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Post by Natalie on Apr 1, 2019 11:32:41 GMT -6
"But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil." Hebrews 5:14
“Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.” —C.H. Spurgeon
He also brings up the point that not every book, sermon, song, etc will answer all three questions. But, as my friend and I discussed the overall work produced by an author, musician, or pastor should produce an answer to the three questions.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 1, 2019 11:46:51 GMT -6
Of course the number one way to start in practicing discernment is to be immersed in the Bible and have a solid grasp of the true gospel. Look to the genuine and you will be able to spot the counterfeit. What has helped you?
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Post by rt on Apr 1, 2019 13:21:49 GMT -6
Of course the number one way to start in practicing discernment is to be immersed in the Bible and have a solid grasp of the true gospel. Look to the genuine and you will be able to spot the counterfeit. What has helped you? Increased discernment comes with increased knowledge, increased knowledge comes from increased study. This is the best way I know to practice discernment- know God's word! I would also add that walking in God's word and in His Spirit added to increasing in knowledge keeps our spiritual antenna tuned into what is right and helps us discern what is not.
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 1, 2019 13:37:33 GMT -6
When my wife and I first attended a service with the WWCoG, the one thing we both noticed was that everyone had bibles and notebooks and people were writing in their bibles!! Gasp! One of the things that Herbert W. Armstrong always said was 'don't believe me, look it up for yourself!' Well, in a way, for me, that eventually made us begin to distance ourselves when things started breaking up in that organization because there were certain 'doctrines' that that church professed that we didn't agree with because it went against what was plainly written in the scriptures. Keeping notes and fervently studying is what really helped me learn discernment. I wish I hadn't lapsed for so many years like I did, but that discernment helped me find this wonderful place!
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Post by fitz on Apr 1, 2019 16:44:07 GMT -6
The most important person you'll ever preach the gospel to is yourself. Do it daily.
Every answer to the Christian life is contained in fully understanding the gospel, what Jesus died to secure for us...the promises contained therein & our identity in Christ.
All of Paul's epistles address an aspect of Christian living...all of his answers are derived from an in-depth exposition of the gospel.
A deep understanding the gospel, knowing what Christ died to purchase for us, knowing who we are in Christ Jesus, will turn you into a discernment ninja.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 1, 2019 19:17:57 GMT -6
So, along the lines of discernment, what do we do with false teachers? Ideally, if your pastor has started to slide into error, I would assume you would address it with the elders who would look into the matter and approach him about it. If he repents, great. If not, then what? Hopefully, more talks with elders or a removal from position if necessary. But nowadays it’s probably more common that we are the ones that go searching for a new church home. (I know that it can be much more complicated than that and every situation is different.) Similarly, if you have a friend who has started to hold incorrect doctrine, you would go to them and lovingly show them from scripture where they are going wrong. But more than that, what do we do with well known pastors who are teaching wrong doctrine? For example, TD Jakes holds to the concept of modalism – that God exists in different forms at different times, sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son, sometimes the Spirit. Clearly not biblical. My previous pastor went to a leadership summit and sat through Jakes’ session. Maybe nothing unbiblical was said, but in essence, I felt that our pastor was giving Jakes some of our church’s money and supporting his ministry. (And possibly creating a stumbling block for those not strong yet in the faith.) Is there biblical support for me to say, “Pastor, TD Jakes is a false teacher. From what I have read, he’s been confronted about this and refuses to repent and embrace correct teaching. We need to stay away from him.”? (Disclaimer--I am talking very clear and repeated false teaching. I am not talking about fellow believers that hold a different interpretation of non-essentials. Many of us on here have varying interpretations of many things. Makes good discussion Iron sharpening iron.)
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Post by fitz on Apr 1, 2019 19:39:37 GMT -6
2 John 1:10
10 If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. 11 Anyone who encourages such people becomes a partner in their evil work.
TD Jakes - If he preaches "another gospel" (or an unbiblical understanding of the Trinity), then he teaches a false gospel. He is no better than a JW, Mormon, or other cultist. Why would we treat him any differently, just because he claims to be a Christian? TD Jakes is a multi-million $$ operation and if he teaches heresy (modalism), we shouldn't be supporting his "ministry".
IMHO, you'd be well within your rights to have this conversation with your pastor. Of course, I'd do it personally and privately.
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Post by venge on Apr 2, 2019 7:34:15 GMT -6
When my wife and I first attended a service with the WWCoG, the one thing we both noticed was that everyone had bibles and notebooks and people were writing in their bibles!! Gasp! One of the things that Herbert W. Armstrong always said was 'don't believe me, look it up for yourself!' Well, in a way, for me, that eventually made us begin to distance ourselves when things started breaking up in that organization because there were certain 'doctrines' that that church professed that we didn't agree with because it went against what was plainly written in the scriptures. Keeping notes and fervently studying is what really helped me learn discernment. I wish I hadn't lapsed for so many years like I did, but that discernment helped me find this wonderful place! 🥳 I never take notes. I try to listen. I read the text mentioned and what preceded it and what’s after it. I then look at the that little are in the middle of the pages many have. You know, it links to other scripture per verses. And I read those to get a better understanding. But as you and others said, always read it yourself. Study it yourself. Ask questions and do not be afraid to think differently from others. Shoot, I emailed my pastor about his sermon once and told him what I thought. Then I asked him questions with things he said which I had a different opinion on. He told me no one had ever done that before. He was happy to email me back a few times and discuss opinions. If I didn’t study, I can only speak for me when I say my faith would not be strong. How could it be built on a rock if I never built it to begin with? How could I grow strong like a cedar if I never fed myself his word with his living water
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Post by kjs on Apr 2, 2019 8:04:58 GMT -6
"But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil." Hebrews 5:14
“Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.” —C.H. Spurgeon
He also brings up the point that not every book, sermon, song, etc will answer all three questions. But, as my friend and I discussed the overall work produced by an author, musician, or pastor should produce an answer to the three questions.
Natalie -- Sorry, but I think we need to use discernment on your article of discernment .....
THIS PHRASE really bothers me ......... We are saved from a holy God, from his righteous wrath poured out eternally on every sinner who has disgraced his glory.
I know there are several "doctrines" out there that contain this belief -- but there are also just as many that do not contain this belief.
Even Gary (the administrator of this site) believes in Christian conditionalism and NOT the traditional doctrine of Eternal Torment for ever and ever.
Roughly Speaking you have (for unbelievers) .... 1) Eternal Torment (traditional Hell - which pretty much comes from the Roman Catholic Church -- to enforce their secular power over the people) 2) Annihilationism -- the belief that after the final judgment "they" cease to exist (be no more)
3) Christian conditionalism -- is a concept in which the gift of immortality is attached to (conditional upon) belief in Jesus Christ. kind of similar to Annihilationism in the sense that without "the belief in Jesus Christ" there is no eternal life and therefore there is no everlasting torment. 4) Ultimate Restoration -- Believes at some point ALL Humans will be restored to God.
I personally lean more toward Ultimate Restoration -- though I have not discovered a "time/place" that will all occur.....
My BIGGEST PROBLEM with the concept of Eternal Torment -- is there is NO WAY (in my mind) that I can wrap around the belief that a truly loving God (Creator of us Humans)..... would sentence his creation to eternal torment -- for only a few decades of life on this planet. That is the primary reason (that my concept of a Loving God would not do that).
The secondary reason (and it is a very close second to the primary reason)
John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
Umm, IF NO ONE Can come to the Son unless God the Father Draws him .... then you have the scenario where God is punishing someone because God did not draw him.....
AND THAT is some pretty flawed logic...........
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Natalie I did not wish to hijack your discernment thread but "their" answer to question two "What am I saved from?" -- was "too wrong" in my mind to just leave alone.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 2, 2019 8:29:36 GMT -6
Thank you, KJ for pointing that out. Different people would answer the "saved from" in different ways. Yes, I have been leaning more toward Christian conditionalism, also, for much of the same reason that you also have a problem with eternal torment. I also think that the Bible teaches that God draws all men, which is why they are responsible for their eternal destination; but I think that would be a topic for another thread. So, as we are using discernment here, what would be a good biblical answer? We are saved from the wrath of God? We are saved from an eternal life apart from Him? We are saved from the consequences of our sins (although that seems a bit vague)? All three of those things?
(Not a hijack at all, but a chance to practice)
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Post by fitz on Apr 2, 2019 8:59:45 GMT -6
From Gotquestions.org... "What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin." www.gotquestions.org/Christian-doctrine-salvation.html
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Post by cwood85 on Apr 2, 2019 9:19:07 GMT -6
*****Warning***** this is not directed at your friend personally, only the mindset and understanding being presented here.
Alright so tbh, this is the most unbiblical thing I have possibly ever read in regards to the gospel. There is some serious studying and prayer that needs to be done on this statement alone:
"We are saved from a holy God"
We have absolutely not been saved FROM God. This is a completely contradictory statement to the meaning of the name of Jesus/Yeshua, God IS salvation. If we are being saved from God, than we are saved from His salvation because HE IS SALVATION. What is good news about being saved from God? These are the sort of things that make people RUN away from seeking God and His character.
Now onto the second part of this sentence.
"from his righteous wrath poured out eternally on every sinner who has disgraced his glory."
^^^^^^This is actually a good thing. All of us at some point in our lives will experience Gods wrath and judgements. This is not something that is only experienced after death. The Jews being taken over and captured by the Babylonians was a form of Gods WRATH and JUDGEMENT. While it was happening it was certainly NOT pretty. It was terrifying, destructive, violent, and horrible. Many people died. But was was the outcome? Restoration, forgiveness, repentance, a new heart and love in understanding that what was done was done for the best. And what else? Correction. Through judgement and chastisement from the Lord, the jews saw that they had sinned and disobeyed and were very very sorry for what they had done and changed their ways and realized they were sinners (repented).
Every single one of us is a sinner and the wages of sin is death. God's wrath has nothing to do with our salvation. It does not send us to hell or turn us to some form of eternal dust. Gods wrath and judgement burns OUT our pride and rebelliousness right out. The process may not be pretty by any means, but it is always always intended for GOOD and we should not cower and hid from it. There is only one who is GOOD and all that He does is for the GOOD. We have been saved so we can be with God.
How am I saved? By God and His Salvation through Jesus. Our salvation was completed at the cross and death was beaten by the resurrection. What am I saved from? Sin and Death What am I saved for? To be with God and be cleansed of our sin and one day experience when He will be all in all.
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 2, 2019 9:36:56 GMT -6
.02¢
We are saved by grace through faith period We are saved from death, the wages of sin, missing the mark, falling short of perfection by Jesus Christ living a perfect life, dying with sins of the world on His shoulders, and rising back to life and ascending to the throne of Heaven defeating death. We are saved to become a member of the Elohim, the family of God. Which IMO is the 'big picture'.
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Post by kjs on Apr 2, 2019 9:42:45 GMT -6
Thank you, KJ for pointing that out. Different people would answer the "saved from" in different ways. Yes, I have been leaning more toward Christian conditionalism, also, for much of the same reason that you also have a problem with eternal torment. I also think that the Bible teaches that God draws all men, which is why they are responsible for their eternal destination; but I think that would be a topic for another thread. So, as we are using discernment here, what would be a good biblical answer? We are saved from the wrath of God? We are saved from an eternal life apart from Him? We are saved from the consequences of our sins (although that seems a bit vague)? All three of those things?
(Not a hijack at all, but a chance to practice)
How am I saved? By God and His Salvation through Jesus. Our salvation was completed at the cross and death was beaten by the resurrection. What am I saved from? Sin and Death What am I saved for? To be with God and be cleansed of our sin and one day experience when He will be all in all.
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Natalie -- For the record -- I do agree with the over all point of the thread -- there must be discernment -- just because someone label material "Christian" -- does not make it so!!!
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Post by Natalie on Apr 2, 2019 9:43:26 GMT -6
(ETA: I was typing my reply as you guys answered so I edited my post a bit)
thank you, CWood. I understand you aren't directing it at my friend. My friend shared it only because so many are embracing a gospel that is not the gospel at all. I had once been attending a church that was sliding from the true gospel to a what I term a self-help type gospel (along the lines of what the article terms therapeutic). I am glad that you guys are commenting on what the gospel truly is. Only by knowing that can we know what is not true. I think we all agree that we are saved by God by His grace through our faith in the atoning work of Christ done at the cross and through His resurrection. (Does that cover everything? ) And yes, I agree that we are saved from sin and death. Combining what fitz posted. We are saved from God's judgment of our sin (from His wrath) 1 Thes 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord..." from the consequences of our sin (death and a separation from God), and, I would add, from the power of sin.
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