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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 16:20:10 GMT -6
Hey guys
So recently I have been traveling for the past few months. And on my travels I have had the pleasure of meeting a good amount of really wonderful people.
And really over the course of my entire life I've had the pleasure of getting to spend time with some great people - many believers in Christ, many not.
Sometimes situations in my travels have afforded the fortunate circumstance where I can share the gospel with people I meet. Often times interactions are so brief and in passing that I do not.
One thing has been bugging me pretty much my whole life though, and for better or for worse, it has affected how I've interacted with a lot of people - and perhaps this is a fault in my spirit somewhere.
What bugs me is that sometimes I'm really struck by the beautiful personality certain people have. And a lot of the time it's by "unbelievers". I'll have great encounters and experiences with "unbelievers". But then I think - oh, but they don't believe in Christ. And then I ponder the unfortunate implications of their lack of faith, according to the bible...
So I'm sitting here, thinking that time is really running out for the normal course of the world, and I feel strongly for certain individuals that have crossed my path of life but do not know Christ.
My question is - can anyone relate? And if you can, what do you do to cope with the disconnect between yourself and people who have little to no faith in Jesus?
It perplexes me because I have had really good experiences with a lot of people who most likely do not have faith in Jesus Christ. And I'm thinking - I don't want this to be it for them. If we really believe the bible, and the eternal consequences of the sheep, those redeemed in Christ, and the goats, those who do not know Christ...I mean that is so dang sad if you think about it - for the "goats", I mean. I've had lots of good memories with people over the course of my life who do not believe.
And in my current travels I've met a lot of people that are awesome people. And they love life and love people. I just don't know if they love Christ, per se, but I can tell that there is a rich and good love in them.
For example, I'm in Jordan right now. And I've met many Muslims. Now, don't get me wrong here, Jesus Christ is unequivocally THE way, THE truth, and THE life. But I look into the eyes of some kind people here who happen to be Muslim, and I see the humanity in them. I see a real good part of them.
It just saddens my heart to think about so much wonderful humanity not being saved. Like the implications are absolutely heart-breaking if you think about it. We're talking about eternity here, whatever that actually is like.
Am I missing something here? Do you have similar thoughts and feelings about certain family members or friends that you know and love, but just seem to not be able to have faith in Christ? What do we do in this situation? What can we do?
I know we trust the Lord in all things, but the implications when reality hits and the tribulation starts and many well-meaning people are left here...I don't know, I'm just really feeling for them right now. Like how awful. And whenever the Lord "separates the sheep from the goats". Like how awful for the "goats" and the implication of eternity. I've seen and experienced really good sides of humanity with "goats".
I know Jesus knows what he is doing, but can anyone help me make sense of these unfortunate implications in scripture?
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Post by fitz on Feb 20, 2018 20:22:42 GMT -6
These things are tough to ponder. Truly a great mystery, but I think we just trust God and pray for these people. Sometimes we share the Gospel, sometimes we don't. Sometimes we plant a seed. Sometimes we water a seed someone else planted, then someone else reaps the harvest. You can't beat yourself up over it because you just don't know what God is doing to draw that person and how, or even IF He will ultimately save that person. God works in His own time and He is sovereign. But we know for sure that He wishes all would come to Him through faith in Jesus.
I pray daily for certain people God has brought into my life that I know are not believers. Most of them know that I am a Christian. I've shared Christ with some, some I have not, for a variety of reasons.
I always try to plant seeds at the minimum and work "God" or "Jesus" into the conversations I have with them. Something to make them think. Something to peak their curiosity so that maybe they will look into who Jesus is, or even ask me to explain more.
We need to be sensitive to how the Holy Spirit is leading us, but ultimately, I believe He is the one that draws a person to Christ, not us, though He very well may use us to point to Jesus, and it isn't always a head on Gospel presentation. God's timing is perfect and we will probably be quite to surprised to see many in Heaven that we didn't expect to see there. How much more will we be surprised to find out the little seed we may have planted was a key to that persons salvation?
I didn't really answer your questions, but it's the best I could come up with. I ponder the same things.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 20, 2018 21:33:30 GMT -6
You have worded my thoughts and feelings over the last 6 months so beautifully @pillarofsaultgoodman. One of my dearest friends just can't believe in Jesus... she has a hard time believing that her eternal security is based on the belief that some guy came back to life. And in a way I get it... "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18" And this friend is an AMAZING person. A wonderful mom, a kind and loving wife, a considerate and thoughtful friend. Head of the PTA at her daughter's school, filling back packs with food for kids who need it on the weekend. Studying to become a special needs teacher in the public school. I mean really...
So I get it. And wow it sounds like you have really met some incredible people and have seen so many facets of the image of God in different cultures. This is so, so hard to understand. I think for a long time back in September/October I was accusing God of not being good. Not out loud of course... but questioning in my heart. I mean, I understand the judgment that is coming for some folks. But like you say, there are so many wonderful people out there, and it is so painful to imagine my friend and others like her facing famine and disease.
So then I go back to the book of Job, where Job begins questioning God and God lays down the law: "Where were YOU, JOB, when I created the world? Where were YOU, JOB, when I put the stars in their place? Where were YOU, JOB..." You get the idea. God makes it clear that His ways are so much higher than ours and also that He is infinitely loving, kind, and abounding in mercy. And then I'm reminded of the trials in my own life, where God really got ahold of me and showed me how desperately I needed a savior. And how I thank Him for those times, even though they weren't pleasant, because they brought me to Him. I can say with Paul, "Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ. Phil 3:8"
So then I trust and pray that He will do the same for my friend. I pray He will be as good to her as He was to me... by sending trials and then saving her through them. And when I start to doubt His goodness, I ask forgiveness and pray He will help me to see Him for the loving and good and just God that He is. And I try to remember that, as awesome as my friend is, her works sadly are filthy rags, just like mine are. Her toothpick bridge across the Grand Canyon may be a little longer than mine, but it's still not enough to cross the chasm to God. And all of this is something I have to keep doing over and over, because it's still hard to understand.
Lastly, this line of questioning causes me to cry out like Daniel did in chapter 9 when he is interceding for his people... confessing his sins and theirs. When I look at these amazing people who don't know Christ, I realize that it is only by His grace that I do know Him. I am no better than these people... I only believe because He gave me belief. "But for the grace of God go I". So I confess that all I have is because of His goodness toward me. I confess my sin, I confess the sins of my friend which are the same as mine, and I confess that I need Him to work to bring salvation. Like Daniel, I can identify with the sin of the people and realize that I deserve the wrath that is coming just like they do... which then leads to praise that Jesus bore that for me. Truly, it's a long, exhausting cycle!
Thank you for bringing this topic up... it was at the forefront of my mind for a very long time, and I think it's good to talk about. I will be praying for you as you continue wrestling with these things.
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Post by gkp on Feb 20, 2018 22:08:09 GMT -6
@pillarofsaultgoodman Thanks for posting from your heart. I know a lot of Christians who have agonized with the same concerns. So, without trying to prove anything or even back it up with a lots of verses, let me share from my heart just as if I were talking with you face to face. I have thought a lot about the sheep and the goats story. Here is my personal take on it. I believe that when Jesus returns with His saints to judge the earth and restore it, the first thing He does is destroy the hardcore wicked rebellious ones who have gathered up against Him.Then with the outwardly rebellious gone He gathers the rest of humanity to Himself. He then separates the sheep and the goats. The sheep are welcomed to enter into the kingdom prepared for them while the goats are sent to destruction. How is this determined? By their works-not faith. But this is after the age of salvation thru faith by grace has ended. And this is not a permanent thing for the sheep. They are allowed to live on probation because they have a track record of showing some mercy, some compassion, some kindness. Based on this evidence they are allowed to live during the millennium kingdom. The goats are those who have no track record of having shown others kindness or mercy. The interesting thing is that not all the sheep will benefit from this kindness from Christ. After having lived during the thousand years of peace and goodness, they ultimately join with Satan in the final rebellion against the rule of Jesus. All through the millennium they have stifled or suppressed their rebellion. So what could have been the best time in their lives became a living hell. There was nothing to complain about! And there were no excuses left for rebellion. Their hatred for Christ is not based on what He does - it stems from the simple reality that He is lord and they are not. So this is why Satan goes to the ends of the earth to gather this mob of latently rebellious ones in one last attempt at overthrowing the King. They were living at the ends of the earth to be as far away from Christ as possible. So, when the secrets of their hearts are revealed at this last revolt, fire from God falls from heaven and consumes them.
I have another idea too that I cannot begin to prove from any verse of Scripture but I feel it is plausible and worth sharing. What if, after the sheep are separated and enter into the kingdom, Jesus gathers His leadership team and in their presence, writes on a scroll. They all witness what He is writing but no one sees the words. Then He rolls it up and seals it and puts it in a secure place. Then after the thousand years and the last rebellion and the exposed wicked sheep are destroyed, Jesus calls the leaders and all the people together and opens the scroll. And on it are found written the names of every one who ultimately rebelled with Satan. This will prove once and for all that Jesus is the rightful judge and the only one qualified to judge all the dead at the great white throne judgment to come. He proves He knew the end from the beginning and who would love Him and who would betray Him. No one then will be able to doubt His fairness, mercy, and justice. Again, this is just an idea for you to consider. For me it is a way to legally and clearly close out the sin problem and usher in the new heaven and earth.
I believe these thoughts might help you to see that even as you care for people who don't know Jesus as their saviour, so does He. Only He knows what is in their hearts and only He can ultimately sort out those who will be happy to share eternity with Him and His family. Only He knows how to break through the barriers of hurt, bitterness, blindness, and confusion and bring everyone who wants to live with Him to that safe place.
There is so much more that I could share here but I am not a teacher or scholar. I am like you and I care about people too. Hope this helps.
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Post by mike on Feb 21, 2018 7:07:03 GMT -6
Love the idea of this thread and content of the responses already! Folks this is what it is all about, knowing Him and doing so before it may be too late. There is no secret formula or recipe to helping people recognize their lack and need for a Savior. We too need Him daily (I sure know I do!)
I often have similar thoughts @pillarofsaultgoodman "I shouldve said this when so and so did that"..."I couldve said that when this happened" Always a Monday morning QB, yet as Fitz quotes "one plants, one waters another reaps". We have no idea what God is doing in the grand scheme, we each play a very minor role in that design, yet each piece is a critical component to the picture.
The one thing I would add to this PSG is a brief story an acquaintance of mine told me about a series of dreams/visions the Lord showed him. Now...when I speak to/with this person I would never...ever...ever say "this guy follows Christ". Just the language that comes from his mouth and anger towards people would be witness enough for me to never think he was a christian, but I digress. In conversation I mentioned something to him about what happens when we die and how so many people are in danger of hell's fire and he shared the dreams/visions with me. He says God showed him the sand of the beaches and the stars of the sky and asked "you know thats all mine?" and he said "of course". He says the Lord said "just like those are all mine so are people". and he said "yes of course". "Do you really think that I'm going to let the devil have more people than I have?"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 2:50:07 GMT -6
fitzI definitely need to be more mindful of how it is all in Christ's hands. Part of me freaks out a little and is like "But what if I had said this here? Or done this better here?", but I know deep down that that is just no good anxiety. Thankfully we serve the Lord who has amazing timing and awesome surprises in store! No worries, I'm kind of just thinking out loud here
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 3:27:57 GMT -6
witness1Good, I'm so glad! I think I do this too. Like you said, not outright, but somewhere in the back of my mind on occasion. I feel for you and the situation with your friend... This is definitely a favorite passage of mine in the bible. I love the dialogue especially toward the end of the book and then I love how real it is in pretty much everyone's heart. So often we all can be like "Yeah, this is my conclusion on things and I got it right and I understand it and that's final!" And then the Lord is like "Hold my beer, I need to remind this guy the reality of the situation...". It's so awesome, and then after the whole fiasco, the Lord doubles everything Job had lost and gives him a great family....God is so cool This is what is tough for me to swallow sometimes, because the truth is He is better to some people than to others (or am I wrong here?)...or He acts in differing degrees and in different ways in different lives. And then I think how I am entitled to nothing, but am given so much by Him, and...I don't know, I just get overwhelmed easily I think, because I feel like with what we know (Jesus Christ is Lord), with that knowledge, comes a lot of responsibility ya know? (Or maybe I wrongly assume it does, because He does tell us our burden is light and it is to simply love...) And I get thinking, I want everyone to know how amazing God is...but everyone doesn't right now and so I get down about that...probably just me being impatient! I love that analogy. Sometimes in a moment, I realize a fraction of the awesomeness of God, and then I really want to "be good" or "do good things" for Him, not for personal brownie points, but because He just sets such an awe-inspiring example. And then I am reminded of the truth you mentioned, how anything I do is like filthy rags to Him. I too have to keep being reminded of this. Haha I can so relate to this cycle. We are surely blessed to go through it! I think I get caught up in not knowing the Lord's reasoning behind His work in all the lives around me, and I get worried for all these wonderful people. Do you think that worry is from the Lord? Or He calls us to not be anxious for the future, right? You put it well - so often it feels like a long, exhausting cycle! No problem! I'm thankful to have this discussion board where there are so many cool personalities that all love Jesus! Yeah, it has always been a topic that has rolled around in my head. Praying for you for peace and clarity with all this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 4:38:38 GMT -6
gkp to talking face to face and from the heart to agony... This happens right after the tribulation, right? And I'm open to this...but based on what I remember, there seems to be two camps of people 1. People redeemed by the blood of Christ 2. People who are not
Is not even a minor breaking of the commandments of the Lord enough to be seen as wickedness and rebellion in the sight of the Lord?
True, I guess this could be the case, as Jesus does say it is those who fed Him, gave Him drink, took Him in, clothed Him, and visited Him in prison who know Him.
Okay, I've always been confused about this a bit. Who gets to live during the millennium kingdom? Do we? Or is it strictly people who died during the Great Tribulation?
Are you saying that all of the "sheep" are to rebel later? Or just some?
That would be a cool sign for everyone to see! I'm confused how someone who trusts in Jesus would not believe in His omniscience though?
Thank you for saying this. I needed to hear these words. I need to be reminded of His prevailing power, despite this mad world, and of course His care for His people outweighs my own by a billion million trillion times infinity... It does help! SHARE MORE PLEASE! What's another favorite theory of yours?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 4:55:23 GMT -6
mikeAmen, there is no denying that! Very true. The insecurity in me likes to wail and scream on occasion from my minor component in the picture and say things like "God, you sure you got all this? There's a lot at stake for a lot of people! There's a lot of complex and beautiful components running around all over the place and I'm not sure where they all end up. You've got them covered, right? RIGHT?!" Then I'm brought back to reality and remember it really is all in His hands. But it's still hard of course, because we don't know so much. But then again He wants our trust, and learning to trust in Him is key... OH MY GOODNESS THAT IS AWESOME. I just got goosebumps... I wonder how close to the "beginning" of creation we are? Or the start of the grand story God is telling? I mean the new heaven and the new earth...lots of days ahead!
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Post by gkp on Feb 22, 2018 12:35:03 GMT -6
@pillarofsaultgoodman Thank you, my friend for taking the time to answer each of us so respectfully and thoughtfully. Thank you for examining my thoughts and for your questions about my words. I am not good at organizing my posts as you and others have so I might ramble a bit. But here are some clarifications you might appreciate.
One thing that seems to be a bit overlooked by many is the reason for the Millenial kingdom. The tendency is to try to pin down when, where, who etc. But why does it have to be at all? The surface answer is so that God can fulfill the promises He made to Abraham and David and others as well. But there has to be more. Looking at the "why" sheds a lot of light on the goodness of God. You have expressed honest and heartfelt concern for others. You have met so many wonderful people. But there are so many more. There are little children struggling to survive the physical abuse of drug controlled parents. Or the beatings from an alcoholic father, or tragic accidents that can rob a person of every bit of stability they have ever had. There are people in Africa who live every day in terror . Add to that the suffering of people in North Korea. You know all this already. These people are wounded and scarred and who can blame them if they harbor anger and bitterness in their hearts toward a God that they know must exist but seems to not care. People can have so many reasons to reject the gospel and often these are valid reasons. We as ambassadors for Christ can help some but there are many we never will reach. Maybe as close as the person next door. When we know that this age is closing how can things be black or white? How can a loving God send people to destruction who have been victims of the culture or families they were born into? This is why the millenium kingdom has to be. It is a place for those who lifted heartfelt aching questions up to God and found no answers. In Matthew 24:34 Jesus says:
"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.' "
Notice Jesus says MY Father - not YOUR Father. These are not saved people but rather those who have demonstrated some mercy. "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." And this kingdom is not heaven; it is the millennial kingdom. During this time all the wounds will be healed, all the questions can be answered, and all the pain will be lifted. Think about a person who has suffered a lifetime of abuse. How comforting to go to Jesus Himself, or Mary, or Elizabeth, or Jeremiah and get the answers that cannot be found now. Or even go to you, my friend, and thank you for praying for them and caring for them.
After a thousand years of opportunity to put away the past and embrace Life, the other shoe will drop. We will see that some people were truly masters of disguise and tried to blend in with the crowd of decent people. They may have done some acts of mercy back in the previous age, but perhaps it was actually just convenient or self serving. An anomaly in a life not really interested in the things of God. They have had their chance to face the truth and embrace it. They can turn to Christ as we all have, as sinners who will always need our savior. But many will embrace instead the siren call of the devil and finally expose the deepest darkest secret they have. They will see God as a tyrant and will try to shake off the shackles of bondage.
Boy, I am getting long winded here. Better stop for now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 1:02:16 GMT -6
gkpWhat a bewildering reality we share! The stakes are high. God bless you.
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