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Post by kjs on Feb 11, 2019 6:19:58 GMT -6
Just wondering how many people have "noticed" this about "water" in the creation of earth....
For example - no where in the bible -- are we told "water" is created.... we are told Light, Land, Sun, Moon, Plants, Animals ... were all created. Yet WATER is never said to be created... (yes, it is assumed to be created) -- but it is never said to be created....
Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning, God created the universe. 2 When the earth was as yet unformed and desolate, with the surface of the ocean depths shrouded in darkness, and while the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters, 3 God said, “Let there be light!” So there was light. [ISV]
Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. [NKJV]
Alright -- honestly who noticed this before? Does this not appear to "read" that "WATER" was preexisting?
OK, OK -- I can tell some are still not convinced ... so how about this little reference in 2 Peter
2 Peter 3: 5 But they deliberately ignore the fact that long ago the heavens existed and the earth was formed by God’s word out of water and with water,
Did you catch that? The earth was created "out of Water and with Water"
Just something to make one go Hmmmm....
And by all means -- please feel free to share anywhere in the bible were it says "water" was created............
So Ponder -- has water always existed?
OR was it created with the Angels -- long ago -- just preexisted before the creation of the earth..........
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Post by Natalie on Feb 11, 2019 8:45:09 GMT -6
I guess I always put verses one and two together ... He created the heavens and the Earth and that when He created the Earth He made it with land and water, but unformed. I don't know what that would have looked like but on days to follow He starts moving things around... separating water from water and land from water. I would say then that is when earth got it's form.
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Post by Natalie on Feb 11, 2019 9:22:05 GMT -6
Just so happens that part of my Bible reading this morning was from Ps 104. Sounds like creation:
You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever, You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters stood above the mountains. At Your rebuke they fled; At the voice of Your thunder they hastened away. They went up over the mountains; They went down into the valleys, To the place which You founded for them. You have set a boundary that they may not pass over, That they may not return to cover the earth. (Ps 104:5-9)
Standing alone, that might also describe the great flood, but the Psalm goes on to describe how he takes care of the animals, gave birds homes, causes grass to grow, created the sun and moon, etc.
Sounds like at the beginning of creation the earth was covered in water. When He created the earth, that is how He began.
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Post by kjs on Feb 11, 2019 11:05:58 GMT -6
Part of it sounds like the flood (but other parts could be creation)
IN Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Can seem to indicate that the creation announcement of "heavens and the earth" -- does seem to imply and "everything within them"....
BUT to me... "The earth was without form and void" seems to imply "that there just was not anything there"
VOID -- Containing no matter; empty. Not occupied; unfilled; Completely lacking ; Synonyms -- empty.
Yet, the very next sentence (phrase) "and darkness was over the face of the deep" and then later "face of the waters."
which seems to imply "the deep" (which is not defined) -- is in fact deep water.....
I do not know -- maybe making a mountain out of a molehill here.....
BUT it seems to me ..... that water was NEVER created .....
Here is my theory (AND IT IS ONLY A THEORY - and not fully developed yet)
We have all heard these phrases......
Water is the elixir or life Water is the source of life Water is the essence of life Water is the substance of life (and this list could go on and on -- about the importance of water)
John 4:4 "... but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." John 7:37 "...From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" Jeremiah 17:13 "...they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD." Zechariah 14:8 "...And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem..." Revelation 21:6 "...one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost...." Revelation 22:1 "...Then he showed me a river of the water of life...."
What if God the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit -- are "The Living Water"
The reason Water was never created is because it is a part of the Living God......
Who knows -- I am nobody -- I have no PHD or even a Masters....
BUT it seems to me ....... That water was never "created" -- and if it was never "created" -- then it implies it is eternal and if so God is eternal -- so could they be one in the same?
Just throwing ideas out .....
BUT just this weekend -- it came to me -- that Water was never specifically created .... UNLIKE ..... Light, Land.........
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Post by Natalie on Feb 11, 2019 12:08:52 GMT -6
Those are interesting thoughts. I have no idea.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 11, 2019 14:54:28 GMT -6
1In the beginning of God’s preparing the heavens (haš-šā-ma-yim) and the earth(hā-’ā-reṣ.) — 2the earth (wə-hā-’ā-reṣ), hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep (ṯə-hō-wm; deep, sea, abyss), and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters (ham-mā-yim.), I like this young's literal translation here, and look at the root word used for heavens: has-sa-mayim, face of the waters: ham-mayim It could be then that the waters are contained within the 'heavens' creation. But also note the use of the word preparing.. this will lead to my point about the first 3 verses of Genesis not being what we all thought it has been about, which is the making of planet earth and the starry heavenly realm... But first let me ask, could it be that verse 1 of Genesis is a statement of Truth and the following verses an elaboration? Just a thought... but here is something that I have pondered which is along the lines to kjs' thinking: Maybe verses 2 and 3 have nothing to do with the "creation" of the earth and seas and atmospheres, but something else: There is something else that is not commanded into existence, and that appears to be "darkness." We are only told that darkness was on the face of the abyss, and that the Spirit of God was fluttering on the face of the waters.. Is this literal or are we looking at something much "deeper" here? If water always was, and darkness was too, it is telling me that God is the mediator between them. But, based on the Hebrew words for heaven (mayim) , perhaps the waters are inclusive of "heaven" and we see the Spirit being that which "flutters" on the face of said waters...to separate the darkness, but not being part of the darkness. Me and my wordiness are not making my point: Heavens=waters=Spirit, and the Spirit seperates (sets it apart from) the Darkness, in this picture presented in verse 2. But God does more in regards to this darkness: He creates a situation of Light... 3and God saith, ‘Let light be;’ and light is. 4And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness, 5and God calleth to the light ‘Day,’ and to the darkness(darkness, obscurity) He hath called ‘Night;’ and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day one.The 'sun" and "moon" were not created yet, not even until the 4th day...so what is this source of Light that is good? and John tells us this to back up my point: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.Are we really seeing a picture of the creation of the planet and the solar system, or are we seeing the creation of the situation between God and darkness, which is, namely Promise of the Lord Jesus Christ? I am not suggesting that Christ is being created here, as He was and Is and Is to Come..but this "event" was performed by God for the very purpose of his ways and means are a pattern and a plan and a purpose, and He relayed this to Moses this way. we go on to learn more about "water" and there is more elaboration on the heavens. So, when we get to this part of Genesis, I am thinking in actual literal existances of bodies of water, land masses, etc... 6And God saith, ‘Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.’ 7And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so. 8And God calleth to the expanse ‘Heavens;’ and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day second.
9And God saith, ‘Let the waters under the heavens be collected unto one place, and let the dry land be seen:’ and it is so. 10And God calleth to the dry land ‘Earth,’ and to the collection of the waters He hath called ‘Seas;’ and God seeth that [it is] good.
It is just food for thought, and who would ever think there is so much more going on than just words on a piece of paper? IN agreement with you kjs , I think the "waters" is WAY more significant than just a place where we go boating, catch fish and hydrate our bodies..
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Post by cwood85 on Feb 12, 2019 14:26:46 GMT -6
1In the beginning of God’s preparing the heavens (haš-šā-ma-yim) and the earth(hā-’ā-reṣ.) — 2the earth (wə-hā-’ā-reṣ), hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep (ṯə-hō-wm; deep, sea, abyss), and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters (ham-mā-yim.), I like this young's literal translation here, and look at the root word used for heavens: has-sa-mayim, face of the waters: ham-mayim It could be then that the waters are contained within the 'heavens' creation. But also note the use of the word preparing.. this will lead to my point about the first 3 verses of Genesis not being what we all thought it has been about, which is the making of planet earth and the starry heavenly realm... But first let me ask, could it be that verse 1 of Genesis is a statement of Truth and the following verses an elaboration? Just a thought... but here is something that I have pondered which is along the lines to kjs' thinking: Maybe verses 2 and 3 have nothing to do with the "creation" of the earth and seas and atmospheres, but something else: There is something else that is not commanded into existence, and that appears to be "darkness." We are only told that darkness was on the face of the abyss, and that the Spirit of God was fluttering on the face of the waters.. Is this literal or are we looking at something much "deeper" here? If water always was, and darkness was too, it is telling me that God is the mediator between them. But, based on the Hebrew words for heaven (mayim) , perhaps the waters are inclusive of "heaven" and we see the Spirit being that which "flutters" on the face of said waters...to separate the darkness, but not being part of the darkness. Me and my wordiness are not making my point: Heavens=waters=Spirit, and the Spirit seperates (sets it apart from) the Darkness, in this picture presented in verse 2. But God does more in regards to this darkness: He creates a situation of Light... 3and God saith, ‘Let light be;’ and light is. 4And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness, 5and God calleth to the light ‘Day,’ and to the darkness(darkness, obscurity) He hath called ‘Night;’ and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day one.The 'sun" and "moon" were not created yet, not even until the 4th day...so what is this source of Light that is good? and John tells us this to back up my point: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.Are we really seeing a picture of the creation of the planet and the solar system, or are we seeing the creation of the situation between God and darkness, which is, namely Promise of the Lord Jesus Christ? I am not suggesting that Christ is being created here, as He was and Is and Is to Come..but this "event" was performed by God for the very purpose of his ways and means are a pattern and a plan and a purpose, and He relayed this to Moses this way. we go on to learn more about "water" and there is more elaboration on the heavens. So, when we get to this part of Genesis, I am thinking in actual literal existances of bodies of water, land masses, etc... 6And God saith, ‘Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.’ 7And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so. 8And God calleth to the expanse ‘Heavens;’ and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day second.
9And God saith, ‘Let the waters under the heavens be collected unto one place, and let the dry land be seen:’ and it is so. 10And God calleth to the dry land ‘Earth,’ and to the collection of the waters He hath called ‘Seas;’ and God seeth that [it is] good.
It is just food for thought, and who would ever think there is so much more going on than just words on a piece of paper? IN agreement with you kjs , I think the "waters" is WAY more significant than just a place where we go boating, catch fish and hydrate our bodies.. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness is not something created, only an absence of light. A shadow is the blocking or obstruction of light. Maybe the light that was created is this: All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. -Rev 13:8 NIV
And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; -Rev 13:8 YLT
3and God saith, ‘Let light be;’ and light is. 4And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness, 5and God calleth to the light ‘Day,’ and to the darkness(darkness, obscurity) He hath called ‘Night;’ and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day one. ^^^In other words there is a state of being in the light or a state of being in the absence of light, darkness. God who is our Salvation is that bridge out of the darkness into the light. In all of our technologies and advancements, we still cannot create water. I don't think we will ever be able to. We can recycle it, change its state (solid, liquid, gas), manipulate it, but cannot take 2 Hydrogen atoms and combine them with an oxygen atom to create water. We can split an atom and create a devastating and deadly nuclear explosion, but cannot combine atoms to create life giving water. All of our attempts to try and manipulate and control the elements in the same way that God does, results in destruction either immediately or later on in the long run. I think water in these first few verses represent life itself, which later in scriptures it is referred in this way many many times. The living waters, the stream of living waters, when Jesus says "...I can give you water so you never thirst again...." and so on. The living water was there but it did not come to give or bare life until after the light was created and was shone on it. In darkness there was nothing that was LIVING yet. And so we see this as barbiosheepgirl pointed out above: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.
3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (darkness is absence of light, it is non existent or not was created so it cannot comprehend anything). The Word, Jesus, Logos, Life, Light was how God made the waters bring into existence the land, foliage, fruits, vegetables, plants, animals, sea life, births, insects, and lastly us through the light by His Word. 60% of our body is water. God created the world, space, time and everything in 6 days. Nothing can live without water and most things cannot live without light. Except for those few odd creatures that live deep in caves or at the deepest trenches of the ocean, but they still have to have water. His Word/Life/Jesus is the light we LIVE through. There is our life we live now in the waters below the expanse/heavens that is divided or separated into both earth(Adame/our flesh/sin) and the sea. The life we will live after the resurrection, when our curse is no more (which was accomplished at the cross and everything in its time will happen), and the only thing left IS life because death will be gone. When God is all in all (the waters above the expanse) and the division of the waters is removed between the expanse there is only the living waters that are left. Life. These living waters are offered freely as we see in John and Revelation: "he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;' John 7:381Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be anything accursed (our curse is death from sin), but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5And night (darkness is gone, only light and life REMAINS!) will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.Ironically there was the discovery recently of the fountain of the deep that resides in a particular type of stone deep below the crust. It is a vivid and iridescent sapphire color made up of many layers that hold a lot of water. It is believed this layer of stone is under the entire earth. When this stone is compressed, water comes out and it is believed that there is over 10x the amount of water in our current oceans in these deep layers of water filled stone. Well that is my .02 on the meanings of the Waters above and the waters below in scripture and to add a little to what Barb laid out so well above EDITED & ADDED A FEW MORE DETAILS ^^^^^^^^
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 13, 2019 12:58:07 GMT -6
this is a very interesting thread. never really thought about it before. On the first verse of Genesis, I was thinking 'bohoo'(void) could also be translated 'chaos' or 'chaotic', which, to me goes right along with 'without form'. As an artist, if I want to make something with clay, I mix dry clay powder with water and make a lump...without form, and chaotic! So, in the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, was when he made the clay powder(so to speak) and the water. That's just how I always pictured it in my mind, I don't really know. but as for the making of water, I have to disagree. We can make water from hydrogen and oxygen, it's just not feasible in large quantities.
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Post by cwood85 on Feb 13, 2019 13:29:04 GMT -6
this is a very interesting thread. never really thought about it before. On the first verse of Genesis, I was thinking 'bohoo'(void) could also be translated 'chaos' or 'chaotic', which, to me goes right along with 'without form'. As an artist, if I want to make something with clay, I mix dry clay powder with water and make a lump...without form, and chaotic! So, in the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, was when he made the clay powder(so to speak) and the water. That's just how I always pictured it in my mind, I don't really know. but as for the making of water, I have to disagree. We can make water from hydrogen and oxygen, it's just not feasible in large quantities.
Yes as I pointed above about when we try it, things go boom lol! The combination of the chemicals is not hard in theory, but it is extremely dangerous. What we cannot do is make enough water for it to be useful, like drinking water for countries without access to clean water or water to fill dying lakes or bodies of water.
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 13, 2019 13:43:01 GMT -6
ok, I'm sorry, cwood85 , I misunderstood, I thought you meant we couldn't actually make water molecules. I really do hope we get watch a "History of Time" documentary in God's version of an IMAX theater, or perhaps get to read His manuscript, "How I did it."
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Post by kjs on Feb 13, 2019 15:01:51 GMT -6
ok, I'm sorry, cwood85 , I misunderstood, I thought you meant we couldn't actually make water molecules. I really do hope we get watch a "History of Time" documentary in God's version of an IMAX theater, or perhaps get to read His manuscript, "How I did it." I would sign up for that "lecture" or "show"....
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Post by kjs on Feb 13, 2019 15:17:57 GMT -6
Yes as I pointed above about when we try it, things go boom lol! The combination of the chemicals is not hard in theory, but it is extremely dangerous. What we cannot do is make enough water for it to be useful, like drinking water for countries without access to clean water or water to fill dying lakes or bodies of water. Without moving this off into a new direction ....
The "dying lakes or bodies of water" or even just supplying "access to clean water" is a major concern -- right now.
Heck, right now out in "USA West" -- fresh water is "fighting rights" among many of the western states.
And, the number of countries that do not have "access to clean water" -- is really shocking.........
Unfortunately, many people (especially here in the USA) -- think someone is "a liberal, tree-hugging, leftist" if the simply mention we all need to conserve and protect our fresh water supplies.....
check out this fact
in 2018 Nestle, had been extracting and exporting up to 250 gallons a minute from a well in Evart, Michigan. Nestle filed for a new permit that would allow the company to pump 400 gallons of water each minute of the day, 365 days a year.
Here are some fun water facts link
Thing is we (everyone) should be alarmed at the rate we are going through our fresh water supply.....
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 13, 2019 16:02:49 GMT -6
Kansas and Colorado have been making a lot of lawyers rich for the last century over the water in the Arkansas river. The river is nothing like it was when I was a kid. If you stand on the this north side of the valley three miles south of my house and see probably 30-50 miles east down the valley, and at night beginning in the spring it looks like fireflies from the beacons on all the circle irrigation sprinklers.
By the way, in another thread we were talking about where we are from. my Avatar picture was taken from my house looking east south east.
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Post by cwood85 on Feb 13, 2019 17:11:34 GMT -6
Yes as I pointed above about when we try it, things go boom lol! The combination of the chemicals is not hard in theory, but it is extremely dangerous. What we cannot do is make enough water for it to be useful, like drinking water for countries without access to clean water or water to fill dying lakes or bodies of water. Without moving this off into a new direction ....
The "dying lakes or bodies of water" or even just supplying "access to clean water" is a major concern -- right now.
Heck, right now out in "USA West" -- fresh water is "fighting rights" among many of the western states.
And, the number of countries that do not have "access to clean water" -- is really shocking.........
Unfortunately, many people (especially here in the USA) -- think someone is "a liberal, tree-hugging, leftist" if the simply mention we all need to conserve and protect our fresh water supplies.....
check out this fact
in 2018 Nestle, had been extracting and exporting up to 250 gallons a minute from a well in Evart, Michigan. Nestle filed for a new permit that would allow the company to pump 400 gallons of water each minute of the day, 365 days a year.
Here are some fun water facts link
Thing is we (everyone) should be alarmed at the rate we are going through our fresh water supply.....
That Nestle deal is disgusting. I live in Michigan and no resident here was happy or wanted that at all. Many fought against it very diligently. Our Lakes are already polluted and mistreated so badly already and now it’s also ok to suck the fresh water out to bottle and resell it... bottled water is the biggest and greediest scam.
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Post by kjs on Feb 14, 2019 10:40:36 GMT -6
That Nestle deal is disgusting. I live in Michigan and no resident here was happy or wanted that at all. Many fought against it very diligently. Our Lakes are already polluted and mistreated so badly already and now it’s also ok to suck the fresh water out to bottle and resell it... bottled water is the biggest and greediest scam. YOU can say that again!
Except for the bottles, and electricity to run the the machine processing the water ........ Just what are their costs? Maybe some delivery costs for getting to warehouses .... but other then that -- they are done with any costs .... (because the stores that sell the bottles of water -- take care of any other transportation needs....)
Maybe bribes to keep county officials -- approving the entitlement to take water from the public well of water......
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