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Post by kjs on May 21, 2019 11:12:05 GMT -6
I am placing this in the "Whatever" category -- because I do not believe it -- as it was reported. I believe Natan did have an experience -- however, I believe what he reports on the video is what he has been coached to say by the Rabbi (more than likely (in my opinion) because Natan saw Jesus and the Rabbi - forced him to hide that information)
Here is a link to a good Summary of the story .....
I will re-quote some of the Article here ....
Summary of Natan's Vision
So what does his vision predict? Here's a list:
1) After he died, he rose above the earth and saw a light that was full of love and security. He can’t properly explain how amazing this was.
2) Messiah has already here and is very well known. People will be very very surprised. (He seems to be alluding to Jesus but is afraid to say it as common among Jews and Muslims. A Jewish believer told me after listening to the interview, "Natan appears to have seen Jesus the Messiah and obviously feels threatened to give a full disclosure of the event. Another interesting thing is that he saw 'Messiah' and knows who it is and everyone else knows who it is too but to his listening audience (the Jews) he tells them that they would be very, very, surprised. Natan apparently knows from his statement the "Messiah's Name" but still omits it and not shares this most important and anticipated detail??? Again, this method of obfuscation is common among Jews and Muslims. In other words they are cowardly and basically deny Him as Peter did, thrice."
3) The war of Gog and Magog started Sept 11, 2015, and it will get much worse in the weeks or months to come.
4) There will be a huge world war that will eventually lead the nations of the world to unite and attack Israel and Jerusalem.
5) The leader of the free world is now Gog. Gog is none other than Barack Hussein Obama.
6) The whole war will last only about two weeks. (oops, that would have ended Sept 25th according to 5.!)
7) The Jews who did not keep Torah will die. The number will be in the millions. This is in addition to the non-Jews who will also perish.
8) Mt. Zion will split into two and the Messiah will be revealed. Messiah will be able to sense by smell who is a real God-fearing Jew and who is not.
9) Messiah will fight against Gog and kill him. Gog will be buried in Israel.
10) During the war, two atomic bombs will be shot at Israel and God will suspend them in the air for two weeks. (They will eventually fall on Tel Aviv and Haifa.)
11) Israel will be captured but the worthy will survive in Jerusalem.
12) Messiah will wear a garment that is stained in blood. The blood symbolizes all the Jews who were killed while righteous. Messiah will then take revenge on the nations of the world who have oppressed us throughout the years.
13) It will take a very long time to bury all the dead.
14) Only those who do really repent will survive.
15) Those who repent will inherit the highest level of heaven.
16) The Holy Temple will descend from heaven and there will be a resurrection of the dead. This will take time and not happen immediately.
17) It's a "matter of months" till the final redemption.
As one can see (simply at a quick read through) -- some appear close or actually spot on -- while others a really -- off.....
The article which I link to thinks it was delivered to Natan by evil-spirits.....
I on the other hand think -- he did have the experience -- but got brow-beat into fabricating part of it to appease the rabbi....
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Post by raindrop on May 21, 2019 14:44:49 GMT -6
kjs, As I am new to this forum - apologies for any typing blunders. May I preface my reply re Natan with some personal (from scripture) insights. I see things from a Jewish as well as a bible believing Christian perspective. I believe this qualifies me, in some way. The Jewish people are unique. From everyone else. We simply cannot approach Natan's message from heaven from a Christian perspective without taking into account the following: The Jewish people are still under the law. They still belong to Almighty God. His covenant with them will stand for eternity. The Jewish people are blinded in part. Allow yourself to believe Natan's message for awhile - for the sake of this thread. Natan arrives in heaven and faces a vast heavenly court. This is a first for that court too. As far as we know. The court watches as Natan is judged. Cheering for his good deeds and triumphs. Groaning at his sins. Natan reported that they were all crying and mourning about the coming judgement that was soon to come upon Israel and the world. They talked about it a lot - which Natan interpreted as urgency. Natan's opinion that this judgement was imminent was formed because of the amount of anguish being shown. Natan said that Messiah couldn't be someone who is dead. Impossible for that to be. Therefore, he could only conclude that Messiah must be here. On earth. Natan does not know that our Lord Jesus rose from the dead. In a physical body. Alive in the flesh. Hallelujah. Natan's assumption does not contradict scripture. It just shows ignorance. If anything, Natan's insistence that Messiah cannot be someone who is dead, confirms the fact that Christ has Risen. He conquered death! Natan's message from heaven was aimed, primarily, at the Jewish people. Warning of the coming danger. Urging them to study Torah combined with acts of kindness. A luke warm, begrudging type of religious observance would not hack it. The Messiah will use His senses to feel what is inside every person's heart. Natan used the sense of smell to attempt to describe this power the Messiah has. Remember - this was a 15 year old boy without a rich vocabulary.
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Post by raindrop on May 21, 2019 15:26:34 GMT -6
kjs, At the time of Natan's visit to heaven, Barack Obama was POTUS. I too. have been waiting for Obama to lurch back into view because of Natan's testimony. However, I now tend to believe that Natan was being shown which country the future Gog is King of. I still have a feeling that Obama will show up again though. I may very well be wrong. Natan said that the war had already started...back in September 2015. Well - it HAD already started! The Syria nightmare kicked in that year. Iran, Turkey, Russia. All there on Israel's border. Obama cemented a nuclear deal with Iran that year. Which is why we have a cocky, emboldened Iran today. Iran have been able to fund all sorts of proxy armies, thanks to Obama. Iran has become so threatening that Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc., are very fearful. Natan then went on to say that Gog would bring his whole army to the region. Now, I know that Iran, Turkey, Russia et al have some pretty serious weaponry tied up in Syria. But, none of it compares to the armada that the USA has just sent - and is still sending. WW3, according to Natan's testimony, will begin with a "Boom". A security incident that will kick off the entire region. Let's face it - this is not difficult to believe given the current trip-wire tensions there. The nations will all be fighting each other first. Then will unite and attack Israel. I will address the other points tomorrow as it's late here in the UK. But, allow me to leave you with these thoughts. It is the messing with Israel that will incur Almighty God's anger. The "peace plan" or Deal of the Century WILL require sacrifices from Israel. Land wise. Border wise. We can bet on that. They can cover it with flowery flattery - poetic prose, lace it with perfume and tie it with a silk ribbon but that won't change a thing. The POTUS knows this. He is a very. very smart man. He "gifted" Jerusalem to Israel. Before the eyes of the world. But - he will expect much in return. Because that's the way it works. Like it or not - the coming peace deal will be awful. Only the USA can start and end the coming world war. American military might is no fairy tale. There is not one country that can compare. Not one. There is also no other world leader who has engaged with Israel as President Trump has. He is the mover and the shaker. The King Pin. Newly minted gold coins have been created - as well as a town in the Golan to be named after him. The accolades don't stop. Israel trusts him completely. Good night to all. Thank you so much Natalie and kjs. I finally got myself registered!
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Post by boraddict on May 21, 2019 21:15:12 GMT -6
kjs , you are correct that some of the summary is "really off." It seemed not to be analytical but very judgmental. Let's consider that the tribulation did start in Sept. 2015 then the count backyards by 7 years gives us Sept 2008 as a critical month and that is (approx.) when the infusion came to stabilize the economy, and another 7 years is 9/11. So if we go froward from Sept. 2015 then at Sept. 2017 is the great sign at the two year mark into the tribulation with one year six months remaining to bring us to March 2019 as the midpoint of the seven years. This would mean at March 2020 we are one year past the midpoint, and then at March 2021 we are two years past the midpoint, and at March 2022 we are three years past the midpoint with six months to go to the end at Sept. 2022. If this is correct then we are now two months past the midpoint with three years and four months remaining till the end. This could all fit into the the timeline very nicely. Especially when the 70th year of Israel becoming a state ended at May 2019 that is the perfect midpoint "item." Just being off by two months is perhaps of no consequence when considering the overall timeline (March 2018 through March 2019 midpoint as the 70th year of Israel becoming a state). It would mean that the 70th year of Israel becoming a state ends at the midpoint (approximately).
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Post by boraddict on May 21, 2019 21:51:10 GMT -6
raindrop , I did want to respond to your statement that "The Jewish people are unique." However, while considering all the things that I would like to say, there is one thing that stands out; they have suffered enough. Just my personal opinion: Those of Judah who join Ephraim that are the Christians will find their Savior.
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Post by raindrop on May 22, 2019 3:39:39 GMT -6
kjs, raindrop, boraddict, Amos 3:7 says that Surely the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets. In fact - Natan's experience reminds me of when John the Revelator was called up to heaven to witness was was to come hereafter. Revelation 4:1. I do agree that the Jewish people have suffered terribly. But, they were shown Messiah Jesus first. They were given 3.5 precious years of our Lord Jesus' ministry. Every possible sign was given for them to recognise their Messiah. They rejected Jesus' offer of freedom from the law. However, God's covenant with the Jewish people will stand for eternity. If they won't voluntarily repent, Almighty God will force them to repent. Hence the coming war on Jerusalem, Israel. As they have chosen to remain under the law - the original covenant - then they are expected to adhere to every jot and tittle of that law. Keeping the Sabbath holy is a HUGE one that Almighty God expects them to keep. Wearing tzitzit for example. This law is in Numbers 15: 30 to 40. There are so many laws throughout the Old Testament - too many to show here. I will leave a link to a Messianic Jewish website that covers the law of tzitzit. You will be fascinated. We, who have wed ourselves to Lord Jesus, are free from the laws of the Old Covenant. That's what immediately struck me when watching Natan's testimony. He was taken to a Jewish court. He was judged. We don't have to go through judgement. Our sins have been washed clean away by the redeeming blood of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. The difference is incredible. We will not be put through the harrowing judgement that Natan was. Praise our LORD and Saviour. The vast amount of people who appear in heaven in Revelation 7:9, have washed their robes in the redeeming blood of the lamb. We are seen as without sin. That's how Almighty God sees us. It never fails to blow me away. Israel is our prophetic guide as to where we are on God's timeline. Whatever happens to Israel, affects ALL God's people. We are urged to WATCH. And as all the things predicted are coming to pass before our very eyes - we are to look up, for our redemption draws nigh. www.messianicjews.com.au/articles/details/3/Tassels-and-Tzitzit-A-Research-Study-Paper
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Post by raindrop on May 22, 2019 4:36:28 GMT -6
kjs, raindrop, boraddict, We are told that the Jewish people have been blinded in part - as a result of not recognising their Messiah the first time. Natan was not permitted to know who the Messiah is. Lord Jesus was not fully revealed to him. Natan is under the old covenant. But - the young man was absolutely sure that Messiah would be revealed to EVERYONE. I am quite sure that the shock and surprise will be gigantic when the Jewish people realise what they have missed all these years. They will mourn and weep. When they look upon the one whom they have pierced. Zechariah 12:10 says... And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. In fact - we are told that the Jewish people will be envious of Christians. Us "goy" . The Apostle Paul explains this beautifully in Romans 11. Reading the entire chapter clarifies everything for us. Highlighting Romans 11:11-12 where Paul is addressing believers in Jesus but talking about the unbelieving Jews - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring?" Romans 11 continues on to emphasise that all Israel will be saved. We are told to bless Israel - always. Those who don't but curse her instead, will receive curses back. It is a grave mistake to think that Natan received satanic messages. Just because some don't understand the entire picture. It's a terrible thing to say, without being 100% sure if this analysis is true. And to make accusations against Rabbi Rami Levy re "coaching" Natan not to reveal the identity of Messiah is to do him a great disservice. Thank the Lord God that Rabbi Levy took Natan very seriously and brought his message from heaven to the world. Natan's message was an urgent call to the Jewish people to repent. He laid out the horrors he was shown in heaven. The terrible, terrible judgements. Natan emphasised that repentance can happen in a second. For Christians, Natan's message showed us what to look out for re the Gog Magog alliance and war. He identified the country of Gog. He told us that Gog would bring his whole army over to the region. This has happened. We are on the cusp of WW3.
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Post by raindrop on May 22, 2019 5:14:37 GMT -6
kjs, raindrop, boraddict, Natan's description of Messiah Jesus included his perception that Messiah repented. And, that ever since He repented, He has not committed even one transgression. In other words, Messiah is sinless. As for the "repent" part - I see this as our Lord's baptism where the Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove. That is when His ministry began. What Natan perceived as Messiah repenting was, in fact, the moment that the Holy Spirit came upon our Lord Jesus. Matthew 3:16-17 says "As soon as Jesus was baptised, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"
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Post by mike on May 22, 2019 7:40:51 GMT -6
kjs , raindrop , boraddict , Natan's description of Messiah Jesus included his perception that Messiah repented. And, that ever since He repented, He has not committed even one transgression. In other words, Messiah is sinless. As for the "repent" part - I see this as our Lord's baptism where the Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove. That is when His ministry began. What Natan perceived as Messiah repenting was, in fact, the moment that the Holy Spirit came upon our Lord Jesus. Matthew 3:16-17 says "As soon as Jesus was baptised, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!" Raindrop - welcome to the forum. My viewpoint on topics similar to this is that they must measure up to the Word. When dreams and visions are not in harmony they are either caused by preconceived thoughts, notions, ideas - pepperoni pizza - or deception/demonic activity. Above in Red I highlight what you had stated this boy dreamed (or a portion of it). While its possible the boy had no idea that this statement is false, it is still false. It also appears to me you are trying to make this dream fit into the Word, which (personally) I suggest not doing. Did Jesus have to repent of anything ever? No. Repenting does not remove past sin. Repenting means change your mind about the way you view things. Isnt this why John (the baptist) was preaching in this manner? Wasnt he telling those who were expecting their savior king to come defeat the (Roman) enemy to change their mind about how they viewed the coming Lord? I think he was warning those who were self-righteous to check their hearts and recognize the Messiah in front of them. So this dream about Jesus repenting is (again my viewpoint) heresy. Jesus was blameless. The Messiah they should be expecting will be the glorious (military-type) king, however their initial rejection has opened the door for people like me to enter in
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Post by mike on May 22, 2019 8:03:12 GMT -6
Ya know raindrop - I dont have a lot of time to response 'nicely' so please dont take this the wrong way but does satan disguise himself as angel of light? what better way to further blind and deceive the Jews further than to lead them in a direction away from truth with things like this.
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Post by raindrop on May 22, 2019 8:54:09 GMT -6
mike, Yes - your reply was abrupt and a tad dismissive but you look like a jolly nice chap in your photograph . As I said - Natan's message was given to him for the Jewish people. I understand what you are saying regarding everything must fit in with the Word of God. As pointed out - Natan was a 15 year old boy who struggled to find the words to describe what he saw and heard. A lot of people have a problem with the message that Natan delivered. For many reasons. One being that it throws out the idea of a man-made, re-built temple. Natan testified that the Temple will descend from heaven, The 2nd thing that his message implies is that everything will happen rather quickly. Putting the 7 year trib theory into question. And, of course a mid point forced cessation of the sacrifices by the AC. These are long held beliefs, held by highly esteemed Christian scholars. I can totally see how this message would cause disbelief and resentment. Which, by the way, was oozing from your reply. Seriously - no hard feelings. . It is not imperative to believe Natan's vision. We are saved. But I believe it was an urgent warning as to what is soon to come. Christian persecution has reached almost genocidal levels in certain parts of the world. It's clear to me that tribulation has been going on for quite a few years now. The whole world will soon be feeling it - not just watching it or reading about it. When we see armies encamped around Jerusalem, we are to know that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20. The world's super powers are all there now. Jerusalem, Israel is a hot potato with those nations. Iran's hatred of the USA and Israel has no bounds. All the players are in place. I await the outbreak of WW3 any day now. Praying always for the peace of Jerusalem.
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Post by mike on May 22, 2019 9:29:25 GMT -6
mike , Yes - your reply was abrupt and a tad dismissive but you look like a jolly nice chap in your photograph . If you only knew the half of it...I am pretty poor at communicating what is in my head both in speech and writing. The reason I am one of maybe two-three people with their actual face in the avatar is because of an old thread where we were talking about conspiracy theories and as a jolly chap, I took it to the next level. In my mind I thought "everyone is really going to think I'm crazy so I should at least have a real photo to help counter my craziness
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Post by stormyknight on May 22, 2019 11:12:53 GMT -6
May I interject something here? And this is totally from my heart. When it comes to dreams and visions, we must take into account the person's speculation or opinion or interpretation having an effect on the dream/vision as it is verbalized. Everyone's perception is different. We also have to take into account that the devil will do what ever he can to mess with the interpretation. We must rely on the Holy Spirit to guide our attention to the grains of truth within the dream/vision and to ignore what is not true and to discern what it speculation/opinion. It has been awhile since I watched the video, but I remember thinking that the whole thing had been rehearsed. From watching his body language, I do think that Natan was influenced and was uncomfortable having his story changed. If this dream/vision was truly from God the Father, then the truth is in there. How do we know it is from God? We pray and ask for discernment and understanding. Repeatedly if necessary. Have you ever watched a video of someone claiming to prophecy or tell a dream and you "just know" that everything this person is saying is blatantly false? Isn't that the Holy Spirit giving us discernment? There is a popular phrase that I like to apply to getting prayers answered. "Wait for it" "Wait patiently for the LORD; be strong and courageous. Wait patiently for the LORD." Psalm 27:14
mike, I was a little disconcerted also about the usage of the word 'repented' applied to Jesus Christ, but if you put it in the context, and maybe raindrop can help me out here(I'm assuming from your statement that you see things from a Jewish perspective as well as Christian to mean you were born/raised Jewish?), to a Jew with the veil in front of their eyes, the need to be baptized might possibly be lost on them. To repent, I don't know. Do Jews today think of the word 'repent' like 'to change ones mind' or 'I'm sorry for my evil way of life and and I want to change and do right from now on"? They know the story, so they know this "Jesus" was baptized, and John the Baptist was calling for repentance and baptism, so if Jesus got baptized, then He must have repented? Though we know He had no sin in Him. Perhaps it was the only word Natan could think of for that moment when Jesus was baptized. Or perhaps he was coerced into using that word. We don't know.
I just wanted to put that out there. I know a certain decorum must be upheld to keep things civil, but it hurts my heart when things get tense. As T-Rex from Toy Story said, "I don't like confrontation!"
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Post by raindrop on May 22, 2019 12:48:29 GMT -6
stormyknight, I was prodded to bring up Natan's vision when I saw and heard that Pres. Trump was sending a vast army over to the Middle East to confront Iran. kjs picked up on it and started a thread. I was then more or less beholden to qualify my warning. This new development in the ME is very alarming and we all know what happens to watchmen who don't sound the alarm! I'm most frightened of not obeying my calling. I know how divisive Natan's testimony is but I believe, whole-heartedly, that Natan was taken to heaven to receive prophecy for Israel. I am sorry that you perceived this as being confrontational. My belief has got a few hackles up but I'd rather that than not sound the alarm. I don't think it's worth continuing to gnaw at it. People will either watch it or not. They will believe it - or not. My father was Jewish. My mother, a British Christian. I was brought up learning both sides of the coin. My parents decided not to fight over it and allow us children to make our own decisions when we became old enough. I was one blessed little girl. I understand the very deep attachment the Jewish people have to GOD - Jerusalem - the Temple. It is all way deeper than on a non Jew could ever begin to understand. I'm not being condescending - but to even catch a glimpse of the intensity of what being a Jew is like, is difficult to explain. I think Natan used the wrong word when he used "repentance" about Messiah Jesus. Like the Christians, the Jewish people also believe that there is not one of us without sin. We all need to repent. For Natan to wrap his head around the fact that there is an undead person - alive and breathing and without sin - is incomprehensible to a Jewish mind-set. Repentance is something a religious Jew does every single day. Repentance is as vital as breathing. repentance or teshuva is a Jewish word translated as "returning". What you perceived as Natan being "uncomfortable" about having his story changed, I see differently. Natan was very aware that he had a gigantic message to deliver. He was not yeshiva (a scholar of the Torah) and he was understandably nervous. When he corrected the Rabbi - which he did a few times - he didn't hesitate to do so. He would tell the Rabbi "No - that's not right". Natan's confidence grew as the video clip progressed. So we differ stormyknight but we are still together in Christ.
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Post by boraddict on May 23, 2019 1:12:39 GMT -6
raindrop,, I thought you were a guy so I was not going to cut you any slack. However, now that I know you are a kindred spirit then all is well. These guys are tough and you are doing a great job. Hang in there!
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