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Post by bondservant on Nov 5, 2018 7:49:42 GMT -6
Pastor Thad explores the history of Islam and Catholicism as well as how they are intermingled with the Babylonian East Mysticism religion.
What did God really say?
Who are the 7 Kingdoms? Who is the other "is not yet come"?
Revelation 17
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2018 18:22:39 GMT -6
This was interesting, thanks for sharing
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Post by schooldad3 on Nov 5, 2018 19:26:15 GMT -6
There is not an ounce of truth to this. This guy is a clown. I heard about this back in the mid 1980s in a chick tract. It is utter nonsense and any one with a history of the area can readily see it. I created a series on the doctrine of antichrist that takes people step by step through its early developments to the modern era. I would be willing to debate pastor Thad personally on this.
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2018 21:46:30 GMT -6
There is not an ounce of truth to this. This guy is a clown. I heard about this back in the mid 1980s in a chick tract. It is utter nonsense and any one with a history of the area can readily see it. I created a series on the doctrine of antichrist that takes people step by step through its early developments to the modern era. I would be willing to debate pastor Thad personally on this. Schooldad - just because you think your theory is accurate does not give you the platform to denigrate this person. Disagrement with a view point is ok but name calling and completely disregarding this view as incorrect is a violation of the forum rules. Please reacquaint yourself with the rules here and the graciousness of our Savior as this type of speech is not representative of Him
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Post by rt on Nov 5, 2018 22:50:11 GMT -6
Verse 11 clearly states that the beast that was and is not , is one of seven kings and also an eighth. A KING- not a nation. The woman who rides the beast is described as mystery Babylon, not the beast itself. This guy is mixed up. The passage refers to the beast as "he" and "himself", nations are not described this way.
And if you want to talk about a nation that was and is not and has come to life- um...the glaring and obvious nation would be Israel, not Babylon. But the passage is not talking about a nation that is resurrected, it is talking about a man.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2018 5:36:57 GMT -6
Verse 11 clearly states that the beast that was and is not , is one of seven kings and also an eighth. A KING- not a nation. The woman who rides the beast is described as mystery Babylon, not the beast itself. This guy is mixed up. The passage refers to the beast as "he" and "himself", nations are not described this way. And if you want to talk about a nation that was and is not and has come to life- um...the glaring and obvious nation would be Israel, not Babylon. But the passage is not talking about a nation that is resurrected, it is talking about a man. Perhaps the best way to read Chapter 17 is to make a division between what John saw and what the angel explains. So, Verses 17:1-6 pertains to what John saw, and Verses 17:7-18 are verses pertaining to what the angel explains. Next, identify those things in the angels explanation that pertain to what John saw as follows: The angel's riddle in Verse 17:8 1) John saw the beast in Verse 17:3 2) They that dwell on the earth shall wonder and this links to Verse 13:2 3) Whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world links to Verse 13:8 4) When they behold the beast that was and is not links to Verse 13:1 It should be easy to see that the riddle of Verse 17:8 transitions from the beast with the woman upon it to the beast that does not have the woman upon it. That is, the beast of Verse 17:3 transitions into the beast of Verse 13:1 and that is what the Verse 17:8 riddle is about. The remainder of the angel's explanation in Verses 17:9-18 expound upon this concept. Verse 17:9-10, the woman is upon the seven heads/mountains. Five are fallen, and one is, (and this one is in Verse 17:3 that John sees), and number seven is not yet come. However, when the seventh comes, he also has the woman sitting upon him. Thus, the woman sits upon all seven heads/mountains. The five that are fallen, the one that "is" in Verse 17:3, and the one that is coming. Verse 17:11 is the conclusion of the Verse 17:9-11 expansion upon the 17:8 riddle. Next, the angel expounds upon the Verse 17:3 beast (the one that is, number 6), and how it transitions into the Verse 13:1 beast (with out the woman, number 8), as follows: v. 17:12-14, There are ten horns that receive power with the Verse 17:3 beast (number 6). These ten horns make war with the Lamb. v. 17:15, This is an aside in which the angel refers back to the waters that John saw in Verse 17:1-2. v. 17:16-18, The ten horns hate the whore and destroy her. As you can see, the angel's explanation does not expound upon the seventh beast; the one that comes for a "short space." Instead, the angel jumps from the sixth beast in Verse 17:3 to the eighth beast in Verse 13:1. However, the next beast in Chapter 13 is referenced in Verse 13:11. It is this false prophet that causes the rise and adoration of the eighth beast. Thus, the 7th beast is the false prophet of Verse 13:11 that causes the rise of the 8th beast in Verses 13:12-17. Notice in Verse 13:12 that this seventh beast (v. 13:11) "exerciseth all the power of the first beast (the sixth of Verse 17:3) before him." At his point it is simply a matter of applying Daniel to the sixth, seventh, and eighth beasts that transition to attack the Lamb and the whore (vv. 17:14-18). One final point, the angel's explanation in Verses 17:8-18 include Verses 17:1-6 and Chapter 13. In schooldad3's analysis I see the 7th beast as Iran and the 8th beast as Turkey and the Ottoman Empire or something like that, as a regional power in the second 3.5 years of the seven years of tribulation. In the European model I see the 7th beast as Francis and the 8th as Russia as a world power in the first 3.5 years of the seven years of tribulation.
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Post by rt on Nov 6, 2018 8:42:31 GMT -6
Hi boraddict , You quoted my post in yours, to be clear are you saying that you disagree? you seem to say that you agree that the 7th beast is a nation and not a person agreeing with the man in the video? Is that correct? You claim that the angel doesn't expound on the seventh beast yet that is not entirely the case: Clearly the "beast" is a king, a person a "he". "He" is one of the seven kings who goes to destruction. By deduction we know that he is in fact the seventh king because the passage says that there are seven, and six are accounted for. The only "king" remaining is the one yet to come, who remains for a short time. It is simple logic. Verse 10 refers back to verse 8. The beast was and is not, He existed and now doesn't exist, but will come up out of the abyss. How can a nation come up out of the abyss? The abyss being the bottomless pit. It is clear that the beast is allegorical, like the woman is. The beast may in fact represent a city or a nation, but it is the king of that nation who is in view. I believe the seven heads are seven kings which represent seven nations that they headed or will head. We see a similar description of the beast in Revelation 13. There is a consistent theme here- one of the heads is slain/fatally wounded (dead) and then is healed and brought back to life. This causes the people of earth to be amazed and worship him- a person not a nation. In chapter 13 he is described as the mouth of the fatally wounded head. Remember this is a word picture, and allegorical means to describe something that is real. Personally I think what the beast is, is a conglomerate of Daniel's beasts. The image of Revelation 13 is described using the same allegorical components as Daniel's beasts representing the kings of various nations. 1.The Lion- Babylon 2. The Bear- Medo-Persia, 3,4,5,6. The four leopard heads of the Grecian empire, and number 7. The final kingdom with the head of a Lion- Babylon with the teeth of Iron -Rome. Each one of the first 6 had a particular King and leaders that played a significant role in Biblical history, and that would lead to the final gentile nation that would rule over Jerusalem in particular. The Beast of Revelation 13 and 17 is I believe a combination of Daniel's beasts. So yes nations are implicated, but ultimately it is the ruler of the nation that is ultimately responsible for the actions of it. In Daniel 7, an angel interprets Daniel's vision of the four beasts The final beast would correlate with the beasts described in Revelation: Interestingly the angel describes the fourth beast as a final kingdom, but we also know that he has said above that it is also a final king. We know that one of the horns of this beast rises up to be the mouthpiece of that nation. It is he that is in view. So while the "beasts" may indeed represent kingdoms/ nations. The one in prophetic view is the king or leader of that country.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2018 10:11:16 GMT -6
Hi boraddict , You quoted my post in yours, to be clear are you saying that you disagree? you seem to say that you agree that the 7th beast is a nation and not a person agreeing with the man in the video? Is that correct? In my opinion, John used "beast" to represent government. Thus, the head of the government is a king and the nation state of the government is the kingdom. So in Verse 17:9-10 the seven heads (v. 9) are the seven kings (v. 10), and since we are told that the seven heads are seven mountains (v. 9), and mountains means kingdoms, then the seven kings are of seven kingdoms. That is, the seven heads of government (beasts) preside over seven kingdoms (beasts); because, a kingdom has a government and a head of government. Similar to "heads" is "horns." A horn is a head of government. Thus, ten horns (v. 12) are ten kings (v. 12) that receive power 1 hour with the beast (government) because they had no kingdom (v. 12). That is, these ten become kings (beasts) when they receive power as kings in this one kingdom (beast). That is, these ten kings receive power when they preside in the government of the kingdom (the beast). There are several ways to say it; but it basically comes down to ten kings having power in the government of the kingdom. That is, the beast in Verse 17:12 is the government of the kingdom and ten kings participate in that power. These ten kings independently presided over their own kingdoms and governments. So we have ten governments that have power with the government of the beast, and these ten governments have ten leaders (horns). Thus, in the BoR, the context of the verse helps define if the beast is the head of government or the government of the kingdom. In Verses 19:20 and 20:10 the beast is the man that is the head/horn/king/leader of government, and in Verses 17:3 and 13:1 the beast is the government of the kingdom having seven and ten heads/horns/kings/leaders. Thus, a beast is a head of government and a beast is a government. Notice in Verse 12:3 the government is that of the great red dragon that drew one third of the stars of heaven. And in Verse 4:6 the government has four heads: the lion, calf, man, and eagle. These four are, God the Father, Lord Jesus, Micheal, and John. That is, the four heads of government (beasts) presiding over the resurrection of mankind from the earth are these four; and one, the eagle (John) speaks to the sixth angel in Verses 9:12-13. And how does John speak to the 6th angel? In my opinion it is through the BoR, we being the 6th angel.
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Post by schooldad3 on Nov 6, 2018 11:24:14 GMT -6
You are correct. Mountains and kingdoms are used synonymously many times in the bible. I have known this for some time now but I just finished a course on ancient Assyria from Munich Germany and it was very clear to see the mountain is the kingdom itself and kingship refers to the prevailing government. All ancient mesopotamian empires were known by their mountain or tower. All deities were associated with a mountain or tower. All kings where associated with a mountain or tower. The mere fact that we are told the seven heads are seven mountains and they are seven kings tells us the informed reader every thing we need to know. They were specific regions with a an established govt. The horns that come out of the heads/mountains are specific powers that rise up from within the region of the mountain/kingdom. This was well known and clearly understood in the ancient world and is easy to see when one is educated in the manners and customs of the ancient middle east. I highly recommend that people on this blog do more to educate themselves before commentating.
www.coursera.org/lecture/organising-empire-assyrian-way/introduction-to-ancient-assyria-Yb21t
Book Recommendations
Ancient Mesopotamia portrait of a dead civilization A Leo Oppenhiem.
Manners and Customs of Bible Times White.
This you tube video is the last in a nine part series. About 2/3 thru it address the topic of the seven heads. mountains and kings and the ten powers that came out of them.
www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&ar=1&video_id=tRm9EsKQtOw
(Added this link, because the one above was invalid)
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2018 11:58:09 GMT -6
You are correct. Mountains and kingdoms are used synonymously many times in the bible. I have known this for some time now but I just finished a course on ancient Assyria from Munich Germany and it was very clear to see the mountain is the kingdom itself and kingship refers to the prevailing government. All ancient mesopotamian empires were known by their mountain or tower. All deities were associated with a mountain or tower. All kings where associated with a mountain or tower. The mere fact that we are told the seven heads are seven mountains and they are seven kings tells us the informed reader every thing we need to know. They were specific regions with a an established govt. The horns that come out of the heads/mountains are specific powers that rise up from within the region of the mountain/kingdom. This was well known and clearly understood in the ancient world and is easy to see when one is educated in the manners and customs of the ancient middle east. I highly recommend that people on this blog do more to educate themselves before commentating.
www.coursera.org/lecture/organising-empire-assyrian-way/introduction-to-ancient-assyria-Yb21t
Book Recommendations
Ancient Mesopotamia portrait of a dead civilization A Leo Oppenhiem.
Manners and Customs of Bible Times White.
This you tube video is the last in a nine part series. About 2/3 thru it address the topic of the seven heads. mountains and kings and the ten powers that came out of them.
www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&ar=1&video_id=tRm9EsKQtOw
Thank you schooldad3. I think that I am in line with your analysis. Did you notice something in my comment that might be in question. Except of course the 3.5 years of which I think your analysis applies. The reason that I say this is that the beast, to my understanding, is a world government. Islam will never be a world government but regional. Thus, the application of your analysis is to the second 3.5 years in which Islam takes over the middle east. The world powers must be knocked out first, then the regional powers can take over.
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Post by schooldad3 on Nov 6, 2018 13:41:57 GMT -6
The lingo is very descript. The beast looks like a leopard with the feet of a bear and the mouth of the lion. The book of Daniel is our guide. The territory depicted as the beast is the territory of the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empire under alexander the great. It is an exact geographic match of the two Islamic empires the arose with the fall of the Greco roman period in 1453 A.D. The seven heads/mountains/kings are the Hittite, Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greco Roman and Islamic empires. Watch my whole series than come back to me. It is all based on facts that can not be disputed.
BTW I do not see a world wide Islamic empire either but the geography of the region is Islamic.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2018 13:57:34 GMT -6
The lingo is very descript. The beast looks like a leopard with the feet of a bear and the mouth of the lion. The book of Daniel is our guide. The territory depicted as the beast is the territory of the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empire under alexander the great. It is an exact geographic match of the two Islamic empires the arose with the fall of the Greco roman period in 1453 A.D. The seven heads/mountains/kings are the Hittite, Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greco Roman and Islamic empires. Watch my whole series than come back to me. It is all based on facts that can not be disputed.
BTW I do not see a world wide Islamic empire either but the geography of the region is Islamic. One thing that might apply is the recent mass migration of Islam into Europe.
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Post by rt on Nov 6, 2018 16:01:37 GMT -6
Totally agree that the seven heads/mountains represent kingdoms. But they are also kings. A nation cannot come out of the abyss, but a personality can, who will inhabit the final king, also known as the little horn, the mouth of the Revelation 13 beast and the eighth king of revelation 17, the son of perdition, the antichrist, and the lawless one. A nation cannot go to destruction, which I believe is talking about the lake of fire not just simply the fact that it is destroyed. It is a person.
You are all free to disagree though. So feel free to carry on
God Bless
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2018 19:07:42 GMT -6
Totally agree that the seven heads/mountains represent kingdoms. But they are also kings. A nation cannot come out of the abyss, but a personality can, who will inhabit the final king, also known as the little horn, the mouth of the Revelation 13 beast and the eighth king of revelation 17, the son of perdition, the antichrist, and the lawless one. A nation cannot go to destruction, which I believe is talking about the lake of fire not just simply the fact that it is destroyed. It is a person. You are all free to disagree though. So feel free to carry on God Bless rt you are correct. the beast that takes over the world is the beast of Verse 17:3 that transitions into the 7th beast that is Francis the false prophet that transitions into (in my opinion) the president of Russia. These two men move to take over the world as the beast that is the president of Russia, and his cheerleader Francis. However, this beast lasts for only 3.5 years and then is put down, freeing the world. Once freed, the regional powers make their move and there are regional wars throughout the earth. It is here that the temple is built (Rev. 11) and the Muslims make their move as is depicted in schooldad3's analysis. That is, unless the Muslims can make a move on the world scene, then their effort is regional. Schooldad 3 has pretty much proven that Daniel is speaking to the Islamic effort; however, it is as I said, regional. Since the beast that moves upon the world can not be Islam, (because China and other nations will not convert to Islam), then the world beast is Russia the bear (Dan. 7:5) and the false prophet Francis (proved by the 266 of the Catholic church government, 666-400=266). Thus, the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation have a dual application; first to the world beast and his false prophet, and secondly to the regional beast and his false prophet. That is, Islam can not move from under the western world thumb until the west is defeated by Russia and Francis. Then, when Russia and Francis are put down at the 3.5 year mark, Islam will mass its forces against Israel. Again, I can not see Islam on the world stage against the U. S. secular government. It must be Russia and Francis.
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Post by bondservant on Nov 7, 2018 8:07:40 GMT -6
There is not an ounce of truth to this. This guy is a clown. I heard about this back in the mid 1980s in a chick tract. It is utter nonsense and any one with a history of the area can readily see it. I created a series on the doctrine of antichrist that takes people step by step through its early developments to the modern era. I would be willing to debate pastor Thad personally on this. I do not recall ever reading about a "chick track" about any of this stuff. But with all due respect sir, the rules in a real debate are that if you have to resort to ad-hominem then you automatically lose the debate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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