|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 15, 2019 18:56:07 GMT -6
boraddict, you had my attention until you said this: "Notice that Christianity is accepted in Israel today" um, from my point of view, and little is discussed about this, the die-hard jew despises Christ and the Christians. Even from Israeli articles from the past year and commentary, the orthodox jewish representative is NOT open to Christianity. Yes, maybe the ally aspect of the USA. so maybe you are referring to the Israeli/American alliance politically, but in the form of tolerance of the Faith of the Cross? no, do not see it. EVen according to some well-intentioned watchers, the educated jew will not even consider Isaiah 53! not only blindness but a hardened heart and a pride of their forefathers, legends, traditions, and purposes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 22:35:29 GMT -6
Hi Barbie, good questions! The 7 and 62 add to 69, at which point the Messiah is cut off. There are varying theories of the 7 and 62......but, whatever the viewpoint they still add to 69 from the issuing of the decree to the cutting off of Messiah the Prince. Then there is one more week....70th week.
The 70th week begins with "he will cause to strengthen covenant". The midpoint of the 70th week, after 1260 days, is marked by the AOD and stop to sacrifice, which is followed by the Great Tribulation. Then the end is after another 1290 days according to Daniel 12.
The endpoint that you ask about is described in Daniel 9:24.....70 weeks are decreed for you people, to wrap up everything.....the end of the 70th week fulfills everything we know from the Word
I suppose I would put Jesus returning on the clouds, per Daniel 7, Matthew 24, Luke 21 near the end of the 70th week, for those days were shortened for the sake of the elect. After Jesus returns, and sets His foot on the Mount of Olives, just like the disciples saw Him go....then all nations and people will know who He is. He comes in the clouds for His saints, the rapture. Then He returns to rule and reign with His saints per Revelation 19. So, I do not place His parousia at the middle...or the end. It is after the birth pangs described in Matthew 24, and before the 7th seal in Revelation 6-7
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on May 16, 2019 3:31:54 GMT -6
Hi Barbie, good questions! The 7 and 62 add to 69, at which point the Messiah is cut off. There are varying theories of the 7 and 62......but, whatever the viewpoint they still add to 69 from the issuing of the decree to the cutting off of Messiah the Prince. Then there is one more week....70th week. The 70th week begins with "he will cause to strengthen covenant". The midpoint of the 70th week, after 1260 days, is marked by the AOD and stop to sacrifice, which is followed by the Great Tribulation. Then the end is after another 1290 days according to Daniel 12. The endpoint that you ask about is described in Daniel 9:24.....70 weeks are decreed for you people, to wrap up everything.....the end of the 70th week fulfills everything we know from the Word I suppose I would put Jesus returning on the clouds, per Daniel 7, Matthew 24, Luke 21 near the end of the 70th week, for those days were shortened for the sake of the elect. After Jesus returns, and sets His foot on the Mount of Olives, just like the disciples saw Him go....then all nations and people will know who He is. He comes in the clouds for His saints, the rapture. Then He returns to rule and reign with His saints per Revelation 19. So, I do not place His parousia at the middle...or the end. It is after the birth pangs described in Matthew 24, and before the 7th seal in Revelation 6-7 Sam, You said: He comes in the clouds for His saints, the rapture. Then He returns to rule and reign with His saints per Revelation 19. Where does scripture say that when Christ comes for his saints he leaves? Then returns to rule. IMHO, when Christ returns to gather his elect into his barn in the air, we are welcoming him to his kingdom and we come with him. We don’t leave him. In a way, we are the welcoming party of a new king walking to his kingdom and in so much, Christ is about to purge it of all things that offend. Once he comes, he’s here. One 2nd advent. Not in the air and 7 years later a third advent. Can you explain? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 4:39:52 GMT -6
Venge, I maintain a pre-wrath view, in which the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds in Matthew 24:30 precedes the rapture in Matthew 24:31. He is not on a white horse, nor with His saints, as He is in Revelation 19 when He comes to earth to rule and reign with His saints. The sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds never states that He sets foot on earth, and parousia is an interesting word.....
If the sign of the Son of Man in the clouds mentioned a white horse, sword, and myriads of saints, I would be inclined to believe Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19 were one and the same, however the trumpet and bowl judgments of the 7th have yet to come as they were not described as Signs of His coming in Matthew 24
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 4:55:20 GMT -6
Venge, in Matthew 24, Jesus answers the question of “what is the sign of your coming”, or parousia, by describing the events of the first 6 seals. He does not describe any of the trumpet or bowl judgments as signs of parousia......if His return to earth is Matthew 24:30, why didn’t He describe the trumpets and bowls in addition to the six seals in your view?
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on May 16, 2019 9:25:12 GMT -6
Venge, in Matthew 24, Jesus answers the question of “what is the sign of your coming”, or parousia, by describing the events of the first 6 seals. He does not describe any of the trumpet or bowl judgments as signs of parousia......if His return to earth is Matthew 24:30, why didn’t He describe the trumpets and bowls in addition to the six seals in your view? He didn’t need to describe every part in chronological order. What is the sign of your coming or when your coming begins. That does not mean that the coming is the moment it actually happens. Just as he stated after the Tribulation you will see X, Y and Z..and then will he appear allows for time to lapse between. The statement is not immediate. The only immediate is after the Tribulation that we have the astral events. His coming is not immediate but the events leading to it are. As he says “at that time” implying sometime after the 6th seal but not necessarily directly after. But using Matthew 24, and reading Revelation, one can find the “when”. Just as Christ taught the harvest. Do you place the harvest at the 6th seal? Or is it separate? |
|
|
|
Post by venge on May 16, 2019 9:37:56 GMT -6
Venge, I maintain a pre-wrath view, in which the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds in Matthew 24:30 precedes the rapture in Matthew 24:31. He is not on a white horse, nor with His saints, as He is in Revelation 19 when He comes to earth to rule and reign with His saints. The sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds never states that He sets foot on earth, and parousia is an interesting word..... So does the sign of the son of man say we go to heaven with him at that moment? |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on May 16, 2019 10:27:03 GMT -6
I don't agree with kjs ' opinion about the 70th week. He knows this, and I said a few things for my position and reasoning, but that I also was not going to be one to sway people to how I was seeing it. I just was stating that I do not agree with the "70th week unfulfilled-yet" notion. so, here I will say this for my stated postion: desolations are determined unto the end.
And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. this next part (the controversial part) 27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; to me this is a lower case pronoun because Christ came and was a 'little lower than the angels' while in the flesh: 9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.(Hebrews)His death on the cross put an end for the need to do any more animal or grain offerings. then the verse continues: and on the wing of abominations [ will come one who makes desolate], even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." it reads to me this way: on the ends (or even the attempt of) abominations (animal/grain sacrifices/man's version of atonements), causing horror (because of the continued lack of accepting of Christ) even until complete destruction is the one (Christ, who will make desolate the one this whole 70th week thing is decreed to.) Translation again: The firm covenant is the everlasting covenant that Jesus would make upon his death, putting an end for the need of any other sacrifice. But, Daniel's people would continue to perform the physical sacrifices and grain offerings (which are now considered an abomination) and this (this defiance of the Lord) will continue to the end (of the Present Age) until complete destruction happens. (aka Wine Press Judgement). This is how I read Dan 9. Daniel was forseeing his people not accepting the new covenant, and from that time period forward after He was Cut OFF, there would and will be desolations continuing right up to the End. I believe this is why Daniel got so sick from his visions. He would see time and again that they would remain in not only physical bondage, dispersement etc, but spiritual bondage. I also believe that Jesus died in 33AD, not 32AD. We must consider the full moon phase and Passover, and I belive, but will have to confirm this, that Jesus could only have died in 33 AD or 30 AD because of where the full moon was falling in the era.. Why is this important? I will share what someone showed me that makes sense to me. I am not trying to sway anyone. Just where I am right now with how I am seeing things. Whether or not you agree with my understanding with the 70 weeks is not really an issue. The Issue I have is trying to UNDERSTAND how people are counting.
So let us see if we can get some common ground on the COUNTING of the weeks.....
So in Daniel 9 (not using any other text -- simply as laid out in Daniel 9)
24 Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city, to finish disobedience, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
Now -- ignoring everything that is suppose to happen within the 70 weeks --- Can we all Agree that Daniel was told that His People and His Holy City -- gets "70 weeks"?
Now assuming we all agree on that (I see no other way to read that -- if you understand that as a different time period -- or more weeks or fewer weeks -- please explain in detail) -- if not then we can proceed that there is 70 weeks set aside for the People of Israel AND Jerusalem.
Now, because we know that the word used for WEEKS is shabua and it simply means a period of seven -- that period of seven could mean days, and that period of seven could mean years. We know for a fact that there were multiple decrees given to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple -- but only one which included the Walls and Moat of the City. We also know that 49 years after that Decree -- was the temple and the City completed in the rebuilding stage.
Now verse 25 gives us a hint: 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One,[c] the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times.
The prophecy time was split up for us... is God Great on making it easy for us? We are told specifically seven weeks (that is 49 years) -- so did anything happen within a 49 year time period? Well, Look at that Jerusalem and the temple were completed within the 49 year period. Later Herod came along and expanded the Temple -- but the 2nd temple was completed in 49 years and Herod's expansion was really a 2.5 version of the temple.
Now verse 25 "prophecies" that the time period to the Anointed One, the prince shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks (everyone notice that 69 weeks are specifically spelled out (7 + 62)) So based on verse 25 alone -- the "prince" (or Anointed one) -- does not show up until week 69. Please note all WEEKS are spelled out for us.....
The Grand total of weeks is 70 -- 69 weeks will be used up until the Anointed One shows up --- DOES THIS PROPHECY Give any clue about the final week?
Verse 27 -- 27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: ........
The Final week is identified in verse 27 -- and "Someone" makes (strengthens) a covenant with MANY for One Week.....
we are only counting here (not trying to say what happens during the weeks) simply counting Anointed One shows up after 69 weeks
that leaves only the 70th week "LEFT" ......
There is Seven Years that need to be accounted for (the 70th week).......
Those that say it already happen needs to SHOW what covenant was made AND BROKEN mid-week (or mid-seven years).....
Since this is Daniel's people -- the Covenant has to include the People of Israel -- People of Israel has not exist since 70AD until 1948.....
Those who say it is a future even -- says the 70th week is still to come.......
Now only count weeks -- show the 70th (missing week).............
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 11:24:26 GMT -6
Venge, sorry for the delayed reply.....very busy at work! I may not be able to keep up very well....but will try when I have a moment!
It's not that He described things out of order, He didn't describe the trumpets and bowls at all in Matthew 24.....the pre-wrath view maintains that it's because believers are no longer present for trumpets and bowls as they are raptured before the 7th seal is opened, and therefore wouldn't be a sign for us for the sign of His coming any longer. What is your view as to why He doesnt mention trumpet or bowl judgments in Matthew 24, even though they are incredibly severe? I find it odd that He would not describe them if they occurred prior to the rapture......it is a real stretch for me on that observation alone to accept that the trumpets and bowls occur prior to the gathering of the elect described in Matt 24:31
Yes, I believe the rapture is described in Matt 24:31, when the angels gather the elect, so in that sense we will be with Him from that point on, as Paul describes in his letters. This event is described after the 6th seal when believers from every nation tribe and tongue appear in heaven, prior to the opening of the 7th seal....
But, we may need to agree to disagree here! As I have stated many times, I am not going to argue or debate on the forum.....I will share my views for those who are interested
Shalom brother Venge
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on May 16, 2019 11:53:22 GMT -6
Venge, sorry for the delayed reply.....very busy at work! I may not be able to keep up very well....but will try when I have a moment! It's not that He described things out of order, He didn't describe the trumpets and bowls at all in Matthew 24.....the pre-wrath view maintains that it's because believers are no longer present for trumpets and bowls as they are raptured before the 7th seal is opened, and therefore wouldn't be a sign for us for the sign of His coming any longer. What is your view as to why He doesnt mention trumpet or bowl judgments in Matthew 24, even though they are incredibly severe? I find it odd that He would not describe them if they occurred prior to the rapture......it is a real stretch for me on that observation alone to accept that the trumpets and bowls occur prior to the gathering of the elect described in Matt 24:31 Yes, I believe the rapture is described in Matt 24:31, when the angels gather the elect, so in that sense we will be with Him from that point on, as Paul describes in his letters. This event is described after the 6th seal when believers from every nation tribe and tongue appear in heaven, prior to the opening of the 7th seal.... But, we may need to agree to disagree here! As I have stated many times, I am not going to argue or debate on the forum.....I will share my views for those who are interested Shalom brother Venge If you take a literal view of the trumpets, it appears as wrath. If you don’t and you take a figurative view, it is completely different and you would see the first 3 trumpets agree with what he says in Matthew 24. That is why I asked you those 10 questions the other day. If we are raptured after the 6th seal but before the 1st Trumpet, the questions I asked— how do they fit in chapter 7? They simply cannot. They go unanswered. But they are answerable and to find that answer, you have to be able to look outside the pre wrath idea. That doesn’t mean give it up, it means study outside of it with a mind of—what IF I am missing something. That goes for all of us. Always studying, improving ourselves. Seeking knowledge. |
|
|
|
Post by sog on May 16, 2019 12:18:13 GMT -6
... Now verse 25 "prophecies" that the time period to the Anointed One, the prince shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks (everyone notice that 69 weeks are specifically spelled out (7 + 62)) So based on verse 25 alone -- the "prince" (or Anointed one) -- does not show up until week 69. Please note all WEEKS are spelled out for us.....
The Grand total of weeks is 70 -- 69 weeks will be used up until the Anointed One shows up --- DOES THIS PROPHECY Give any clue about the final week? ... , Just need some clarification on "69 weeks will be used up until the Anointed One shows up" John 2:19-20 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “ It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. So clearly Jesus was on the scene at year 46 of the 49 of the rebuilding. ~3 years left for His ministry. So do you mean until he "shows up" for His ministry or until His Crucifixion? Was He the Anointed One before His Crucifixion, or after? That's it, not looking for anything deeper, just clarification on that. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on May 16, 2019 14:07:02 GMT -6
... Now verse 25 "prophecies" that the time period to the Anointed One, the prince shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks (everyone notice that 69 weeks are specifically spelled out (7 + 62)) So based on verse 25 alone -- the "prince" (or Anointed one) -- does not show up until week 69. Please note all WEEKS are spelled out for us.....
The Grand total of weeks is 70 -- 69 weeks will be used up until the Anointed One shows up --- DOES THIS PROPHECY Give any clue about the final week? ... , Just need some clarification on "69 weeks will be used up until the Anointed One shows up" John 2:19-20 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “ It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. So clearly Jesus was on the scene at year 46 of the 49 of the rebuilding. ~3 years left for His ministry. So do you mean until he "shows up" for His ministry or until His Crucifixion? Was He the Anointed One before His Crucifixion, or after? That's it, not looking for anything deeper, just clarification on that. Thanks. No, Jesus was NOT alive during the "49 years" --- He was alive during Herod's expansion of the Temple (which had been going on for 46 years).....
From Wikipedia
The Second Temple was originally a rather modest structure constructed by a number of Jewish exile groups returning to the Levant from Babylon under the Achaemenid-appointed governor Zerubbabel. However, during the reign of Herod the Great, the Second Temple was completely refurbished, and the original structure was totally overhauled into the large and magnificent edifices and facades that are more recognizable.
Basically, started around 559 BCE and dedicated 515 BCE (this was version 1 of the second temple)
Herod the Great would substantially refurbish the Temple starting in 20/19 B.C.E. -- so 20AD would be 40 Years making 26AD to 27AD -- the start of Jesus Ministry which make the quote you mention apply to Herod's refurbish rather than Zerubbabel building effort. [books of Ezra and Nehemiah and 2 Chronicles -- cover this history of Zerubbabel which is version 1 of Temple 2]
Also - please note be careful trying to apply the "years" here -- since all we have are best estimates -- of when things happen. So when they first started returning to Jerusalem and rebuilding could be earlier (560's -- with the temple rebuilding starting later)
Just trying to show the "46" years you "found" are not part of the first part of the prophecy years.
If you take Sir Robert Anderson "The Coming Prince" theory -- the 69th week ended on Palm Sunday of the Week Jesus was crucified. But I did not cover that because as I said I was only doing Counting ... and the Counting says AFTER 69 weeks the Anointed One will be "cut off"...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 18:15:12 GMT -6
Venge....I don't accept all of your premises.....for instance, the non-sequential order of seals, trumpets, bowls....see my message and we can discuss further there!
Shalom brother Venge!
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on May 17, 2019 10:38:07 GMT -6
Venge....I don't accept all of your premises.....for instance, the non-sequential order of seals, trumpets, bowls....see my message and we can discuss further there! Shalom brother Venge! I never said that. You misunderstand what I have stated then. I see seals 1-7 in order. Following the 7th seal is the 1st trumpet to the 7th trumpet. Following the 7th trumpet is the bowls 1-7 Sequential order. I have no idea why you would say I follow some non-sequential order. I have never said that nor do I believe it. |
|
|
|
Post by sog on May 17, 2019 12:23:55 GMT -6
kjs , Just need some clarification on "69 weeks will be used up until the Anointed One shows up" John 2:19-20 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “ It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. So clearly Jesus was on the scene at year 46 of the 49 of the rebuilding. ~3 years left for His ministry. So do you mean until he "shows up" for His ministry or until His Crucifixion? Was He the Anointed One before His Crucifixion, or after? That's it, not looking for anything deeper, just clarification on that. Thanks. No, Jesus was NOT alive during the "49 years" --- He was alive during Herod's expansion of the Temple (which had been going on for 46 years).....
From Wikipedia
The Second Temple was originally a rather modest structure constructed by a number of Jewish exile groups returning to the Levant from Babylon under the Achaemenid-appointed governor Zerubbabel. However, during the reign of Herod the Great, the Second Temple was completely refurbished, and the original structure was totally overhauled into the large and magnificent edifices and facades that are more recognizable.
Basically, started around 559 BCE and dedicated 515 BCE (this was version 1 of the second temple)
Herod the Great would substantially refurbish the Temple starting in 20/19 B.C.E. -- so 20AD would be 40 Years making 26AD to 27AD -- the start of Jesus Ministry which make the quote you mention apply to Herod's refurbish rather than Zerubbabel building effort. [books of Ezra and Nehemiah and 2 Chronicles -- cover this history of Zerubbabel which is version 1 of Temple 2]
Also - please note be careful trying to apply the "years" here -- since all we have are best estimates -- of when things happen. So when they first started returning to Jerusalem and rebuilding could be earlier (560's -- with the temple rebuilding starting later)
Just trying to show the "46" years you "found" are not part of the first part of the prophecy years.
If you take Sir Robert Anderson "The Coming Prince" theory -- the 69th week ended on Palm Sunday of the Week Jesus was crucified. But I did not cover that because as I said I was only doing Counting ... and the Counting says AFTER 69 weeks the Anointed One will be "cut off"...
Yeah, I meant the refurb. I guess I should've said the re-rebuild. Check out this link from Daniel Matson with chart and video (audio is a little weird). Kinda what I was getting at. I didn't say it very well. Curious of your take on this. watchfortheday.org/4of7.html |
|
