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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 21, 2019 17:35:37 GMT -6
Daniel's 70 weeks - Introduction and back story
and what I can agree to...
Let us remind ourselves of the what brought us to the 70 week prophecy in the first place.
Babylon was a small but rising city. Assyria owned the world. In 721 bc, Assyria's siege of Israel and Samaria was complete and the northern kingdom of Israel was deported to Assyria. It was the 14th Jubilee from when the Hebrews had crossed the Jordan and exactly 210 years (21 x 10) from when Israel and Judah had split.
With Israel out of the way, Assyria set their sites on Jerusalem - the capital of the southern kingdom of Judah.
Marching south and besieging the great city a few years later. The situation was grave - but the Lord had other plans for Judah and Assyria was not able to prevail. In 713 bc, the siege was broken and Assyria went limping home having lost more than 185,000 men. In 607 bc, with the nation of Assyria severely weakened, Babylon moved in for the kill. Coming up from the south, it wasn't long before Assyria was gobbled up by the mighty Babylon.
And then, as conquering kings are apt to do, Nebuchadnezzar set his eyes upon Jerusalem - the prize of Judah.
The men of Judah though, remembered the stories of their fathers and how they had been rescued from Assyria, and so they believed they could also withstand Babylon. Jeremiah was sent do advise them that Babylon was a judgement coming from God. But the men of Jerusalem did not want to submit to the Lord's judgement and so they found "better" prophets who would confirm the idols of their heart. And, as we have learned, God gave the prophets words according to the idols of their hearts.
Jeremiah said that if they submitted to the judgment that God would put them in a wooden yoke. But if they resisted, they would be placed in an iron yoke. So naturally, they threw Jeremiah in jail and prepared to fight the oncoming armies of Babylon. But three years later, in 604 bc, Babylon conquered Jerusalem. They deported some of the best and brightest (including Daniel) to Babylon, but they let Jerusalem and the temple stand. That is until the kings of Jerusalem rebelled and attempted to throw off the rule of Babylon - still not submitting to the judgement of God. This brought back the forces of Babylon in to a 19 year destruction of the surrounding towns and the final siege and destruction of the city and temple - finally ending in 585 bc. At this point, most of the population of Judah was deported to Babylon - including Ezekiel.
So we date the captivity of Judah from 604 bc to 534 bc. It is interesting to note that Babylon lasted 70 years as world power from 607 bc to 537 bc. The captivity of Judah lasted 70 years, from 604 bc to 534 bc. And the temple was in a state of desolation for 70 years, from 585 bc to 515 bc. There is a 19 year difference from the point of captivity to the fall of the temple. There is a 19 year difference from the return to the removal of desolation of the temple.
10“For thus says the LORD, ‘When seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place.
And so, 70 years after Daniel was deported, he looked at the books and realized that the time of judgement had passed and it was time for the Lord to visit.
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
And so, Daniel began to pray, according to the word of the Lord that the time had come. He had experienced a great many things during his stay in Babylon. He had interpreted dreams of the beast kingdoms that were to rule the world. He had been thrown into the den of lions, he had many visions of the time of the end and of the exchange of authority from one kingdom to the next. Now he prayed a prayer of repentance; a prayer of comprehension as to the purpose of the judgement; a prayer asking God to perform according to His promise. But not for the sake of the people, but for the sake of the glory of God.
Dan 9:19“O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”
And on that day, around the time of the evening sacrifice, Gabriel visited Daniel to explain things.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 21, 2019 18:22:02 GMT -6
Daniel's 70 Weeks - continued and what I can agree with this:
There are four facets to consider when studying this passage in Daniel 9; 1) the actual history of the events, 2) the prophetic meaning, 3) the literal meaning, 4) the legal meaning.
Historically:
Even back in 1880, we had a pretty decent list of kings that reigned in the ancient middle east. But, that list changed when amazing discoveries were made in the 1930's. Unfortunately, the dispensationalists didn't like the new information because it actually disproved their timing of the 70 weeks and so they ignored the new information and to this day, most people still teach the old sequence of kings.
When Babylon fell, the night that Daniel told Belshazzar what the writing on the wall meant, it was taken by a union of two nations, Media and Persia. Initially, Darius the Meade ruled Babylon while Cyrus went on to other areas of conquering. It was during these few years that Daniel was thrown into the lion's den. But eventually Cyrus came back and took over the rule of Babylon. Media / Persia was holder of the mandate at this point. These are the kings that rule in Media / Persia until Media / Persia finally fell in 331 BC.
Here is what we know about who reigned when:
Cyrus (Arsames) 536-527
Cambyses (Hystaspes) 529-522
Darius I 521-486
Xerxes I 485-465
Artaxerxes I 464-424
Darius II 423/4-405
Artaxerxes II 404-359
Ochus (Artaxerxes III) 358-338
Arses 337-336
Darius 335-331
The reason this is important is because the date of 331 BC for the fall of Media / Persia to Alexander the Great of Greece is a very well document date. There is little dispute over this. But what wasn't known - conclusively - was the existence of these three kings:
Darius II 423-405
Artaxerxes II 404-359
Ochus (Artaxerxes III) 358-338
So when people calculated backwards from 331, they would miss these three kings and believe that Babylon must have fallen about 80 years later than it really did. This, would, of course, throw off their calculation as to when the 70 weeks took place. Gymnastics were performed in order to make things line up. Since different people had different dates they believe Jesus died, they would have to use tricks of mathematics to make thing line up accordingly.
As crazy as this sounds, the day of the week that Jesus died, plays a big part in when Daniel's 70 weeks ended. You see, because of the nature of the Jewish calendar, if Jesus died on a Wednesday, only certain years could account for his death. If He died on a Friday, then other years became possible. So depending on which day you "want" Jesus to die on, and depending on whether you "want" a gap in your 70 weeks, you will count things one way or another.
We have three advantages that others didn't have from the days of Darby et al:
1. We live after the 1930's, when the three kings were proven, through archeology, to have reigned and their years much better document.
2. We don't really care about a gap - if it is there great. If not, great. We don't base our theology on these things. This makes us more disciplined to the truth.
3. We CAN know exactly when Jesus died!
Three Starting Decrees
There are three different dates where decrees were given:
534 bc: Cyrus - Ezra 2
458 bc: Artaxerxes - Ezra 7
445 bc: Artaxerxes - Neh 2
Most Christians believe the last date is the appropriate date because of the very popular and almost sacred calculations by Sir Robert Anderson
where he has the decree of 445 BC and then Jesus dying April 6 32 AD
This is based on a 360 day prophetic year and claims that it comes out to the day that Jesus entered Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. Sir Robert then divided these days by 360 to come up to 483 prophetic years. Since there is a 7 year period that does not fit into this model, a gap was created to account for it.
So what's wrong with this?
Well, a couple things. For one, If Jesus died in 32 AD, then He died on a Monday or Sunday. This does not match the gospels at all and should be just thrown out - but the numbers are so cool, we just don't have the heart to do that - so instead, miss out on the passages that talk about the baptism & death of Jesus in Daniel.
Another critical issue to putting in a gap is that it destroys the prophecy (directed about Jesus) of the 70 weeks and makes meaningless the events and the messages of Jesus.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven[490].
Let's take a look again at the decrees using 33 AD-
534 bc + 33 ad = 566 years
458 bc + 33 ad = 490 years
445 bc + 33 ad = 477 years
All the struggle and forcing a gap and yet, there is a clear date that perfectly fits. 33 AD is a very commonly accepted date of death for Jesus. It also puts him dying when He was 33 years old and on a Friday.
Also, we see this from the second edict:
Ezra 9:9 God has not forsaken us, but has extended loving kindness to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to raise up the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem.
Also, 458 bc + 49 years = 409 bc; Why is that important? Because Gabriel didn't just divide his dates into two sections - 483 + 7. He divided it into three sections - 49 + 434 + 7;
According to several sources, the historian Prideaux declared Nehemiah’s last action in rebuilding the city occurred in the 15th year of the Persian ruler Darius II (423/4-405 B.C.). His 15th year would have been in 409 bc. Which just happens to be the 49th year from the 458 B.C. decree. When Josephus wrote about Nehemiah's death, he also seems to support this idea.
So we have a natural break down. After 7 weeks the rebuilding was completed. After 7 + 62 weeks the 70th week started. It started in 26 ad and ended in 33 ad. In the very exact middle of that week, Jesus was baptized on the Day of Atonement.
To summarize - from a historical perspective. There is no reason to invent a gap and there is only one edict that actually fits the years. No other timeframe (whether 483 or 490) fits the years. Also, the third division of time is also explainable.
But, we will not be satisfied with a simple historical perspective.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 21, 2019 18:27:20 GMT -6
Daniel's 70 Weeks - Quick History summary
Just to summarize the historic numbers:
Three possible starting dates:
534 bc: Cyrus - Ezra 2
458 bc: Artaxerxes - Ezra 7
445 bc: Artaxerxes - Neh 2
Plotting each of these against the possible years of Jesus' death (assuming we didn't know), and using a 10 year span to pinpoint the "week"
534 bc: Cyrus - Ezra 2
458 bc: Artaxerxes - Ezra 7
445 bc: Artaxerxes - Neh 2
534 to 26 ad = 559
534 to 36 ad = 569
So this date is completely out of range of 490 years.
445 to 26 ad = 470
445 to 36 ad = 480
Not completely out of sync, but also not close enough.
458 to 26 ad = 483
458 to 36 ad = 493
This matches perfectly if the beginning of the 70th week was 26 ad. This then places the 70th week between the years of 26 ad and 33 ad.
In 409 bc the rebuilding was complete. That was 7 "weeks" after this date. But also, we see that Ezra left Babylon in the first month, and arrived in the 5th month:
Ezr 7:8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.
Ezr 7:9 For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.
Ezr 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Ezr 7:11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.
Ezr 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 21, 2019 18:49:55 GMT -6
This is what the 70 weeks means to me, from my seeking:
It is all well and good to speculate on dates. To be completely fair, historians have disagreed about a great many dates over the centuries. While some stand out as more sure than others, even 1 year off here and there could cause the "perfect" calculation of timing to be off.
So while one could argue that the count of years between 458 bc and 33 ad is wrong, they would be no more certain. At this point, with the information we know about history, they cannot disprove these dates. And these dates add up to 490 years. 70 weeks. More importantly, they add up to 70 sabbath weeks.
Why was Judah placed under the yoke in the first place? For not honoring the sabbath and the jubilee. Have we ever asked ourselves, why wasn’t it 62 weeks. Why wasn't it 523 years? I mean pick any time you want. Why was it 70 x 7 = 490 years? You see the time means something. It is not a random number of years. It is a precise timing to the second of when things were meant to happen. But the timing itself - though precise - was dictated by the meaning of the numbers themselves.
So when people break up the numbers and add gaps and split in half weeks, this misses the entire message of this prophecy and when they insist on making today's Israel the focus of the prophecy they neglect to understand the magnitude and beauty of the actual message of Gabriel and of the Work of Christ.
So, what is the underlying meaning?
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24If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”
25Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, “God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel, for Cain killed him.”
21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy
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The Jubilee is a period of 49 years. It is 7 sabbath years. At the beginning of the 50th year, 10 days into the year, the Jubilee was celebrated on The Day of Atonement. Each year, the DOA was celebrated, but in the beginning of that 50th year - Grace was given and all debt reversed and all ownership of lost possession restored. This same year then counted as the first year in the next Jubilee pattern and so we count in periods of 49 years. 490 years is 10 Jubilees. 483 years + a gap + 7 years, is not.
Each year, on the DOA, two goats would be selected. One would be sacrificed and the other sent into the wilderness - led by a man who was in waiting. The sins of the nation were placed upon the goat sent away. The nation was "forgiven" for another year. This was part of a process that involved the sabbath years and the jubilee. Every 7 years was a sabbath year. Every 49 years was a jubilee.
Over the years, Judah had been ignoring - not honoring - these special years and days. It brought judgement upon them in the form of Babylon. God even gave them one last chance to see the value of the Jubilee before their final demise:
8The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD after King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were in Jerusalem to proclaim release to them:
9that each man should set free his male servant and each man his female servant, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman; so that no one should keep them, a Jew his brother, in bondage.
10And all the officials and all the people obeyed who had entered into the covenant that each man should set free his male servant and each man his female servant, so that no one should keep them any longer in bondage; they obeyed, and set them free.
11But afterward they turned around and took back the male servants and the female servants whom they had set free, and brought them into subjection for male servants and for female servants.
12Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
13“Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘I made a covenant with your forefathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, saying,
14“At the end of seven years each of you shall set free his Hebrew brother who has been sold to you and has served you six years, you shall send him out free from you; but your forefathers did not obey Me or incline their ear to Me.
15“Although recently you had turned and done what is right in My sight, each man proclaiming release to his neighbor, and you had made a covenant before Me in the house which is called by My name.
16“Yet you turned and profaned My name, and each man took back his male servant and each man his female servant whom you had set free according to their desire, and you brought them into subjection to be your male servants and female servants.”’
17“Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘You have not obeyed Me in proclaiming release each man to his brother and each man to his neighbor. Behold, I am proclaiming a release to you,’ declares the LORD, ‘to the sword, to the pestilence and to the famine; and I will make you a terror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
18‘I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not fulfilled the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between its parts—
19the officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf—
20I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth
From what I am learning now, the people did not understand the value of the sabbath and the jubilee. So they were to be enslaved for 10 sabbath years. We know that because they resisted this judgement that God actually extended their punishment to 7 periods of 360 = 2520 years. At some point, after the 10 sabbath years (70 years), we enter Daniel 9.
Daniel is asking the Lord to forgive and to restore them. Eventually Gabriel comes to deliver a message. A message of hope and, at the same time, a message of failure. So let us walk though Gabriel's response...
Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
We can break this down as follows:
Judah / Jerusalem are granted (70 sabbath years) 490 years to accomplish the mission. What is the mission? To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. But they would fail this mission and so the Messiah would succeed where they failed - in being cut off for the sins of the world.
Here are the details of how this will come down:
1. There will be a decree which will start this 490 years.
1a. 49 years into this (1 jubilee) the streets and wall will be built.
1b. 483 years into this (1 week short of 10 jubilees) Messiah will be.
1c. After the 483 years, Messiah will be cut off - but not because of His sin.
1c1. Messiah will confirm the covenant
1c2. Messiah will put a stop to sacrifices in the middle of the week
1d. A leader of people(Romans) will come and destroy Jerusalem and the Temple (this happened in 66-73 ad) - it will be a complete desolation.
1d1. The temple itself will be destroyed and abominations will be setup
1d2. This will happen until the end of the consummation of the gentiles[end of pentecost age] and the desolate one[man of sin] will be revealed
I am seeing this, too: Gabriel jumps back and forth a bit as he tells the future. The desolation is of the Lord, by the hand of the Romans. So yes, it is God who makes it desolate. With the army of Titus of the Romans.
But first, Messiah confirms a covenant. The covenant that He made with all people many years earlier. This is not a new covenant. It is a covenant of the great promise of God to make a great nation of Abraham's seed and to provide as many descendants as the stars in the sky. Not some flimsy 7 year treaty between two beast kingdoms.
13“Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘I made a covenant with your forefathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, saying,
14“At the end of seven years each of you shall set free his Hebrew brother who has been sold to you and has served you six years, you shall send him out free from you; but your forefathers did not obey Me or incline their ear to Me.
This is what took place just before Judah went into captivity. Now, just before they are to be released, Gabriel is reminding Daniel about what the covenant and what Messiah will do.
So, in 26 ad, Jesus was 27 years old. And 483 years had taken place. True, the bible does not tell us about these 3.5 years. But it does pick up the story in the middle of the week. Because this is the point of the prophecy. It picks up the story, at the baptism of Jesus.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 21, 2019 19:04:06 GMT -6
Daniel's 70 Weeks - It is all about Atonement and this is why for now I can not be convinced otherwise that there is still a 70th week yet to come:
Since the creation of Earth, God has placed, in the hands of man, the responsibility to bring in the Kingdom.
There were three mandates that were given: Bring in the Sonship, Bring in the Kingdom, and Bring in the Priesthood. One by one, these man made assignments failed. We must remember that these institutions already exist in Heaven. The goal was to bring them to Earth. This combined mandate was passed down through the sons of Adam until it fell on Isaac and then Jacob. Over time, the mandates split and different groups were responsible for different mandates. Judah was to bring in the kingdom, Israel to bring in the Sons of God. And the priesthood had almost completely disappeared. A hidden group was to bring in this priesthood.
And so we end up at the point in 604 bc when Judah is conquered by Babylon. Judah's sister kingdom had already been taken by Assyria a century earlier. The mandates were given over to the beast kingdoms. The entire message of the book of Daniel is about this transfer of authority and about how it will be resolved in the end. It is not about a latter day Anti-Christ. But rather it is about the spirit of Anti-Christ that has been on Earth since the beginning, and I say amen to this. The spirit is this:
Isa 47:7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.
Isa 47:8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:
Zep 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.
Notice the I AM - notice there NONE ELSE BESIDE ME.
This is reserved for one being - The Lord God Almighty - Our God, Our Lord, Our Savior - Our King.
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Over 160 times we see this phrase: I AM Yahweh.
There can be only One - yet many have set themselves up and each, in time, has been made desolate by the One True King. The desolation is necessary in order to bring us to the point of seeing that we can only achieve salvation in Him. Not through our work. Not through our choice. Not through our belief. He is our salvation and there is no Rock like our God!
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And so we find, in Daniel, the details of how the beast kingdom would rule the Earth for centuries and how they would transition from one kingdom to the other as, in time, each failed to fulfill the mandates. This was an essential exercise to demonstrate to all witnesses that none were good. None could come close to touching the robe of God. Daniel is shown visions (of others and of himself) that diagrammed this process. He was given many details of the transitions between Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Rome, Papal Christianity, and a hint of Mystery Babylon. So in Daniel 9, Daniel tells us that he was studying the books of Jeremiah, which had been written about 70-80 years earlier and he understood that it was time for Judah to head home. But notice what he says - I won't put the entire prayer here, but you will want to become very familiar with this prayer in Daniel 9 - it is our prayer for today. We must be fervent in the spirit of this prayer. Here are some morsels:
Dan 9:2 ...that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
Dan 9:4 ...made my confession, ... God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him ....
Dan 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, ...
Dan 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them ...
Dan 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, ...
Dan 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Dan 9:17 .. cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
Dan 9:18 ... and behold our desolations, ... for thy great mercies.
And this:
Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Daniel is praying, not just for Judah, but for Israel as well. Whether they be near or far, scattered as they were. He is appealing to the mercy of God. He is appealing to the Glory of His Name. He is claiming God as a covenant keeper and confirmer. He is acknowledging God as a doer of His Word. He recognizes the desolation of his city, Jerusalem. But - he also recognizes the desolation of the heavenly Israel and Judah. It is not just about the physical city. It is about the result of disobedience, sin, and ignoring the Word.
I believe when we do not walk in the ways of the Lord, when we ignore His instruction - we say, I AM, and there is None Beside me. And we are made desolate. (sidenote, but it applies here)
When Gabriel shows up, it is in this context that he makes his speech. It is not in the context of some anti-christ coming. It is in relation to what Jeremiah wrote, the captivity of Judah, and the prayer of Daniel that God rescue them. So Gabriel tells Daniel that his people will be released and that they have been given a chance.
A chance to redeem the mandate a chance to change what they have done. A chance to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Indeed, Gabriel even tells them how much time they have to accomplish this: 490 years - split into three sections of 7 years. 49 years, 434 years, and 7 years. But Gabriel also tells Daniel that they will fail and that Messiah will come and finish the job. But that the result of failure will be the desolation, again, of all that they had rebuilt. Remember - Daniel knows the vision. Daniel has seen the future. Daniel knows about the great iron beast that will come and once again tear down Jerusalem. Gabriel is telling him when it will happen.
And so, 490 years later, a 40 year clock was started. The 70th week started in 26 ad, 40 years before the Roman war on Jerusalem started. The 70th week ended in 33 ad, 40 years before the final destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Most of this destruction took place in 70 ad. 40 years after the middle of the 70th week - when Jesus was baptized.
For 490 years Judah was forgiven, each year, on the Day of Atonement. Each time the goat was sacrificed, and the other goat was led into the wilderness, God was atoning for the sins of the nation. And He was creating a picture of the beautiful Fall day in September of 29 ad, when Jesus would walk down the banks of the Jordan toward His cousin. And seeing Jesus, John would say,
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Judah had failed. Jesus was beginning His three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth - and it started with His baptism. In the exact middle of the 70th week.
Mat 3:13Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?”
15But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.
16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Mat 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry.
3And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
At the moment Jesus went under water, He set into motion a path of desolation. He foreshadowed His death. But in the moment Jesus cleared the water, He set into motion a path of atonement. He foreshadowed His resurrection. He fulfilled both goats of atonement.
It was His baptism - on the Day of Atonement where He became the sacrificial Atonement for all. Where He put an end to the sacrifice recognized in the temple. He would then minister and preach this message for the next 3.5 years until He made it true on the Cross.
At the end of these 3. 5 years, just before Passover, Jesus, knowing the time of desolation was near, stood above the city and proclaimed this:
Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
How many times should a man forgive? 490 times. Once for each Day of Atonement that was allotted to Judah. And 490 times/years, they were forgiven. But the time was now up and they did not recognize it. Jesus wept, for He knew what was coming. Both for Himself and for the people. The time had been kept. The Word had been confirmed. It was time now, to confirm the covenant - it was time to make atonement for sin, it was time to finish the transgression[it is finished!], it is time to make an end of sins, it is time to bring in everlasting righteousness. It is time - to anoint the most Holy.
And He Is the Most Holy! And only He could accomplish the mission. In that act on the cross Jesus re-united the mandates in one person. One Priest! One Son! One King. But His work also paved the way for the creation of Kings and Priests to come. It made a path for the Sons of God. Praises to the Most High! How wonderful are His ways and excellent Is His mind. How gracious are His Forgiveness and Mercies. How True that there is Only One and there is NONE BESIDE HIM! Amen!
Some might ask - but we still sin, do we not? Therefore, He did not put an end to sin. Legally, He did my friends. Legally, Sin and Death have no authority over us. For He IS KING! He is in the business of calling what is not as though it was. He confirmed His covenant with the many - with all. And He will bring it to pass. But legally, He accomplished this work already on the Cross.
I have come to believe that to connect this confirmation of a covenant with an anti-christ and a peace treaty is not only poor textual analysis, it is completely missing the point of Daniel, Daniel 9, Baptism, The Day of Atonement, the death and resurrection of Christ, it diminishes the great work that was accomplished in 33 ad that changed all history past, present, and future.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 21, 2019 19:09:10 GMT -6
the word "cut off" from Bible Hub
b. of persons, the people of the land by a famine (בְּ) Genesis 41:36 (E); all flesh by waters of deluge (מִמֵּי) Genesis 9:11 (P); the anointed Daniel 9:26;
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Post by venge on May 21, 2019 19:33:28 GMT -6
More?
Ok so the 70th week is done.
Ok, what's on Netflix …..I'm bored.
Wait, what about the 3.5 years in Revelation? If the 70th week is done, why is that part left.....
(eery spooky music: Da da, Da da, Da da -- dadadadadada Da Da DA!)
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Post by cwood85 on May 21, 2019 21:09:13 GMT -6
More? Ok so the 70th week is done. Ok, what's on Netflix …..I'm bored. Wait, what about the 3.5 years in Revelation? If the 70th week is done, why is that part left..... (eery spooky music: Da da, Da da, Da da -- dadadadadada Da Da DA!)
Has that ever been studied or pondered on? By anyone? Whhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy does the 70th have to seem unfulfilled to make Revelations 42 months make sense?
WHAT IF
these time periods have nothing to do with one another..... 🤭🤫🤔😲😮😵😪😦😶😐🤕🥵😳😱😕😏🤨
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 19:40:23 GMT -6
I find this very interesting... I was asked to review verse 27 -- specifically about the "type" of covenant... Traditionally, this has always been about "MAKING" "or "CONFIRMING" -- but when you look at the verb used -- one can obtain a different view ... so check it... The word I am seeing is wə·hiḡ·bîr with two translation saying it means "will make" and one translation saying "shall confirm" with the primary meaning being "gabar: to be strong, mighty" Interesting check out some of the sub-meanings - become (1), conducts himself arrogantly (1), exert (1), great (2), magnified (1), make a firm (1), prevail (5), prevailed (9), strengthen (2), stronger (1), surpassed (1).
(conjugation I. dialect; usually in derived conjugation) compel, force; overbearing behaviour,A primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently -- exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more (strength), strengthen, be stronger, be valiant. BASED on some of these sub-meanings - it is possible that that the verb describes the "HE" and this person is conducting himself arrogantly or acting insolently Taking that approach then the "covenant" is not being modified (as being strengthen or confirmed) but rather the "HE" is compelling the acceptance of the covenant forcefully!Granted these are secondary meanings of the word in use... but do you see that the way the verb is used -- could apply to the one making the covenant and imply how he establishes it... with FORCE?
Check this link out.....Saudi is engaging in v'higbir from not only the point of pressuring the Palestinians, but also by "causing to strengthen covenant" www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Arab-states-pressuring-Palestinians-to-attend-Bahrain-workshop-590404 |
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Post by venge on May 22, 2019 20:19:40 GMT -6
More? Ok so the 70th week is done. Ok, what's on Netflix …..I'm bored. Wait, what about the 3.5 years in Revelation? If the 70th week is done, why is that part left..... (eery spooky music: Da da, Da da, Da da -- dadadadadada Da Da DA!)
Has that ever been studied or pondered on? By anyone? Whhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy does the 70th have to seem unfulfilled to make Revelations 42 months make sense?
WHAT IF
these time periods have nothing to do with one another..... 🤭🤫🤔😲😮😵😪😦😶😐🤕🥵😳😱😕😏🤨
View Attachment
Um, because it’s s time, time and half which mimics Daniel That spoke of the 70th week? That’s why? |
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Post by chohouston on May 23, 2019 9:04:58 GMT -6
What if the 3.5 years have nothing to do with the 70th week timeframe?!?
Has that ever been studied or pondered on? By anyone? Whhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy does the 70th have to seem unfulfilled to make Revelations 42 months make sense?
WHAT IF
these time periods have nothing to do with one another..... 🤭🤫🤔😲😮😵😪😦😶😐🤕🥵😳😱😕😏🤨
Um, because it’s s time, time and half which mimics Daniel That spoke of the 70th week? That’s why? In Daniel 9, it was the fact that Judah did not want to accept God's judgement because their fathers fought off Assyria and now they thought they can overcome Babylon. Daniel's prayer introduces chapter 9 and this is when Gabriel comes to explain everything. I don't think equating times, time and half a time to Daniel 9 is appropriate as they are two different matters that Daniel is talking about. WE are the ones that are attaching Daniel 7, 12 and Rev 12 to Daniel 9. The last week started in 26 AD and ended in 33 AD. In the middle of that week, Jesus came to atone sins for all and it was on the DAY of ATONEMENT, right in the MIDDLE of the WEEK... that John the Baptist baptized Jesus and legally, sin was atoned for everyone. He put an end to sacrifice. Remember, each year, two goats were sent off on the Day of atonement, one was sacrificed and one was carried out to the wilderness to carry the sins of the people away. They did this every year for 490 years, they were forgiven 490 times. 21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Daniel 7 is a vision that talks about a good chunk of humanity, the bigger picture. And then goes on to talk about the Stone Kingdom that prevails with the Saints of the most High God at the end. This is where times, time and half a time is mentioned. We can attach Daniel 7, Daniel 12 and Rev 12 together as it is talking about the same thing and NOT Daniel 9. Daniel 7: Past, current, future (times, time and half a time) Daniel 12: Future (times, time and half a time) Rev 12: Current, future (times, time and half a time) Daniel 9: Past |
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Post by williaml on May 23, 2019 9:36:40 GMT -6
1. Something of interest to me is that the Jewish mystics equate Edom with Rome.....I believe this has roots in the installation of Herod, and Edomite, as king over Israel. The Jews never really accepted Herod as an Idumean convert to Judaism....he was an Edomite from Esau's line, not Jacob. These days we are seeing another peculiar alignment of Edom with the West, ie Saudi + USA vs Iran/Russia/Turkey axis 2. Nelson Walters, a good friend of mine and pre-wrath adherent, believes that the "he" refers back to Messiah.....and that the armies were "His" as an instrument of destruction in His hand......I respect his viewpoints greatly, but this is one I differ with him on! 1. The Book of Jasher chapters 60-64 tells how Zepho, a (great-?) grandson of Esau, became king over the Chittim, the progenitors of the Roman nation. The Chittim later conquered the land of Edom for many decades, as told later in Jasher.
2. The people of the Messiah did not destroy the city and the sanctuary. The nagyd/"prince" (literally leader/commander) of the Romans, Vespasian, was the one who "caused" Jerusalem and its sanctuary to be destroyed.
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Post by williaml on May 23, 2019 9:38:43 GMT -6
So we have a natural break down. After 7 weeks the rebuilding was completed. After 7 + 62 weeks the 70th week started. It started in 26 ad and ended in 33 ad. In the very exact middle of that week, Jesus was baptized on the Day of Atonement.To summarize - from a historical perspective. There is no reason to invent a gap and there is only one edict that actually fits the years. No other timeframe (whether 483 or 490) fits the years. Also, the third division of time is also explainable. But, we will not be satisfied with a simple historical perspective. The people of Jesus did not destroy the city and the sanctuary. The Romans did. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 23, 2019 17:57:20 GMT -6
williaml, I did not post that the people of Messiah destroyed the temple. It says that the Romans did. If there is confusion it may be because it gives credit to God working thru the Romans to accomplish/fulfill the prophecy regarding the desolation of the city. My apologies if it is written in a confusing way.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 23, 2019 18:39:15 GMT -6
I know that was a long set of posts. I did not know how to do it any other way. So let's just talk about the main point: the continuous/gap-less example of 490 in other places of the Bible.
Those that see Jesus dying in 32 AD, fine. 30 AD, fine. But the magnitude of the significance of the Baptism of Jesus, and then His wandering in the wilderness to be tempted...completely mirrors the Atonement picture God had the people demonstrate for centuries upon centuries, and in fact, it mirrors the same proportion of time from the Killing of JEsus and the Destruction of the 2nd temple after a period of 40 years. Jesus wandered in the wilderness 40 days.... The Atonement being the FORGIVENESS. ...and how many times? 490. ...not 483 and wait a little while then another 7...
The Death/Buriel/Resurrection fulfilling the legal aspect was also demonstrated thru the people all those centuries. and, from what I have come to see so beautifully is that Jesus took it upon Himself to cover the three mandates Himself: Sonship, Kingship, & Preisthood He completed it, it is finished.
We must not forget the period of testing that God has for individuals, nations and the world. 40 days, 40 years, 40 jubilees. The more I dig into the Gospels the more I see that Jesus fulfilled not only passages from Isaiah, but fulfilled or demonstrated what numbers mean and spans of time mean in God's economy. That is why in my posts it asks: why was it 490? why not 480 or 500? Because it has to do with 10 and 49
In the Bible, the number 10 is used on many occasions to signify testimony, law and responsibility. The number 10 is seen as a complete and perfect number, 49 being the 7 x7, relating to the Jubilee, BECAUSE, what happens in the 50th year? ALL DEBT & ownerships are returned to God and He wipes it clean,,,like with a cloth.. (sorry, had to add a little humor) AND we know and understand the Jesus IS our "Jubilee" Our Rest, Releasing our debts, all that.
BECAUSE 10 is there, it makes me think that the 490 is or was and should be contiguous. Yes, it was broken up into 3 parts, but that seems to be the markers for those ears that could hear/eyes that could see. Those watching would KNOW the 70th week had begun. Don't you think that someone in Judah knew their math and began to realize: Messiah is right around the corner!! I am beginning to think that those who knew who Jesus was, KNEW they were in the Final Week of the prophecy because they understood the time of the visitation and knew the meaning of the visitation because they knew in their hearts what Daniel 9 was really about..
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