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Post by bruce on Nov 6, 2019 12:41:48 GMT -6
Hi all, I posted some of these speculations over a month ago when we passed the two year anniversary of the great sign of Rev 12. However, I have continued to think about how all these signs might still possibly point to a 2019 rapture. This is all speculation and not date setting. I can see plenty of scenarios where we soldier on into the 2020s while we wait on the Lord. That said, I am increasingly focused on Christmas Day of this year as a possibility, and I would like to lay out some of my reasons. First of all, many of you may remember that we had a sign in the sun on New Year's Day 2019. NASA released a photo of the sun from January 1, 2019 that appeared to show a baby in the womb. I don't know about the rest of you, but I couldn't help but wonder: is this a sign that the "birth" (i.e. rapture) will happen in 2019? It was a pretty good day to deliver a message like that. A few weeks later there was the final blood moon in a patter that had stretched back to 2010 (the start of this decade which is now ending) and included the tetrad of 2014/15. During that eclipse a meteor struck the moon creating a flash, also seen by many as a sign of events soon to pass. I believe those signs were significant, and will continue to believe so even if we find ourselves in 2020, but still being in 2019, I would like to believe that just maybe they were letting us know that this would be the year. Secondly, as I discussed in my post a while back, the signs in the heavens in 2017 extended beyond the picture we saw on September 23. After that picture of a woman in travail, Jupiter proceeded to exit the constellation, meet up with Venus, and then move into Libra on December 25, perhaps depicting the raptured church approaching God's throne as described in Revelation 12:5. If two years is a Biblically significant time frame, then December 25, 2019 will be two years since this possible celestial depiction of part of Revelation 12:5. Thirdly, some have compared the feasts of Israel to a pregnancy with Passover representing the conception, Pentecost representing the baby taking visible form, Feast of Trumpets representing when the baby develops hearing, Tabernacles representing changes in the baby's blood and lungs which would allow it to live outside the womb, and finally, Hanukkah representing when the baby would be born. This year Hanukkah starts the evening of December 22 and so Christmas Day will fall during the 8 day feast of Hanukkah. Was the meteor hitting the moon during the eclipse a sign of the soon to begin "pregnancy" at Passover of 2019? Will the "birth" be in December? (Prophecy in the News did a video on this years ago when JR Church was still alive. It might still be on YouTube) Finally, if one counts the days between September 23, 2017 and December 25, 2019 you will get 823. Strong's Greek for 823 is the word "atomos" usually translated as "moment" in English. It appears once in the New Testament in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which I will quote below: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." In a way Christmas would seem like the perfect day for the rapture. It's hiding in plain sight as the most notable day on the gentile calendar. It's the celebration of a birth. For churches that observe Advent, it is preceded by a season dedicated to reflections on waiting for deliverance. Advent readings frequently include passages about John the Baptist and selections from the Book of Revelation. Even though the season ends with the story of Jesus birth, until that day the focus is in Jesus' coming in a generic way that could just as easily be applied to his second advent. Since the rapture is for the Church and not Israel, wouldn't this be the perfect day for it? Just a thought. I came across this article last year that lays out other reasons that a Christmas rapture might just make a lot of sense. See below: www.wordcrave.com/2018/12/13/christmas-is-coming/A couple of final points concerning geopolitics. As far as I can tell, somewhere in the early to mid-December time frame Israel will know if it will be able to form a government or will need to hold a third round of elections. There's a chance that somewhere along in there the Trump administration might find one final opportunity to release the Deal of the Century before Christmas and before Trump has to turn his focus to re-election. The UK is also having December elections hoping that a new government will break the Brexit impasse. I will continue to watch to see if other world events appear to line up for a December pivot point. If so, that would seem to add to the other signs pointing to a Christmas exit for the church. So there's enough pointing to Christmas 2019 to get me a little excited. If the day comes and goes, it won't be the first time I am disappointed that the rapture didn't happen on a day I was looking towards. I have plenty of experience now at moving on from high watch days. That said, it seems to me like an exciting possibility.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 7, 2019 8:48:23 GMT -6
hello bruce, welcome to the forum! I like all your reminders of the stellar events for sure. Most agree that the heavenlies are proclaiming something. I have one question though in the scripture quote above. Between now and Christmas, where to you have other trumps? When it says LAST trump that at least says to me there is one prior. You can not have a last one if there are none before them. Just curious.
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Post by bruce on Nov 7, 2019 10:14:25 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, I confess that the trumpets have puzzled me a bit. For a long time I had assumed the Last Trump was a reference to the Feast of Trumpets. A couple of years ago, however, I did a deep study of that and decided that we cannot be certain of that based on what scripture tells us. It is far from certain that St. Paul's hearers would have understood "Last Trump" to be a reference to the Feast of Trumpets (which may actually be the Feast of Shouting depending on how you translate the Hebrew in which case it has nothing to do with trumpets). If it is not a reference to Feast of Trumpets, then presumably it is a trump that God will sound whenever He pleases. We see what could be a template in Numbers 10 where Israel is told to craft two silver trumpets. The first trumpet signals Israel to gather and the second (last) trumpet signals for them to move. Perhaps there will be two trumpets at the rapture, one that gathers us together, and one that moves us to be with God in the skies. Or perhaps the first trump raises the dead and the last trump transforms the living snatching us to heaven. Maybe they happen consecutively so close together that combined they still only take an instant. Regardless, since it is the trumpet of God, I don't think it is something that we have to be looking for on earth as a signal. It will be a signal from heaven.
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Post by bruce on Nov 7, 2019 10:21:27 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , one other thing, if we look at the first few chapters of Revelation, we see that John hears two trumpets of God. The first is in Revelation 1:10-11 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. The second is in Revelation 4:1. This second one is what summons John to heaven, just like the second (last?) trumpet we will hear will also summon us to heaven. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2019 10:55:11 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , one other thing, if we look at the first few chapters of Revelation, we see that John hears two trumpets of God. The first is in Revelation 1:10-11 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. The second is in Revelation 4:1. This second one is what summons John to heaven, just like the second (last?) trumpet we will hear will also summon us to heaven. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Hello Bruce - reading a long a little and although this might seem a bit nit picky I want to point out that what John heard was not trumpets it was the voice that sounded like a trumpet. He was describing how loud the sound was, not the sound itself There appears to me to be a distinct difference when reading 1Thes 4:16 (ESV) as the 'sounds' coming during the rapture. It is the shout - who shouts? Is it the Lord or the archangel? It doesnt seem clear to me. Also the voice of the archangel...is this the one shouting? We can infer that but it doesnt specifically state that. What I also want to point out though is that the KJV text does not state the trumpet is blown, again the inference is noise (voice, shout, trumpet) but that is not implicitly stated. The ESV is different stating the trumpet is blown. For comparison here is Youngs Literal too 4:16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
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Post by bruce on Nov 7, 2019 11:36:52 GMT -6
mike, I think your point just demonstrates why the whole trumpet business can be a bit confusing. When we see trumpets from heaven in the Bible, it's not clear if they are literal heavenly trumpets blown by God, or if God's voice just sounds like a trumpet, or is just very loud. It's also unclear, to me at least, whether Thessalonians and Corinthians imply a literal trumpet, or are simply implying that God's voice sounds like a trumpet. I am pretty certain that the trumpet judgments are different from the rapture trumpet, but beyond that I am open to interpretations. It's also worth noting that Moses heard "the voice of a trumpet" when he ascended Mount Sinai in Exodus 19:19. Whatever these heavenly trumpet noises are, I have assumed they are the type of thing we are listening for at the rapture. One more data point to throw out there, on the day of Pentecost, the apostles heard "a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting". Luke does not use the word "trumpet" but trumpets are wind instruments. I wonder if this was indeed the first trumpet.
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Post by fitz on Nov 7, 2019 18:10:18 GMT -6
One more data point to throw out there, on the day of Pentecost, the apostles heard "a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting". Luke does not use the word "trumpet" but trumpets are wind instruments. I wonder if this was indeed the first trumpet. Actually, trumpets are "brass" instruments...as are french horns, trombones, tubas, etc. "Wind" instruments are clarinets, oboes, flutes, saxophones, etc., most have a delicate reed for the mouthpiece whereas brass instruments have a heavy metal mouthpiece.
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Post by bruce on Nov 7, 2019 18:42:53 GMT -6
fitz, true, this is how we categorize instruments today (I used to play saxophone which is technically a woodwind instrument because it has a reed, so I am familiar with instrument categories) but the brass instruments do require "wind" in the sense that you blow into them, unlike percussion instruments. Not sure if its a stretch to say there may have been a heavenly trumpet at Pentecost or not. I was just throwing that out there. I am open to ideas about when the first trump will sound/did sound.
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Post by bruce on Nov 14, 2019 12:58:05 GMT -6
One additional observation in favor of Christmas Day: In 2019 Noah's flood is observed on November 15 (17 Cheshvan). As of this writing that is tomorrow. If you read Genesis 7:17 it seems to imply that the ark was lifted up after 40 days of flood waters. November 15 + 40 days = December 25 (which is the date of Kislev 27 in 2019).
Genesis 7:17 states:
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
I know there is much discussion about whether Noah is a type of the Church or of Tribulation saints. If the former, then this could be symbolic of the rapture. If it's the latter, then I don't know what it would symbolize. I personally think that some of these types and shadows of the Old Testament can have multiple symbolic applications, so I am comfortable with the idea that Noah can foreshadow both the Church and Tribulation believers. It's hard not to see Enoch as a type for the Church, and since he comes before Noah, that would seem to imply that Noah represents something else (or maybe not). At any rate, I still see this convergence on December 25, but I must confess that other watchers have not focused in on this day which makes me question it. However much I personally see evidence for a given time frame, if it is something God is revealing, then I tend to believe that other watchers would see it too. Then again, many of us thought September 2017 was the time frame, and it wasn't, so who knows what we will know before the day arrives. It could be foreseen by one or two of us, a significant number of us, or it could take all of us by surprise. Whether we are raptured on December 25 or not, though, we can give thanks with the rest of the Church on that day that God gave His son for us so that we can be with Him when that day does finally arrive.
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 14, 2019 13:12:20 GMT -6
Don't know if it means anything, but on December 25 of this year, 2019, from the POV of Jerusalem, the sun will rise in full annular eclipse. Hours later the Moon will occult Jupiter. That is, according to Stellarium. Just sayin'.
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Post by brad on Dec 4, 2019 9:42:38 GMT -6
Don't know if it means anything, but on December 25 of this year, 2019, from the POV of Jerusalem, the sun will rise in full annular eclipse. Hours later the Moon will occult Jupiter. That is, according to Stellarium. Just sayin'. Sorry Stormy! Looks like you and I were pondering the same thing! Pretty amazing to watch this event in Stellarium... What I find amazing is that Jerusalem "just misses" the eclipse (by a few minutes), and some places on earth the moon will occult Jupiter during the eclipse because of the angle of viewing! A Lot going on here! Target rich environment for Stellarium Nerds like me!
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Post by bruce on Jan 7, 2020 15:01:18 GMT -6
So obviously 2019 is over and all the high watch dates, including Christmas are past. However, I have one final observation that is connected to Christmas 2019:
As noted before, Christmas was 823 days from the Revelation Sign of September 23, 2017 and Strong's Greek for 823 is "atomos" or "moment" from 1 Corinthians 15:52.
On the standard calendar used by Christians in the west, December 25 is when we remember Jesus' birth in Bethlehem as recorded in Luke and Matthew. In the Luke version the story continues for a few weeks. 8 days later Jesus is circumcised. This is observed on our calendar on January 1, New Year's Day. 33 days after that on the 40th day from Christmas, Mary takes Jesus to the temple to present Him to God and accomplish her purification. This is observed on February 2.
Luke 2:21-22 reads as follows:
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Mary and Joseph were attempting to satisfy the Law recorded in Leviticus 12. It is interesting also to cross reference this with Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
A lot of people have pointed out how Revelation 12 has a singular and plural fulfillment. The singular child would be Jesus and the plural is the Body of Christ. The singular woman is Mary and the plural is Israel, etc. The catching away is thought to have been Jesus' flight to Egypt and will be the Body of Christ's flight to Heaven at the rapture. However, the problem with that seems to be that Egypt doesn't seem to be a picture of God's throne. However, the temple in Jerusalem does seem like a picture of God's throne, and Jesus was presented there on the 40th day after his birth which we Christians typically mark on February 2.
So I checked the day counts and February 2, 2020 is 862 days after the Revelation 12 sign of September 23, 2017. It turns out that Strong's Greek for 862 is also found in 1 Corinthians 15:52. It is the word "aphthartos" which is translated as "incorruptible" or "imperishable". What are the chances that the Strong's Greek day count from September 23, 2017 to Christmas 2019 and the Presentation 2020 on the 40th day would both be found in that same rapture verse?
Whether or not the rapture happens on February 2, 2020, this looks like a sign to me.
If we keep reading in Luke we read about Simeon:
25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Notice how God revealed to Simeon that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. He saw him when Mary brought him to the temple 40 days after his birth. Will we also see Jesus before we die 40 days after the world remembers Jesus' birth?
Another interesting note about February 2 is that the date is a palindrome. No matter how you write it numerically it's the same forwards and backwards: 02-02-2020 or year first 2020-02-02. It may be easier to see if you remove the dashes: 02022020 or 20200202. I don't know if that is significant or not, but it is rare.
As 2020 has gotten underway there has been a lot of movement in geopolitics. By now I am sure everyone knows about the assassination of Soleimani by an American drone in Baghdad. Breaking today is the news that Trump's peace team is continuing to meet with officials in Israel and that there is a very good chance that he will now release his plan before the March 2 Israeli elections. If he is going to do that, he would probably have to do it no later than two to three weeks before to give the politicians time to incorporate it into their political campaigns. Could it be released on or around February 2? February 2 is also two days after Brexit which is January 31st. Here in the USA it is also Superbowl Sunday.
On January 1, 2019 we had a sign of a baby in the sun. Maybe that was a sign that 2019 was to be the year of the pregnancy and now, 2020 will be the year of the birth and/or catching up. We shall see. If nothing else, this seems to be another sign that we are getting very close.
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Post by bruce on Jan 28, 2020 12:44:33 GMT -6
The events of this week have made me think the February 2 scenario is more likely than ever. It remains a scenario and it is not my intention to date set at all, but many things would seem to fit for that date. In particular, now that the Deal of the Century has been released, the Arabs are gathering on Saturday to respond, and the Palestinian leader Abbas will be present. That's February 1! One scenario is that they will affirm the Deal of the Century causing the choruses of Peace and Safety to ring around the world now that the Deal has been unexpectedly accepted by both sides. We won't know if this is how things will play out for a few more days, but it's a scenario that I am watching. How appropriate, then would it be for our departure to happen the very next day on the Feast of the Presentation! Just as the Christ Child was presented to God in the temple, will the Body of Christ born again be presented to God in heaven? The day after the world agrees to the Deal of the Century with cries of peace and safety? It could be a Sunday morning rapture, or a Superbowl rapture. Events are moving quickly and I am convinced that we are close regardless of what happens this weekend, but it's a scenario that I am watching for. www.timesofisrael.com/arab-league-to-hold-urgent-meeting-on-trump-peace-plan/1 Thess 5 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
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Post by brad on Jan 29, 2020 9:02:08 GMT -6
Sounds plausible Bruce! I'm trying not to get too excited though... plenty of wiggle room though as we certainly don't see both sides believing peace is iminent... Saturday sounds great to me though!
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