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Post by kjs on Mar 12, 2019 11:51:59 GMT -6
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Post by kjs on Mar 12, 2019 12:04:01 GMT -6
This map represents the LAND Promised to Abraham -- remember the covenant made with Abraham was ONE SIDE -- meaning God made it and guaranteed it.... THEREFORE nothing the descendants of Abraham do or do not do has any affect of the actual boundaries of the Land given.
HOWEVER (and this is a pretty big however) -- while the granted land will eventually be given to the house of Israel -- it appears the WHEN it is given is dependent upon when they put their full trust in Jesus Christ. So this may be one of those time dependent prophecies that occur at the end.........
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Post by mike on Mar 12, 2019 12:23:36 GMT -6
Right! But they havent been following Him for the last 2000 yrs. So what gives them the right to the land now? Once they acknowledge their error, the land will be theirs, not before, not now. This dividing the land we look for may not exactly be what we think and the "peace plan" may amount to just another day in April
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Post by mike on Mar 12, 2019 12:35:48 GMT -6
Thats the map I was trying load originally KJ! (the one out to Iraq and into Egypt)
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Post by cwood85 on Mar 12, 2019 12:37:21 GMT -6
For further dialogue, what do we think of passages such as these? Both of these passages are clearly talking about Jerusalem. Look at Isaiah 29:6. This has not happened yet. Look at Jeremiah 19:11 where it says Jerusalem cannot be made whole again. Clearly THAT has not occured yet because Jerusalem is here and very established and populated. Thoughts? Is this a repeating pattern?
Isa 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
Isa 29:2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
Isa 29:3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
Isa 29:4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
Isa 29:5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
Isa 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
Jer 19:8 And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.
Jer 19:9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
Jer 19:10 Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee,
Jer 19:11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.
Jer 19:12 Thus will I do unto this place, saith the LORD, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet:
Jer 19:13 And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.
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Post by kjs on Mar 12, 2019 15:40:36 GMT -6
Right! But they havent been following Him for the last 2000 yrs. So what gives them the right to the land now? Once they acknowledge their error, the land will be theirs, not before, not now. This dividing the land we look for may not exactly be what we think and the "peace plan" may amount to just another day in April I am by no means an expert and this is just a guess (which may or may not pan out).....
BUT Just as Daniel repented for HIS People (see Daniel 9 for details) and they were "RESTORED to the land" -- in "trying times" -- most likely meaning continuing conflict.....
God seems to be bringing back His People into a nation again and "restoring the land" -- (and by no means is it all of it -- only a portion).....
Maybe, some feel that they do not deserve it yet -- but to my eyes -- it seems God is doing the restoring.... IF IT IS GOD's work -- then it will continue until it is complete...
Maybe the NEW PEACE PLAN -- will just be another day -- than again -- it may be the start of a remarkable point in history......
One I am hoping to watch from the mezzanine section of Heaven...........  |
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Post by sam on Mar 12, 2019 20:23:26 GMT -6
It is an everlasting covenant.....even though Israel failed, and suffered the curse of Deuteronomy 28, ultimately God will redeem Israel, for His Name's sake, not theirs, see Deuteronomy 29-32, Ezekiel 36-37, Jeremiah 31-33. He will restore His people, for His Name sake.....the punishment of the curse of Deuteronomy 28 not withstanding
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Post by sam on Mar 12, 2019 20:32:37 GMT -6
The Everlasting Covenant is repeated 3X in the Old Testament......Genesis 17, 1 Chronicles 16, Psalms 105....verbatim
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Post by sam on Mar 12, 2019 20:49:05 GMT -6
In a nutshell....they screwed up, but it ultimately does not depend on them, for His Name sake, He will make things right........just like us, we screwed up, ultimately it does not depend on us, He will redeem us for His Name sake, and will make all things right.....as it says in Ezekiel 36......
Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God."
and later...
I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”
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Post by mike on Mar 14, 2019 7:19:10 GMT -6
In a nutshell....they screwed up, but it ultimately does not depend on them, for His Name sake, He will make things right........just like us, we screwed up, ultimately it does not depend on us, He will redeem us for His Name sake, and will make all things right.....as it says in Ezekiel 36...... Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God." and later... I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!” Isnt this a direct reference/prophecy of the redemption of Christ and the cleansing we experience through Him & the coming of the Holy Spirit into our hearts? I realize the verse that immediately precedes says "the land" - are you of the opinion or persuasion that this is about the Jews in their after rapture or once the AoD occurs and they realize they missed the first coming of Messiah? OH and nice to see you posting Sam! |
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Post by sam on Mar 14, 2019 14:24:47 GMT -6
Yes, the portion of that verse refers to the New Covenant, first described that way in Jeremiah 31:33, and I don't believe the veil currently over the eyes of most Jews is lifted until "they look upon Him whom they have pierced" in Zechariah 12...and likely represent the 1/3 left after the refinement describe in Zechariah 13, and is culminated in Zechariah 14. Further allusions to this scenario are in Ezekiel 39, after which Israel will know who is their Lord from that time forward.
The physical Land of promise is intimately entwined with the New Covenant as applied to corporate Israel.....notice that in the beginning of Ezekiel 36 that the prophecy initially is literally directed to the Land and mountains of Israel, not the people. Then notice the progression.......He will return Israel to the Land, and THEN they receive a new heart and new spirit. In Ezekiel 37, the two sticks are joined into one, in the Land, and they will dwell there from then on. In Ezekiel 38-39 they are in the Land prior to the onset of the Gog-Magog war, but it isn't until the end of the War that they, and the world, realizes who God is....
Lastly, Jeremiah 31-33 explicitly describes the return of Judah and Israel from exile to the Land of Promise, and is in association with the New Covenant promised to in context to Judah and Israel......Of course, we have been grafted into Israel and are under the blessing of the New Covenant as gentile believers.
My belief is that the rapture occurs after the 6th seal as represented in Revelation 6-7, and prior to the Gog-Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39, which I also believe to be the same war as the Zechariah 12,14 war.....this is a pre-wrath view, prior to the 7th seal and trumpet and bowl judgments. All believers alive right after the 6th seal will be raptured, Jew and Gentile alike. Unbelievers who survive the war will know who the Lord is, from that day forward, as described in the aftermath of both the Gog-Magog war and Zechariah war..which is why I think they are the same war......at the end of each war, whoever is left of all Israel and the world knows who God is.
Thanks Mike, I will drop in from time to time!
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Post by sog on Mar 14, 2019 16:05:39 GMT -6
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The Land
Mar 29, 2019 20:32:22 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by mike on Mar 29, 2019 20:32:22 GMT -6
Lots happening here that I hadn't heard yet so thought I'd post it
Sounds like jpost said Abbas agreed to the deal.
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Post by bondservant on Apr 30, 2019 11:29:01 GMT -6
Israel’s U.N. Ambassador gives the U.N. Security Council a history lesson on the BibleThe United Nations Security Council debate on the Middle East, including the Palestinian question, was not quite business as usual as the council was given a lesson on the Bible. In what was an unusual sight for the Security Council, Israel’s ambassador Danny Danon during his speech covered his head with a black Yarmulke and picked up the Hebrew Bible and quoted from Genesis where God spoke to Abraham. “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant. And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, all the land of Cana’an, for an everlasting possession. And I will be their God.” Danon added: “This is our deed to our land.” He noted that the Jewish people’s right to the Land of Israel is mentioned over a dozen times in the Hebrew Bible. From the book of Genesis; to the Jewish exodus from Egypt; to receiving the Torah on Mount Sinai… and to the realization of God’s covenant in the Holy Land of Israel; the Bible paints a consistent picture. The entire history of our people, and our connection to (the Land of Israel), begins right here.” The Israeli ambassador then turned his attention to the upcoming U.S. peace plan and criticized the Palestinians for calling it, “dead on arrival.” He read out a long list of other peace plans rejected by the Arabs and Palestinians including the 1947 U.N. partition plan, the Camp David Summit of 2000, the Annapolis Conference in 2007 and the Kerry peace initiative of 2014. Danon called on the Palestinians to “accept and recognize the Jewish State of Israel. No Palestinian leader has ever said those words,” he said. Meanwhile, the Palestinian representative Riyad Mansour, speaking ahead of Danon, seemed to take a veiled swipe at President Trump’s negotiating team, as he warned that concessions made by the Palestinians for peace cannot be, “dismissed or ridiculed by newcomers to peacemaking.” He warned the U.S. about its pending peace plan. “We reiterate: any initiative detached from international law and the relevant UN resolutions and dismissive of human rights can neither be viable, nor just, and will not succeed.” More:www.foxnews.com/world/israels-u-n-ambassador-gives-the-u-n-security-council-a-history-lesson-on-the-bible
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Post by mike on Jan 29, 2020 8:47:24 GMT -6
Dividing the Land - I wanted to see what others thoughts on this are? Will this bring judgement on America for being the one who is pushing for this division? I don't think it will.
Every place I look at the land (being divided) I find that the land was given to Abraham and his descendants (forever) but really never ended up in their possession fully. Much of the inheritance was east of the Jordan.
Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. 6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite [was] then in the land. 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land:
This portion of land is commonly described as the land west of the Jordan (which is most of todays Israel) however it also does include a piece of Syria and Lebanon, but no one seems to ever include or debate this, why?
Not long after this in Genesis we see a much larger portion of land being promised - Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
This would be from the Nile to roughly central Iraq, which includes a piece of Egypt (and Gaza) all of Jordan, a northern chunk of Saudi Arabia, southern portion of Syria and probably all of Lebanon.
Deut 1:6 The LORD our God spake unto us in Horeb, saying, Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount: 7 Turn you, and take your journey, and go to the mount of the Amorites, and unto all [the places] nigh thereunto, in the plain, in the hills, and in the vale, and in the south, and by the sea side, to the land of the Canaanites, and unto Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates. 8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
Still even this includes all of Jordan and much of Iraq - why is it that we dont talk about this with "dividing the land"?
Jos 18:2 And there remained among the children of Israel seven tribes, which had not yet received their inheritance. 3 And Joshua said unto the children of Israel, How long [are] ye slack to go to possess the land, which the LORD God of your fathers hath given you? 7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD [is] their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.
So we see that the 2 and a half tribes did posses land in Jordan (modern day) and eventually the rest settled in Canaan. However I would also like to point out:
Jos 15:63 As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out: but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.
Jos 17:12 Yet the children of Manasseh could not drive out [the inhabitants of] those cities; but the Canaanites would dwell in that land. 13 Yet it came to pass, when the children of Israel were waxen strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute; but did not utterly drive them out.
Judg 1:18 Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof. 19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. 20 And they gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he expelled thence the three sons of Anak. 21 And the children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites that inhabited Jerusalem; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Benjamin in Jerusalem unto this day.
Well wow! They left the Canaanites in the land and Jebusites right there in Jerusalem. Does this strike a parallel to the "Deal of the Century" at all? The "inhabitants of the land have always been in the land as a sort of thorn to the Israelites. What makes giving the 'Palestinians' (really mostly Jordanian/Arabs) a place to live an issue as the DEAL sounds as if Jerusalem will be the Israeli's as will most of the rest of the land. Meanwhile this group will have a place to live in the land because the Israelis can't make them leave (drive them out)?
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