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Post by socalexile on Feb 17, 2019 22:54:35 GMT -6
One of my favorite podcasts brings this up as a result of the controversies with the SBC, James MacDonald, and others:
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Post by mike on Feb 19, 2019 6:58:40 GMT -6
Father - I lift up those who may find themselves in this situation today. Please give them eyes to see that they may know the freedom and liberty in You. The courage to talk to someone and that You bring someone to them as an ear for them and shoulder to lean on. An open heart to receive truth as you speak through those you bring to them to receive. And mercy for the abusers. They are victims in this too. Not in the sense that they would use and twist others to do their bidding, but as victims to the enemy who has deceived them into this evil, vile doctrine. They are truly pawns of the enemy in need of deliverance. Have mercy Father
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 19, 2019 19:28:06 GMT -6
6And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
3“For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”
I was in conversation with several about the identity of MB and there was an agreement as to it being the financial domain, economics, wealth, prestige, power thru wealth that exists in our time. And make no mistake, it includes the churches. What were the apostles commanded to do? Make Followers of Christ. Jesus did not say, make rules and catacisms and mission statements and hundreds and thousands of disconnected Christian "religions." He did not say MAKE A RELIGION OUT OF ME. No, He Himself preached about the coming Kingdom, that it would be the one that would subdue all others, and those who would enter it were to by following Him. Those who turned from their lawlessness (fleshly 'god' of their internal heart) and turn to Him, and walk or BE OF THE SPIRIT, He would and did send, THAT was His desire.
I am convinced that the first thing He does when He returns is turn over some tables. I caution every one to consider how and why you tithe. Even a good-intentioned Christ church is NOT IMMUNE to deception. Christ's work on the cross did not eliminate the ability of deception to run amuck, even among the most well-intentioned...
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Post by boraddict on Feb 19, 2019 21:54:16 GMT -6
Thank you all for being a good example for me. I think what I really love about some people is what I call "blind faith," which I do not have. Blind faith is that faith that some have that requires no supporting evidence. I'm like, "show me the proof." That is so funny and I have to laugh. I have faith but it is not blind, but provable through my logic and reasoning ability that I believe to be correct. My faith is based upon reason and logic.
So hats off to those that have faith based upon faith alone. Wow, that is beyond where I am at, and I do admire those with blind faith. My aunt Darlene is like that. In the past I have explained reason and logic for certain things in scripture and she will say something like "none of that matters."
Her husband Jim died a few years ago and in one of my visionary experiences I saw him at a family gathering (in spirit). He is a loud man. Talks loudly; don't know why. Yet, he always listened to his wife; my aunt. I never ever heard him say anything about salvation, Christ, etc. but she did, and he was always with her. I think her blind faith was enough faith for both of them. Thus, her faith generated for him a faith in Christ that otherwise might never have existed.
There was a time in my life that I simply could not understand how anyone could simply have blind faith. For me it required proof and I would dive into script and draw analytical conclusions. You know, things like Isaiah and the teil tree (KJV v.6:13), that produces a sap like turpentine although I can not remember where I got that information or derived that conclusion. Also my analysis of the 666 that represents 400 for Christ's church and 266 for the false and current government of the Catholic Church.
Yet, my aunt Darlene does no such analysis. Interestingly, she stands in the background of the family. Yes, she has a loud husband that stands out but she has no claim to fame. She has always been poor, not popular, a funny laugh, and her children are nothing to write about. She is for the most part a side note; not spectacular in any way. Yet when I think of her she stands out above the rest beautifully following Christ. A staunch example to her brothers and sisters of what faith in Christ looks; no proof required. She is such a good example to everyone.
For those of you whom have blind faith Thank you for the great example that you are.
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Post by rt on Feb 22, 2019 9:11:25 GMT -6
My husband and I experienced spiritual abuse, except for us we knew it was happening right from the start. We tried to confront it and in doing so the church was seriously affected. The abuser was the Pastor, he wanted to change the trajectory of the church, going against our agreed upon constitution and my husband, an elder at the time privately called him on it. The result was that the pastor made a public effort to discredit my husband and his reputation. It did not end well for him or for the church, this pastor caused a huge upheaval within the body because he wanted his own way and was willing to split the church, to get it. In the end it was discovered that he falsified his credentials to get the job. Once that cat was out of the bag he resigned. We also discovered that he had left other churches in similar conditions, which he also failed to disclose. It was extremely difficult for us personally, because people blamed us for the problems, even though we acted with integrity, but they were unwilling to admit the Pastor lacked integrity, because well, he is the Pastor and Pastors can do no wrong, it must be us and not him that is the problem. So all the people who had been around a while who knew us, understood that we were not at fault, but the Pastor had gained a whole following of new congregants who he brought into the church who worshiped the ground he walked on, who believed every word he said and believed that we were at fault. Ultimately the church split after he resigned, not knowing that he had lied, they basically put their hands over their ears and refused to hear it. It pulled through and thrived for a while afterward, but it was never the same and has really gone downhill in recent years. We are no longer there.
At the heart of the issue is pride and ego. Men in leadership have to be held accountable, if they are unwilling to do so- fire them immediately.
This to me is not what I would call "blind faith". Faith itself requires no evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be faith. Our faith in Christ is the evidence of our belief in Him and His word. To me blind faith is following without questioning, following without knowing what or who it is you are following. It is a babe's faith who trusts in those who appear to have the sustenance to support them, we all start here.
That kind of blind faith... is blind...open your eyes and see. I do not believe it is some kind of badge of honor to remain blind. There is a sweet innocence to that condition, especially in a new believer, but there is also a vulnerability to deception. God wants us to mature, to learn, to grow and to understand that there are wolves in sheep's clothing among us. The only way to spot them is to understand God's word for oneself and not blindly follow others who tell us what it means. You can't spot a counterfeit if you aren't familiar with the genuine article.
Those who are mature in their understanding need to guide those babes in a way that brings them to maturity themselves, that is called discipleship. They also need to protect their young ones from those who would deceive them and desire to devour them. The sad fact is that in many churches it is the babes that are leading, and they are easy pray for those wolves hiding among them. Discipleship doesn't seem to happen in our churches anymore. It is sad.
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Post by mike on Feb 22, 2019 11:43:46 GMT -6
I "liked" your response rt but I am saddened by this and realize it is our fallen nature that causes this. I cant agree more that pride & ego are the main culprit here. When I was involved in the church where this occurred my dad who does not acknowledge Christ (please pray for him) said of the pastor "i dont trust that guy, he's arrogant". When we (my brother & I) heard that we defended the pastor until the Lord removed the veil from our eyes. Father provide clear sight to those who find themselves in situations such as this, both victim and victimizer.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 22, 2019 21:36:42 GMT -6
I have been dwelling on this topic. Let us put ourselves in, say, 100 AD.... what did folks have back then? No published 'Bible: but oral spreading of the Good News... and then, oral versions were taken seriously. Many had no script-ability (written words/reading ability of a language other than their own), did they? Classes of people could not read, but what was the case for spreading news? Whole 'nations' that did not experience Christ.. for example, the area around Austria, or the areas south of Ethiopia...what about the outer parts of Russia? Japan?
My point: I imagine those back then relied upon the "Helper". They LET the HS do His work. They said, not only for the jew but for the gentile, that there was a new covenant... so when we look at our modern day leader, has that person the same Faith in the HS? The human does not make a person believe, or convince a person, but it is thru hearing of truth...and from there on ward, a person should "let-go" and Let GOD!!!!
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Post by rt on Feb 23, 2019 11:30:13 GMT -6
I have been dwelling on this topic. Let us put ourselves in, say, 100 AD.... what did folks have back then? No published 'Bible: but oral spreading of the Good News... and then, oral versions were taken seriously. Many had no script-ability (written words/reading ability of a language other than their own), did they? Classes of people could not read, but what was the case for spreading news? Whole 'nations' that did not experience Christ.. for example, the area around Austria, or the areas south of Ethiopia...what about the outer parts of Russia? Japan? My point: I imagine those back then relied upon the "Helper". They LET the HS do His work. They said, not only for the jew but for the gentile, that there was a new covenant... so when we look at our modern day leader, has that person the same Faith in the HS? The human does not make a person believe, or convince a person, but it is thru hearing of truth...and from there on ward, a person should "let-go" and Let GOD!!!! Oral spreading of the word of God was certainly taken seriously back then. But we cannot, nor should we put ourselves back there with them. We have God's written word and should avail ourselves of it. Yes...we need the Holy Spirit as much as they did, we need to rely upon Him as they did, having the written word isn't what keeps us from doing that. What keeps us from relying on the spirit is the same thing that has always kept humans from doing so-----our flesh, there just happens to be a lot more distraction in our world today, entertainment is a huge one. They had that then too, but certainly not to the degree that we have today. Personally I think the same advances in technology that aid in spreading the word of God, have also aided the enemy in distracting people from it. You are correct to say that humans don't make a person believe, but they are the vehicle that God has chosen to spread the good news, orally or otherwise. And babes in Christ can easily be led astray by humans because they are vulnerable, they have not all yet learned what it means to yield to the Holy Spirit in their lives, they don't understand yet what it means to ""let go" and let God". Those more mature believers are an example to them of how to do that. Of course there are exceptions to this, there are some new converts who from the get go are able to recognize the Spirit's leading and follow Him with ease. My experience however, tells me there are many more who struggle.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 23, 2019 17:58:40 GMT -6
rt, You may have be saying what I meant, in a better way, and this quote from you defines what I mean. This situation for any believer new or life-long. There are churches that stay far far away from teaching Who is the Holy Spirit, and never cover what Paul was teaching that we are to live according to the Spirit..etc etc. I was not suggesting to ignore the written Word, but many came to Faith without a bible. My gut feeling was that prior to organized churches with rules, catachisms, memberships, etc, that those spreading the Good News had an active, upfront Faith in the Power of the Holy Spirit that in my opinion is lacking in many of our modern day churches. Our own pastor did a sermon on this, which validated the thoughts I had on the topic. We are no different in behavior now then they were back then. The Word was is and will be Unchanged. I know you know that, just am stating for the sake of sakes. The difference between then and now is we have 2000 years of man making a mess of it all whether over-complicating it or over-simplifying it, and for sure squelching it. My personal experience with my husband's unbelief was to get out of the way of the HS. I can not give you an explicit example, but it had to do with me realizing there is nothing that I can do or point out to him, but to TRUST the Lord has had him right where HE wants him. Being "one flesh" with my hubby, it was clear that I needed to LET the HS/Jesus be the spiritual Covering over our marriage. In lifting that to Him, and understanding coverings, a barrier has begun to be broken between my husband and me when it comes to Truth. The Lord (HS) reminded me to search my own heart, follow the fruits of the Holy Spirit, to gird my own loins with Truth, assemble that whole armor of the Holy Spirit Himself, so as to check the enemy at the door when it came to our marriage and Faith. I did not get this teaching until just very recently in my life. Learning what it is to Walk by the Spirit has changed many things for this household. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
We must address the spiritual forces even with new believers. That is where I have come to stand on the matter.
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Post by rt on Feb 24, 2019 13:01:00 GMT -6
Absolutely in agreement with you! (I misunderstood your previous post).
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Post by socalexile on Feb 24, 2019 16:54:27 GMT -6
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