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Post by stormyknight on May 15, 2018 8:51:59 GMT -6
This question was put forth in a sub of Reddit called 'Original Christianity' and I wondered what some here thought about it. What day did Messiah rise from the dead? I've always been of the mind that Wednesday of that week was the Passover, Jesus and His disciples having celebrated the evening before. Also tying into Jesus dying on the cross on Wednesday as Dan. 9:27 "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease," The sacrifice and oblation was no longer necessary because He took it's place once and for all. But what caught my attention in the comments was a reference to the greek in Mark 16:2 "on the first day of the week". It was pointed out that that could mean the first of the seven Sabbaths counting to Pentecost. Using BibleHub and the interlinear on there, the greek reads "Kai lian proi te mia ton Sabbaton", translated as "and very early on the first day of the week". Could that be a mistranslation?(Jer.8:8) Could it mean 'very early on the first Sabbath'?. That kind of throws a kink in things as that would put the Resurrection early on Saturday and push the 'three days and three nights' back a day, unless Wednesday, the day He died, was counted as the first 'day'.
I know this is something that has been discussed at great lengths and I know it doesn't matter that much. What matters is that HE ROSE from the dead, conquered death for us all. All praise and gratitude to our Heavenly Father for that!!
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Post by witness1 on May 15, 2018 9:33:35 GMT -6
The argument for the Wednesday crucifixion is that Jesus was in the grave 3 nights: Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night; and 3 days: Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. He would have risen after dusk on Saturday evening but the women didn’t come to the tomb until early Sunday morning.
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Post by stormyknight on May 15, 2018 10:05:45 GMT -6
Right, that's how I've always known it to be, except as a kid growing up in the catholic church, that is.
if you think about it, if He rose at sundown on Saturday, that moment between days, is 'the twinkling of an eye', is it not?
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Post by venge on May 15, 2018 14:31:27 GMT -6
Not only does mark state it was the first day of the week, Sunday, but we can find writings of early church fathers stating they hold their assembly on the first day of the week as every Sunday they celebrated the resurrection in his honor. Example: Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 27
"The Ebionites cherished low and mean opinions of Christ. For they considered Him a plain and common man, and justified only by His advances in virtue, and that He was born of the Virgin Mary, by natural generation. With them the observance of the law was altogether necessary, as if they could not be saved, only by faith in Christ and a corresponding life. These, indeed, thought on the one hand that all of the epistles of the apostles ought to be rejected, calling him an apostate from the law, but on the other, only using the gospel according to the Hebrews, they esteem the others as of little value. They also observe the Sabbath and other discipline of the Jews, just like them, but on the other hand, they also celebrate the Lords days very much like us, in commemoration of His resurrection." about 315 AD
OR
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10
"Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which "every tongue" believed and "was brought together" to God." -about 110 AD, only 80 years after Christ
There are more, but I figured these 2 serve as showing the earliest Christians said Sunday was the day to hold dear as he rose on that day. Before anyone says Constantine did it, he did not change his own till 320-325 AD. Sunday worship existed right after Christ for his resurrection. The Lord's day being Sunday
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Post by witness1 on May 15, 2018 17:21:25 GMT -6
But He could have risen at dusk on Saturday which still would have been Sunday in the Jewish culture.
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Post by witness1 on May 15, 2018 17:25:02 GMT -6
venge, was it you who had the chart showing the moons and the days of the week of Passover in the 30s AD?
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Post by stormyknight on May 15, 2018 21:19:14 GMT -6
venge , Ignatius' epistle concerns me a bit. Does he mean that a Christian should not practice Judaism as a whole or just the parts that were added to what God taught them? Meaning the parts that Jesus, Himself, denounced the Pharisees about, "straining at a gnat and swallow a camel". They made Judaism into more that it was meant to be. But if the whole of Judaism is thrown out, how are we to know on what day Pentecost falls on. It's always on Sunday, yes, but only because it is the day after the seventh Sabbath from Passover. And then there is all the nations of the Earth coming up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles during the reign of Jesus Christ the King. "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."' Zech 8:23 Maybe it's just my opinion, but I think we should not turn our backs on Judaism. It does say that the early disciples gathered on some occasions on the first day of the week, but there is no explanation in scripture as to why, except for Pentecost. Anyway, this has sidetracked from what I was pointing out and that was the use of the word Sabbaton in Mark 16:2 and it being translated to 'the first day of the week'. Also, I would be careful, venge, as one can see in Ignatius' writings that the seed of apostasy was already being planted, which today can clearly be seen in the Papal government. "I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter 6. Vicarius Filii Dei is what was thought to be inscribed on the Pope's mitre. In actuality, the closest evidence to this is Pope Pius IX's tiara in 1871: IESV CHRISTI VICARIO INFALLIBILI ORBIS SVPREMO IN TERRA RECTORI REGVM ATQVE POPVLORVM PATRI which translates to: To The Infallible Vicar of Jesus Christ To the Supreme Governor of the World on Earth To the Father of Nations and Kings (from biblelight.net/claims.htm#1877 ) While this probably doesn't add up to 666 as the former phrase does, it does tend to make a person look sidelong at it and wonder. "Infallible"?? "Supreme Governor"?? I think that position is reserved for Jesus Christ Himself and no other. I'm sorry, but Catholicism has left a bad impression on me from my earliest childhood. I know it's not the people of catholicism, it's the leadership that, I think, is corrupt. well, enough ranting. May our Heavenly Father bless us with wisdom and forgive us our mistakes, I pray in Jesus' Holy and Righteous name.
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Post by witness1 on May 16, 2018 4:06:47 GMT -6
Interesting! I’ve never heard of or read anything by Ignatius. You’re right that it sounds like those seeds were planted early.
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Post by witness1 on May 16, 2018 4:19:16 GMT -6
I'm sorry stormyknight ... I just realized I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. You are saying the Greek sounds like they went very early on Saturday morning. Edit: I'm finally tracking with you now! You're saying that a Saturday resurrection would mess up the count of the 3 days and 3 nights unless Wednesday counts as day 1. I'm sorry I didn't read it correctly at first. I've been reading a few things on this (because the day of the crucifixion is very interesting to me), and it seems like both sides have good support for the way they translate "mia ton sabbaton". I can see justification to translate it "the first of the week" and also for "the first of the Sabbaths". I am beginning to understand 7th Day Adventists better from reading their side of this. What is your conclusion?
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Post by stormyknight on May 16, 2018 8:37:16 GMT -6
witness1, I went back and was trying to see if maybe the words prior to Sabbaton could have alternate translations, but to no avail. The greek word 'proi' seems to have one specific meaning, "early in the morning" or as Strongs also showed 'Used specifically of the fourth watch of the night, i. e. the time from 3 o'clock in the morning until 6, according to our reckoning'. So what ever day Mary Magdalene went to the tomb on, she went before the sun came up early in the morning. I am still of the mind that it most certainly was Sunday morning, or rather very late Sunday evening to their reckoning (evening then morning = one day), because this then fulfills the count of three days and three nights. Jesus had already risen when she arrived before sunrise. This, itself, in my mind, negates all those Sunrise Services that so many contemporary Christian congregations celebrate on Easter Sunday. To me this would warrant a visit from the Heavenly Father's messengers with a message of "He is not here: for he is risen, as he said" Matt 28:6
So, anyway, I am convinced that Jesus had risen at sundown on Saturday. I hope we find out the truth, if it actually matters that much, very soon. What matters is that He is risen.
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Post by venge on May 16, 2018 12:47:23 GMT -6
venge , was it you who had the chart showing the moons and the days of the week of Passover in the 30s AD? Yes. It wont copy over from my format.
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Post by venge on May 16, 2018 12:56:08 GMT -6
venge , Ignatius' epistle concerns me a bit. Does he mean that a Christian should not practice Judaism as a whole or just the parts that were added to what God taught them? Meaning the parts that Jesus, Himself, denounced the Pharisees about, "straining at a gnat and swallow a camel". They made Judaism into more that it was meant to be. But if the whole of Judaism is thrown out, how are we to know on what day Pentecost falls on. It's always on Sunday, yes, but only because it is the day after the seventh Sabbath from Passover. And then there is all the nations of the Earth coming up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles during the reign of Jesus Christ the King. "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."' Zech 8:23 Maybe it's just my opinion, but I think we should not turn our backs on Judaism. It does say that the early disciples gathered on some occasions on the first day of the week, but there is no explanation in scripture as to why, except for Pentecost. Anyway, this has sidetracked from what I was pointing out and that was the use of the word Sabbaton in Mark 16:2 and it being translated to 'the first day of the week'. Also, I would be careful, venge, as one can see in Ignatius' writings that the seed of apostasy was already being planted, which today can clearly be seen in the Papal government. "I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter 6. Vicarius Filii Dei is what was thought to be inscribed on the Pope's mitre. In actuality, the closest evidence to this is Pope Pius IX's tiara in 1871: IESV CHRISTI VICARIO INFALLIBILI ORBIS SVPREMO IN TERRA RECTORI REGVM ATQVE POPVLORVM PATRI which translates to: To The Infallible Vicar of Jesus Christ To the Supreme Governor of the World on Earth To the Father of Nations and Kings (from biblelight.net/claims.htm#1877 ) While this probably doesn't add up to 666 as the former phrase does, it does tend to make a person look sidelong at it and wonder. "Infallible"?? "Supreme Governor"?? I think that position is reserved for Jesus Christ Himself and no other. I'm sorry, but Catholicism has left a bad impression on me from my earliest childhood. I know it's not the people of catholicism, it's the leadership that, I think, is corrupt. well, enough ranting. May our Heavenly Father bless us with wisdom and forgive us our mistakes, I pray in Jesus' Holy and Righteous name. I would caution you with Judaism. Judaism is not for us as we are Christians. Did not Paul..think it was Paul...who said that you cannot pour new wine into an old bottle but to pour new wine into the new bottle. And old wine you cannot pour into a new bottle. Understand the history and the OT is one thing, practicing is another. Many things were a shadow of things to come. Paul is clear on many things. Eusebius also said: Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, Chapter 23 On a side note, I agree Catholicism has problems. I believe it is the Church of revelation that suffers that women Jezebel. It sleeps with the Harlot and welcomes her into his bed. Mixing religions. Welcoming another instead of Christ.
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Post by witness1 on May 16, 2018 13:16:25 GMT -6
I have never studied the word 'proi'... interesting that it means the fourth watch of the night.
I have been wondering whether the 2 Witnesses in Revelation being dead for 3.5 days is in any way a mirror of Jesus... ie, was Jesus also dead for 3.5 days? If He was, that would put His resurrection at 3am on Sunday morning, which fits that the women went sometime between 3-6 am and found Him risen.
It is true that the most important thing is that He is risen! But it is seeming more and more that a Friday crucifixion doesn't make sense.
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Post by witness1 on May 16, 2018 13:43:01 GMT -6
venge , Ignatius' epistle concerns me a bit. Does he mean that a Christian should not practice Judaism as a whole or just the parts that were added to what God taught them? Meaning the parts that Jesus, Himself, denounced the Pharisees about, "straining at a gnat and swallow a camel". They made Judaism into more that it was meant to be. But if the whole of Judaism is thrown out, how are we to know on what day Pentecost falls on. It's always on Sunday, yes, but only because it is the day after the seventh Sabbath from Passover. And then there is all the nations of the Earth coming up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles during the reign of Jesus Christ the King. "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."' Zech 8:23 Maybe it's just my opinion, but I think we should not turn our backs on Judaism. It does say that the early disciples gathered on some occasions on the first day of the week, but there is no explanation in scripture as to why, except for Pentecost. Anyway, this has sidetracked from what I was pointing out and that was the use of the word Sabbaton in Mark 16:2 and it being translated to 'the first day of the week'. Also, I would be careful, venge, as one can see in Ignatius' writings that the seed of apostasy was already being planted, which today can clearly be seen in the Papal government. "I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter 6. Vicarius Filii Dei is what was thought to be inscribed on the Pope's mitre. In actuality, the closest evidence to this is Pope Pius IX's tiara in 1871: IESV CHRISTI VICARIO INFALLIBILI ORBIS SVPREMO IN TERRA RECTORI REGVM ATQVE POPVLORVM PATRI which translates to: To The Infallible Vicar of Jesus Christ To the Supreme Governor of the World on Earth To the Father of Nations and Kings (from biblelight.net/claims.htm#1877 ) While this probably doesn't add up to 666 as the former phrase does, it does tend to make a person look sidelong at it and wonder. "Infallible"?? "Supreme Governor"?? I think that position is reserved for Jesus Christ Himself and no other. I'm sorry, but Catholicism has left a bad impression on me from my earliest childhood. I know it's not the people of catholicism, it's the leadership that, I think, is corrupt. well, enough ranting. May our Heavenly Father bless us with wisdom and forgive us our mistakes, I pray in Jesus' Holy and Righteous name. I would caution you with Judaism. Judaism is not for us as we are Christians. Did not Paul..think it was Paul...who said that you cannot pour new wine into an old bottle but to pour new wine into the new bottle. And old wine you cannot pour into a new bottle. Understand the history and the OT is one thing, practicing is another. Many things were a shadow of things to come. Paul is clear on many things. Eusebius also said: Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, Chapter 23 On a side note, I agree Catholicism has problems. I believe it is the Church of revelation that suffers that women Jezebel. It sleeps with the Harlot and welcomes her into his bed. Mixing religions. Welcoming another instead of Christ. This is an interesting idea. Can we push this a bit? I feel it would be helpful to define "the church of Thyatira" and "Jezebel". What exactly is "the harlot"? What exactly do we mean by "Catholicism"? Are we talking about the true believers within Catholicism or the overarching doctrines that are at the core of the church (comprised of the popes and archbishops)? I see 2 options here: 1) Catholicism (as defined by the overarching false doctrines/pope/archbishops) is the church of Thyatira. Jezebel is the harlot. If this is the case, what exactly is "Jezebel"? 2) The true followers of Jesus within the RCC is the church of Thyatira. Then the teaching of Catholicism (overarching false doctrines/pope/archbishops) and Jezebel are one in the same- the harlot. I hope this makes sense. My main question is... who comprises "the church of Thyatira"? True believers within the Catholic church? Or the pope and the archbishops and the whole system? Secondarily, exactly how is Jezebel defined?
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Post by witness1 on May 16, 2018 14:17:58 GMT -6
PS... stormyknight, I didn't know anyone else here viewed Daniel 9:27 like I do. I feel like I have a little spring in my step today
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