ's doctrine such as the apostles being witnesses to the life of Christ helps us avoid false doctrines. For that reason it is critical that we get to know Jesus and understand what he would do in any given circumstance. We should ask ourselves what would Jesus do, and by understanding his choices we can identify false doctrine.
In my opinion the foundation in Christ's teachings is that of belief; that no one should be forced to believe anything beyond what they choose.
Consequently, like birds of a feather, those whom seek truth will congregate with those whom seek truth, and conversely, those whom do not will be easy prey for the con artists.
One example is Israel of long ago who was told to sacrifice their children to God. Would Jesus ask anyone to kill their children? NO! Thus, it was and is a false doctrine. 2) Apostles called upon the earth whom did not witness with their own eyes Christ's mortality. False Doctrine 3) Baptism via sprinkling of water on the head. False Doctrine because Christ's baptism was full submersion. That is, what would Christ do? He chose full submersion therefore his doctrine is full submersion. 4) etc.
Post Script: Please consider any prophet of old; for example: Moses.
Did Moses stand in the presence of God upon the earth? Yes.
Was Moses an apostle? NO.
Why was Moses not an apostle? Because he was not called to be a witness to the mortal life of The Christ.
Please notice that the witnesses (apostles) to the mortal life of the Savior gave us the NT, while the prophets gave us the OT. Is it possible to have more prophets? Perhaps. Is it possible to have more apostles? NO!
Actually, I think an apostle is more than a witness to the mortal life of the Savior but also a witness to his death and resurrection.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jan 7, 2020 14:23:51 GMT -6
One thing I struggle with at times is remembering that I was once deceived and am not above being duped. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood...Lord have mercy on those lost in movements like this and shine your light in darkened hearts! For Your glory
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Jan 8, 2020 11:23:19 GMT -6
Growing up catholic, I was always under the impression that the apostles were only those twelve that Jesus chose from His disciples, period, no one else could or should have that title. Didn't question why or what it means. When my wife and I joined the WWCoG, Herbert W. Armstrong was referred to as an apostle. This made me skeptical, but the foundation beliefs were pretty solid and I figured, 'whatever'. Now, having actually looked it up on my own, it does help understanding, but it is not a salvation issue. It's just a label; Apostle in Greek is literally "one who is sent off", which is exactly what Jesus did. He sent off(not right away) certain disciples that He knew He could count on to deliver the Gospel. So, in my mind, in this day and age, contemporary Christianity makes the title out to be some lofty position within a denomination and that that person should be put on some sort of pedestal when actually a true apostle would/should, in all humility, impart to those he/she teaches to refrain from doing so. "I'm just a guy sent to deliver the Gospel! Worship Jesus the Messiah!! All glory to Him."
|
|
|
Post by Servant on Jan 8, 2020 14:18:13 GMT -6
It reminds me of the old church NAC (New Apostolic Church). I don't go there anymore because I don't agree with their teachings.
I quote from Wikipedia,
Apostles:
Chief Apostle The Chief Apostle is the head of the church. His position is equivalent to the one Apostle Peter had 2,000 years ago in the circle of the Apostles. Traditionally only the Chief Apostle appoints new apostles although at times of necessity, such as during World War II, he can commission an apostle to ordain other apostles. The Chief Apostle is only the head of the church here on earth; Jesus Christ is the head of all souls. Jean-Luc Schneider is the current Chief Apostle.
District Apostles Those working closest to the Chief Apostle are the District Apostles. They are the heads of the different regional churches and are assisted by other Apostles. Together with the Chief Apostle, they provide global unity in church doctrine and in pastoral care. District Apostles can serve Holy Communion to the departed, as well as baptise and seal the departed.
Apostles The apostle ministry is a very important ministry in the NAC. Only apostles can carry out the gift of the Holy Spirit and ordain new ministries. Presently there are 360 or more working apostles worldwide. Apostles can also assist their District Apostle in the commission of District Apostle Helper. District Apostle Helpers can serve Holy Communion to the departed, as well as baptise and seal the departed.
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Jan 8, 2020 21:14:01 GMT -6
The LDS church has their apostles and the senior thereof is the church president. These 12 apostles and the 3 of the 1st presidency (church president and 2 counselors) are like gods in the LDS church. So there is a total of 15 apostles and these are called (derived) from a group called the 1st Quorum of the Seventy. During Brigham Young's day (approx. 1845 to 1860) he set up ten or more quorums of seventy. I think the LDS church also has "area representatives" that may be from the quorums of seventy. Some quorums of seventy may have 70 members but some quorums may not. Brigham Young created and used the ten or more quorums of seventy so-as to take control of the LDS church after Smith was killed (1846 ish). They brow-beat Young's competition into submission. Many of these "seventy" at Young's time were teenage boys. Now however, the LDS church allows only wealthy educated men (evidence by tithing payments) to be in the quorums of seventy. All members of the seventy as well as the 15 apostles are prophets in the LDS church and the church president is called a prophet, seer, and revelator. There may only be 2 quorums of seventy at this time. As you can see from the information provided, the LDS church has an organizational structure wherein the apostles preside and the senior apostle that has been an apostle the longest is the prophet, seer, and revelator. However, these men are not really prophets nor are they apostles except in the administrative structure of the LDS church. In fact, many I would say are liars and thieves and the basest of people; perhaps lower than swine. However, they present themselves as Christ's representatives here upon the earth; like servants of God. It is a great racket for the wealthy members of the LDS church. Likewise, all churches can establish their organizational structure and give certain positions the title of prophet, apostle, etc. So let's say there are 100 such churches and there are a total of 1200 apostles each having a slightly different take on the various aspects of the gospel message. Wow! How about let's keep it simple an accept the prophets that God gave us in the OT and the apostles that God gave us in the NT. Other than that, there are no other prophets nor are there any other apostles called for Christ's followers. However, if the various denominations wish to have prophets and apostles then so be it and these are not for the body of the church but for some branch or group. Nevertheless, it does not mean that these men are prophets and apostles like those of the OT and NT but a branch doctrine like that of the LDS in my opinion. In fact, are we not to have deacons, priests, and so forth. Like Billy Graham was not a prophet nor was he an apostle but an evangelist. "Evangelists Billy Graham in Düsseldorf (1954) Some churches use the title evangelist of a minister who travels from town to town and from church to church, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. In this sense the person is differentiated from a local pastor, with a ministry grounded in a specific community. Some denominations have a formally recognized office of evangelist as part of their ministry, such as the commissioned evangelists of the Church of England and some other Anglican churches. Many Christians of various theological perspectives would call themselves evangelists because they are spreaders of the gospel. Many churches believe one of their major functions is to function as evangelists to spread the evangelist belief that Jesus is savior of humanity. The title of evangelist is often associated with those who lead large meetings like those of Billy Graham, Luis Palau and J.A. Pérez, possibly in tents or existing church buildings, or those who address the public in street corner preaching, which targets listeners who happen to pass nearby. It can also be done in small groups or even on a one-to-one basis, but actually it is simply one who spreads the gospel. Increasingly, the internet enables anyone to become an Internet evangelist." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EvangelismSo what is the difference between an apostle and an evangelist? All apostles are evangelists but all evangelists are not apostles. So again, what is the difference? One is a witness to the mortal life of the Savior as in those whom were there but were called to witness and we have their records in the NT. Think of it like this; there were thousands of disciples that witnessed Jesus' mortal life and only twelve were called to be apostles; the remainder were evangelists. Secondly, the Savior himself selected Paul after Judas fell. Thus, Jesus himself selected his twelve special witnesses; the twelve apostles. Post Script: In my opinion, Peter was an apostle and as-directed by Jesus the head of the church in his day. Secondly, these two roles of Peter were not relinquished but are still in force to this very day. That is, Peter is still an apostle and he is still the head of the Savior's church. Is there any evidence suggesting otherwise. For example, Jesus was the Savior while in mortality and after his mortal death he is still the Savior. Likewise, Peter was called by Jesus to be an apostle and leader of the church while in mortality and Peter is still called to those two positions of honor and responsibility (in my opinion). Did he not give us the Book of Mark from which much information in the Book of Matthew was derived leading the Jews as well as gentile to the Savior to this very day. Secondly, Paul recognized the authority of Peter in his work and at no time did he suggest that Peter's role was gone upon his mortal death. That is, there is no other name given under which the head of the Savior's church resides: only Peter.
|
|