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Post by yardstick on Jul 31, 2017 17:31:47 GMT -6
It is a fact that John uses the Greek word for "out of" - EK interchangeably with the Greek word for "away from"- Apo. John does not always write in the classical and correct form of the Greek. Someone on another thread I visit studied Greek and verified this. Therefore it is not clear which meaning he is implicating here, since he uses the word to mean both things. Wouldn't John's use of the neuter form for 'son' used in Rev 12:5 indicate that he does always write in the classical and correct form of Greek; and that where an anomaly such as you are describing exists, indicates there is something else going on? It occurs to me to also point out that it is the Holy Spirit writing through John that might make John use the specific words he uses? |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 31, 2017 18:13:07 GMT -6
So let me begin first by just laying out the way I see the timeline then I will show through scripture why I believe this to be true: Seals 1-4- have already been opened- the four horses. Seal 5- represents the resurrection of the dead in Christ (seal 5 and 6 happen in very close succession and are imminent) Seal 6- represents the rapture of the church, the start of the sealing of the 144,000 Seal 7- silence in heaven for "about a half hour"-represents the start of the 70th week and the first 3.5 years, the two witnesses begin their ministry, *false prophet and antichrist enter onto the prophetic world stage, begin to establish new mark of beast system. Trumpet 1- 1/3 of earth/trees burned up, all grass burned (hail and fire mixed with blood thrown to earth) Trumpet 2- 1/3 of sea turned to blood, 1/3 sea creatures killed, 1/3 ships destroyed (great burning mountain falls to earth)Trumpet 3- 1/3 fresh waters poisoned, many die. (great burning star falls to earth)Trumpet 4- 1/3 sun/moon/stars struck, 1/3 day and night darkened (these trumpets I believe will sound also very close together, and would come just before the midpoint of the 70th week, also the sealing of the 144,000 will be completed before these trumpeters sound) Trumpet 5- the first woe- bottomless pit opened, stinging locusts torment men for five months Trumpet 6- the second woe- four angels released to kill 1/3 of mankind with fire ( I believe that those who are killed may be the tribulation martyrs) *The seven thunders- this IMO represents the end of God's work among the gentiles and the start of His plan to redeem IsraelTrumpet 7- the third woe- The devil thrown down to earth, The Antichrist kills the two witnesses, commits the abomination of desolation, and unleashes his wrath toward the children of the "woman" Bowl 1- malignant sores on those who bear the mark of the beast Bowl 2- all water of the sea turned to blood, every living thing in it dies. Bowl 3- all fresh water becomes like blood Bowl 4- suns heat intensified to scorch men Bowl 5- kingdom of the "beast" darkened with a darkness that causes pain Bowl 6- Euphrates river dried up to make way for kings from the east ( Battle of Armageddon ) Bowl 7- "it is done" Babylon destroyed, huge hailstones, greatest earthquake...etc.. Return of Christ That is it. I will add explanation as time permits me. That would be 14 judgments wouldn't it?, which approximately fits with the number of times the comet's retrograde starts up in the data collected in this thread: unsealed.boards.net/thread/496/conception-comet-deux-2017Incidentally, that would indicate that whenever there is a stop in the retrograde, the next judgment is being prepared... Those points are generally in plain font (excepting June 19, 2018 - it may be that the 14 judgments could start on June 19?) Isn't Jun 19 2018, 9 months after September 23, 2017? See the Orion research comment about Jun 19, 2018 - "holy ka-shmoley") - unsealed.boards.net/thread/463/conception-comet-2017?page=4And, after threading through the explanations on this thread, if the seal 'judgments' are already occurring, then it might make sense that the 6th seal would be the harpazo and the 7th would be the assignment of the trumpets to the angels who blow them; as well as a half-hour (15 days + 5 hours) silence. Your model allows for a variable amount of time between each of the judgments. It appears that most trib exegesis presumes an evenly distributed time period between each judgement. The model you explain does not appear to make that assumption. Interestingly, since the model you propose suggests that the harpazo will occur at the 6th seal, would that not make it a mid-trib viewpoint? Also, is there any part of the Scriptures explicitly ties the 1260 and 1290 days to the 3 sets of judgments? Or have we just inferred it? |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 31, 2017 20:12:35 GMT -6
Putting the harpazo at the 6th seal does not have to mean it is a mid-trib. RT, if I understand correctly, believes that 7 whole years of tribulation occur after the 6th seal. That certainly seems workable to me.
As for tying the 1260 and 1290 days to the specific judgments, no, I don't think we particularly have it. And if rt is right, then the 4 horsemen are not strictly judgments per se. The passage does not seem to call them that, either.
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Post by yardstick on Jul 31, 2017 21:46:50 GMT -6
Putting the harpazo at the 6th seal does not have to mean it is a mid-trib. RT, if I understand correctly, believes that 7 whole years of tribulation occur after the 6th seal. That certainly seems workable to me. As for tying the 1260 and 1290 days to the specific judgments, no, I don't think we particularly have it. And if rt is right, then the 4 horsemen are not strictly judgments per se. The passage does not seem to call them that, either. That's what I noticed. |
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Post by rt on Jul 31, 2017 22:07:09 GMT -6
Putting the harpazo at the 6th seal does not have to mean it is a mid-trib. RT, if I understand correctly, believes that 7 whole years of tribulation occur after the 6th seal. That certainly seems workable to me. As for tying the 1260 and 1290 days to the specific judgments, no, I don't think we particularly have it. And if rt is right, then the 4 horsemen are not strictly judgments per se. The passage does not seem to call them that, either. Yes watchmanjim, you seem to have grasped my thoughts pretty well. I know it is hard to wrap your head around it all especially when you have been building on an entirely different foundation of interpretation for years. Believe me, I did not come to this in one fell swoop, it was years of study and comparison and debate with others that led me to where I am, and by no means would I say I have a corner on it all. You all can be the judge of that. Revelation does not call the seals judgments, but their effects are called judgments in the Old Testament here: The judgment of God however is not relegated to the last seven years of Daniel's 70 weeks. Judgment occurs throughout scripture: the flood, against Egypt at the exodus, the invasion of Jerusalem by Babylon, the captivity of Israel, are just some of God's judgments that leap out in my mind, in fact the "severe judgments" that Ezekiel speaks of have happened more than once to the inhabitants of Jerusalem throughout its history. Judgment also comes in various forms, the seals and riders are one form, the flood was another, the trumpets and bowls will be even more severe and the ultimate judgment will come in the lake of fire. We are even told in 1 Corinthians that if we partake of the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner, we eat and drink judgment to ourselves. The passage tells us that many of those who do not judge themselves rightly end up weak, sick and even dead as a result. The passage also says that when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord. So there are also various reasons for judgment. Some judgment is considered discipline (believers) while some ends in condemnation (the world). I would guess that the four seal judgments would be more of a the discipline type of punishment,with the hope of bringing repentance while the trumpets and bowls are more of a condemnation type of punishment because of the lack of repentance. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 4:38:43 GMT -6
Agreed, agreed, agreed! Yes, RT, total agreement!!!!
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 9, 2017 22:26:19 GMT -6
By the time we get to Horseman Four (and Five) – we get the death of ¼ of the planet. There are over 7 Billion people on this world now – which means a 1/4 of 7 Billion – is just a tad over 1.5 Billion. To have Horseman Four roaming around – we should see the population diminish by 1.5 Billion in a short period of time…. That has not happen, not even during the last century during it’s endless wars. Hi kjs, I'm slowly reading through this thread and came to this post of yours on page 9. I don't know if there were any comments on it past page 9, but I had a sudden thought and decided to check it out. There have been almost 1.5 billion abortions worldwide since 1980 according to this site: www.numberofabortions.comI haven't looked into that website to verify if it's legit or how they determine their statistics, but just thought that might be something to consider. And supposedly that's only since 1980. I think you'd have to factor in infant mortality rate, normal birth and death rates and some other factors to get a true estimate of a percentage within the entire human population over the time period. We don't really know what period of time this fourth horseman (or any of them) are exerting their influences. 1.5 billion over 40 years is not the same as 1.5 billion in one year. Someone smarter than me with epidemiology and statistics would be better suited to work this out. Just a random thought I had! |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 10, 2017 0:14:58 GMT -6
I answer this in my post above. However I guess I can understand in a sense the idea that the effects of theses trumpets will certainly bring great tribulation upon those who suffer from them. I think their initial sounding happens before the midpoint, but their effects carry forth into the second half, which one could say is part of the great tribulation. So the fifth trumpet sounds and the pit is opened to release the locusts that sting men, bringing great pain for five months. This five months may carry over into the second half of the 70th week. The sixth trumpet sounds and the angels are released, these angels will gather an army who will go on to kill 1/3 of mankind. Again the effects will most certainly carry over into the second half of the week. The Seventh trumpet sounds and Satan is cast down to earth, the dragon goes after the children of the woman and the antichrist is given 42 months to act. Again the trumpet sounds before the second half of the week starts, but it's effects also carry over into the second half. So I guess I can agree with you that the woes are associated with events that happen during the second half of the 70th week. Why do you think the 5th trumpet sounds before the second half of the 70th week starts? To me, the locust judgment is going to be pretty terrible and horrifying. Rev 9:5-6. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. As someone who has experienced severe chronic pain to the point of praying God would just kill me (like the people who will experience this judgment), it's hard for me to imagine this scene that would possibly be taking place during the 5 months of the 5th trumpet: Rev 11:7-10. Now when they (the two witnesses) have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. (Parentheses and emphasis mine). I can't speak for others' experience of pain, but from my own, it was pretty much all I could think about or cared about—how to get rid of it, how to deal with it, or how to escape it. A pretty horrible place to be in your head. I just can't imagine being tortured with pain and caring one wit about the two witnesses or anything else for that matter. (And since the witnesses can kill people supernaturally, I'd think there'd be quite a few with locust stings trying to goad them into taking them out. So would they not be killed then?). This is just not really jiving with me. I haven't yet read the entirety of this thread to find out all of your theory about the Book of Revelation, but I'm still holding to the view that the Trumpet and Bowl judgments are completed at the same time (or rather a trumpet starts and then it's complimentary bowl finishes over an unspecified period of time) in the second half. Trumpet/Bowl 2-7 seem to directly compliment each other. 2nd Trumpet (1/3 sea to blood)/ 2nd Bowl (Sea to blood, total die off) 3rd Trumpet (1/3 Fresh water to wormwood)/ 3rd Bowl (all fresh water to blood) 4th Trumpet (Days are shortened to 16 hours)/ 4th Bowl (sun scorches men) 5th Trumpet (locust stings)/ 5th Bowl (pain and darkness) 6th Trumpet (Angelic Euphrates Mega army)/ 6th Bowl (Euphrates dries up) 7th Trumpet (Mystery of God finished)/ 7th Bowl ("It is done!") Thank you for sharing all your hard work! This has been very helpful for me too! |
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Post by kjs on Aug 10, 2017 7:32:36 GMT -6
By the time we get to Horseman Four (and Five) – we get the death of ¼ of the planet. There are over 7 Billion people on this world now – which means a 1/4 of 7 Billion – is just a tad over 1.5 Billion. To have Horseman Four roaming around – we should see the population diminish by 1.5 Billion in a short period of time…. That has not happen, not even during the last century during it’s endless wars. Hi kjs, I'm slowly reading through this thread and came to this post of yours on page 9. I don't know if there were any comments on it past page 9, but I had a sudden thought and decided to check it out. There have been almost 1.5 billion abortions worldwide since 1980 according to this site: www.numberofabortions.comI haven't looked into that website to verify if it's legit or how they determine their statistics, but just thought that might be something to consider. And supposedly that's only since 1980. I think you'd have to factor in infant mortality rate, normal birth and death rates and some other factors to get a true estimate of a percentage within the entire human population over the time period. We don't really know what period of time this fourth horseman (or any of them) are exerting their influences. 1.5 billion over 40 years is not the same as 1.5 billion in one year. Someone smarter than me with epidemiology and statistics would be better suited to work this out. Just a random thought I had! MissusMack08 -- I will grant that it is plausible that the total number (1.5 Billion) match up -- but that is a 37 year time span -- so as horrendous as the murder of babies is I do not think it applies here. While we are not given a specific time span here -- I read it as if the "killings" happen in less than a year -- maybe a couple months.... Remember how this particular section plays out -- First One had to be found worthy to open the Scroll -- that person happens to be the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) These are all world wide events (at least how I read it) Next the first Rider (1st Seal) -- goes out conquering (some say by diplomacy and that may be a possibility) -- but conquering implies someone is gaining Territory and someone is losing Territory Next Rider removes Peace from the Earth -- which may mean full out wars, or simply civil unrest -- like riots ... Next Rider is economic hardship so bad that someone needs to work a full day to supply one standard meal -- or four sub-standard meals Next two Riders -- bring on the killings and the following death of billions....... Also, please note there are FIVE Horsemen -- Not Four..... Anyway RT has a different take on this entire passage than I do -- so I decided to refrain from further comments on her thread -- since I have no wish to debate/ argue over something either of us could be correct on. But since I was specifically asked to weigh in on this comment -- I did so.... Later KJ |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 8:37:29 GMT -6
KJS, I just wanted to commend you this morning on your response. At times on these threads we see so little compassion in how we speak to and about our fellow brethren. I didn't expect anything less from you, yet it was refreshing and encouraging for me to see this morning.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 10, 2017 12:25:46 GMT -6
Thank you, KJS, for your response. I also don't think abortion is actually what is being represented by the 4th horseman (or horsemen). It was just a passing thought that seemed to have similar figures to make it something to ponder. If the horsemen are pre-trib events rather than 70th week events, I suspect the 4th one to represent ISIS style Islam, terrorism and the caliphate. During the trib, it could be a hybrid of that or another deluding belief system that becomes a massacring religion. (Because Hades follows Death, it seems to me to indicate a religious system.) Abortion is more a consequence of the ambivalent attitudes associated with relativism mixed with a healthy dose of self-centeredness, which is a world-wide but undefined belief system, not quite yet a "religion."
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Post by rt on Aug 10, 2017 21:33:53 GMT -6
I answer this in my post above. However I guess I can understand in a sense the idea that the effects of theses trumpets will certainly bring great tribulation upon those who suffer from them. I think their initial sounding happens before the midpoint, but their effects carry forth into the second half, which one could say is part of the great tribulation. So the fifth trumpet sounds and the pit is opened to release the locusts that sting men, bringing great pain for five months. This five months may carry over into the second half of the 70th week. The sixth trumpet sounds and the angels are released, these angels will gather an army who will go on to kill 1/3 of mankind. Again the effects will most certainly carry over into the second half of the week. The Seventh trumpet sounds and Satan is cast down to earth, the dragon goes after the children of the woman and the antichrist is given 42 months to act. Again the trumpet sounds before the second half of the week starts, but it's effects also carry over into the second half. So I guess I can agree with you that the woes are associated with events that happen during the second half of the 70th week. Why do you think the 5th trumpet sounds before the second half of the 70th week starts? To me, the locust judgment is going to be pretty terrible and horrifying. Rev 9:5-6. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. As someone who has experienced severe chronic pain to the point of praying God would just kill me (like the people who will experience this judgment), it's hard for me to imagine this scene that would possibly be taking place during the 5 months of the 5th trumpet: Rev 11:7-10. Now when they (the two witnesses) have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. (Parentheses and emphasis mine). I can't speak for others' experience of pain, but from my own, it was pretty much all I could think about or cared about—how to get rid of it, how to deal with it, or how to escape it. A pretty horrible place to be in your head. I just can't imagine being tortured with pain and caring one wit about the two witnesses or anything else for that matter. (And since the witnesses can kill people supernaturally, I'd think there'd be quite a few with locust stings trying to goad them into taking them out. So would they not be killed then?). This is just not really jiving with me. I haven't yet read the entirety of this thread to find out all of your theory about the Book of Revelation, but I'm still holding to the view that the Trumpet and Bowl judgments are completed at the same time (or rather a trumpet starts and then it's complimentary bowl finishes over an unspecified period of time) in the second half. Trumpet/Bowl 2-7 seem to directly compliment each other. 2nd Trumpet (1/3 sea to blood)/ 2nd Bowl (Sea to blood, total die off) 3rd Trumpet (1/3 Fresh water to wormwood)/ 3rd Bowl (all fresh water to blood) 4th Trumpet (Days are shortened to 16 hours)/ 4th Bowl (sun scorches men) 5th Trumpet (locust stings)/ 5th Bowl (pain and darkness) 6th Trumpet (Angelic Euphrates Mega army)/ 6th Bowl (Euphrates dries up) 7th Trumpet (Mystery of God finished)/ 7th Bowl ("It is done!") Thank you for sharing all your hard work! This has been very helpful for me too! First of all let me say that I can fully sympathize with you about dealing with chronic pain. In 2001 I caught a virus that left me with severe pain for a year and more afterward, I could not function normally, with 3 young kids and I could barley walk, it was very hard going for a bit, and I had residual daily pain and neurological issues for years afterward. Fortunately I did make a slow recovery, which I am very thankful for. So I really do understand what that is. With that said, I suspect, and this is just speculation on my part, but I think that the two witnesses might be blamed for the effects of the trumpets, which is why I think the people of earth will rejoice over their death, they do have the power to strike the earth with every plague as much as they desire: I say this with all due respect, I honestly cannot see how the trumpet and bowl judgments are completed simultaneously, how can 1/3 of the creatures of the sea die, and all of them die at the same time? Both things cannot be true, either 1/3 die or they all die. It cannot be 1/3 die and they also all die, that is illogical. The simple reading of the revelation is consecutive. Yes the effects are very similar, but not identical. Also the mystery of God being being finished is not necessarily the same event as the proclamation "It is Done" declares. The mystery of God is said to be finished when the seven thunders sound (An often overlooked portion of the revelation) This mystery is the completion of the fullness of the gentiles IMO, and it is completed just before the 7th trumpet sounds. If you would like me to I can support this with scripture. But I am short on time presently. Later in the Revelation after the Millennial kingdom, after the judgement and after the creation of the new heavens and earth we hear the words "it is done" again, now just because these words are used, does not mean that what is done here is the same thing that is done in chapter 16 does it? The question is what is "done" in chapter 16? We know what is finished in chapter 10, the Mystery of God is finished, but what is completed in chapter 16? The obvious is that the bowls are done being poured out. God has avenged the blood of the saints as he promised, remember in chapter 6 (the fifth seal) , the martyrs ask a question (underlined): They are told to rest until the number of their fellow servants would be completed,(the number of those who would be saved AKA the fullness of the gentiles), the implication is that when their number is completed and they would be killed, then God will avenge them, and what do we see happening with the pouring of the bowls?: God is in the midst of avenging the blood of the saints, and that IMO is what is "done" or completed with the pouring of the 7th bowl mixed with God's wrath. First their number has to be completed, that is what is finished just before the seventh trumpet sounds when all those who will be saved during the 70th week will be completed, then they will be killed, then their blood has to be avenged. There is an order here of things that has to happen, their blood cannot be avenged until they are killed, and they will not be killed until they become fellow servants and brethren to those fifth seal righteous martyrs who died for their testimony of Christ. In the end these are not deal breakers, we don't have to agree. Ultimately we will all find out in retrospect if any of us came close to getting it right, but then what will it even matter? To me it is a challenge, like trying to fit together the pieces of a puzzle, and I enjoy trying to figure it out, I find it interesting and exciting to do so. But in the end even though you and I think we have some of it figured out, some of our puzzle pieces may be out of place. Thank you for commenting, I would encourage you to read it through more thoroughly though, some of your questions might be better answered if you do. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 10, 2017 23:41:02 GMT -6
rt, it sounds to me as if you believe that the 1,000 year reign of Christ is the same as the eternal state, or eternal inheritance.
I see these as two distinctly different time periods. However, I would love to hear why you think they are the same.
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Post by rt on Aug 11, 2017 9:09:46 GMT -6
rt, it sounds to me as if you believe that the 1,000 year reign of Christ is the same as the eternal state, or eternal inheritance. I see these as two distinctly different time periods. However, I would love to hear why you think they are the same. Oh dear....no not at all, I misspoke by including the New heavens and earth within the 70th week. It should have been that those things are accomplished or completed in the fulfillment of the end times prophecies of the Revelation. I have removed that from the post to avoid confusion- thank you for catching that for me. I also see them as two distinct time periods. I see the believer's eternal inheritance sort of like this: - As we live out our faith on earth Christ has secured the promise of our eternal inheritance, we are living as heirs to that inheritance. Christ has made the reconciliation of all things possible and we live in light of that knowledge.
- During the millennial Kingdom, we will receive an advance on our inheritance, as we reign with Christ over the earth in our eternal glorified state, the physical/ spiritual reconciliation is underway as Christ now rules over the earth and Satan is no longer able to.
- But the full inheritance won't be realized until we inhabit the New heavens and earth, and the corruption of sin is no more and God dwells with man, when the reconciliation of all things is completed.
Hope this helps clarify |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 12, 2017 0:42:58 GMT -6
Ok, thanks, rt, I'm glad we cleared that up!  |
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