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Post by mike on Oct 1, 2018 12:26:05 GMT -6
Gen 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite [was] then in the land. 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. 8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, [having] Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD. 9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. My point in the maps is the original land given to Abraham is not the same land we see as Israel today. Most of the map of the land promised to Abraham included most of Iraq, northern half or so of Saudi Arabia, the east coast of Egypt and the Sinai peninsula, most of Syria, all of Jordan and all of Lebanon. So my questions are why are many so upset over "dividing the land" when the land is already divided?
I thought we could discuss here as I value input from those who contribute
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david
New Member
Posts: 33
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Post by david on Oct 1, 2018 12:57:06 GMT -6
This ties in with something I had been thinking about.
Daniel 9:27 in the KJV begins: And he shall confirm the covenant with many..
Saying THE covenant suggests to me God's covenant with Israel, so I wondered whether it might be a nationalist leader urging Israel to go and claim the land they've been promised. Not that they would do it at that point, but it might cause Israel to look on him favorably.
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The Land
Oct 2, 2018 10:11:20 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Oct 2, 2018 10:11:20 GMT -6
Gen 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite [was] then in the land. 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. 8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, [having] Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD. 9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.I am not a computer novice but man O man I cannot figure out how to put a picture of the map of this region in here! Anyone? Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. My point in the maps is the original land given to Abraham is not the same land we see as Israel today. Most of the map of the land promised to Abraham included most of Iraq, northern half or so of Saudi Arabia, the east coast of Egypt and the Sinai peninsula, most of Syria, all of Jordan and all of Lebanon. So my questions are why are many so upset over "dividing the land" when the land is already divided?
I thought we could discuss here as I value input from those who contribute Glad you mentioned that Mike. How can Israel get back that land unless they war with those countries? And if they have to fight them, they must be part of the beast of the sea, and if so, what religion do most follow today? Not just an outward religion because we also have the god of our belly’s! The land has to be reclaimed and with the countries you listed, with the exception of Saudi Arabia, all were under the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on heads of the beast in some form.
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Post by mike on Oct 2, 2018 10:48:42 GMT -6
From our friend Sam:
The Land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob indeed does not reflect modern day Israel.....I have a couple of thoughts about it which may be helpful:
- Isaiah 26:15 indicates that the full boundary of the Land will not be realized until Messiah comes, as Isaiah 26 in context is a judgement chapter
- While the full boundaries of the Land are not realized yet, they will be in the future once Messiah returns
- There has never been another "country" in Judea and Samaria other than Israel. There were Canaanite city states, but no "country".
- Even though Solomon extended the boundary, and may have exerted some degree of control to the Euphrates, the full extent of the Land has never been fully realized
- After Israel and Judah were conquered, they were followed by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, and then the British...but none of these were incorporated as a "country" in the Land of Promise, rather the Land became a province or mandate of the former
- If the World awards a "country" to the Arabs in the heartland of the ancient Jewish nation, ie Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem, it will be the first time in history another country has existed and been recognized by the rest of the World in Israel proper. This is what constitutes division of the Land in my opinion.....
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The Land
Oct 2, 2018 13:23:06 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Oct 2, 2018 13:23:06 GMT -6
I agree Mike. What else could identify division? I have the opinion the land given to the 12 tribes will be divided and not just the nation. Could you imagine the 12 areas being given to others against God’s will? The arrogance
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Post by kjs on Oct 3, 2018 6:49:58 GMT -6
Israel entered the Promised Land and hundreds of years later, under King Solomon, they occupied a large part, but not all, of the territory which God had promised to them. Israel was required to obey the Law of Moses and, when they failed, God thrust them out of the land. However, God’s promise that they will inherit the land still stands. We see the Jews being brought back to the Promised Land in our day. We expect that God’s word will be fulfilled and that they will enter their full inheritance. The next question is: What are the boundaries of the Promised Land as described in the Bible?
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Post by kjs on Oct 3, 2018 6:53:49 GMT -6
Map showing the borders of the Promised Land, based on Bible. (Genesis 15)
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Post by mike on Oct 3, 2018 9:35:43 GMT -6
I literally have no idea how to get the image I wanted in here uploaded. I digress...thanks for making me look like a dope KJ (I kid) but I wanted to show the image where the line goes all the way to the Euphrates and out into Egypt.
I just tried photobucket as Natalie suggested but I get an "F-" for failing
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Post by nana on Oct 3, 2018 13:42:20 GMT -6
I don't think Israel will get the land until Jesus returns with us.
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Post by nana on Oct 3, 2018 14:14:47 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Oct 8, 2018 12:32:20 GMT -6
some more thoughts from our friend Sam
Joel 3:1-3 indicates that division of the Land is one of the proximate causes of final judgment on the world.....so a good question might be, what does Joel mean here? If we look at the world scene, we know judgment is near.....so, are there any proposals that involve division of the Land that corroborate our observation of other events that indicate judgment is near? I think so....there is a prime proposal about to come out that specifically addresses a permanent solution by dividing the heartland of the Land of Promise....therefore, from a timeline perspective this proposal fits perfectly with other end times observations.
Ezekiel 35-39 is a progression......Ezekiel 35 and 36 specifically address division of the Land, giving it to Edom in spite of the promises to Jacob....Ezekiel 37 addresses this further with God's solution, then Ezekiel 38 and 39 hit home to complete the story, at the end of which Israel is occupying the Land, and Messiah rules......I believe what we are seeing in the world matches the descriptions of Ezekiel 35, 36 and 37, which precede Ezekiel 38 and 39.....
Shalom!
Sam
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Post by mike on Mar 12, 2019 11:20:42 GMT -6
reading a few ago days I came across:
1Kings 9:4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, [and] wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
6 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: 7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: 8 And at this house, [which] is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? 9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.
So why do we watch the land as if it were something that was promised to the Jew forever? My first posts shows that the Lord would give it forever, but then He makes it conditional with Solomon. As far as I know his children really jacked up following the Lord BIG TIME.
Does this conditional statement to Solomon nullify the promise and should it cause us to view the dispute over land differently today?
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Post by Natalie on Mar 12, 2019 11:23:40 GMT -6
But there are verses about Him bringing them back to the land. In Ezekiel for example.
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Post by mike on Mar 12, 2019 11:31:00 GMT -6
But there are verses about Him bringing them back to the land. In Ezekiel for example. Natalie, It seemingly says to me that this is a pattern that repeats itself. There are several BIG IF's in there! I am wondering if the IF happens each time the Israelites fall away. Like you are saying He brought them back. When? After they turned from their wicked ways. Currently and for the last 2000 yrs, they have not followed Him and turned from wickedness. Not making a statement of belief here, looking to dialogue I didn copy all of the text, here it is in 1 Chronicles too 1Chr 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice. 13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer [that is made] in this place. 16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. 17 And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments; 18 Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man [to be] ruler in Israel.
19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; 20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it [to be] a proverb and a byword among all nations. 21 And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house? 22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 12, 2019 11:50:24 GMT -6
I agree. He gave them choices. Follow and be blessed or turn away and loose the blessings... including living on His land. But also promises to heal and restore when they return.
I think the ultimate complete permanent regathering is when they finally accept Jesus as Messiah. Then God will fulfill all His promises and they will get a new heart and always follow Him. (Jeremiah 32:36-41 for example)
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