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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 19:54:50 GMT -6
Great thread and discussion, and for rt for presenting her thoughts and analysis! It appears to me that her view is a hybrid pre-trib/pre-wrath view......she believes the rapture is right after the 6th seal, the 24 elders do not represent the raptured church, and that believers will endure the 1st 6 seals....all of which are exactly the pre-wrath view. The main difference she presents is the timing of onset of the 70th week......pre-wrath would place it at the first seal, while rt places the onset at the 7th seal. The major elements are one and the same...it is a matter of defining when the 70th week begins, and we know from Daniel 9:27 that it begins with a covenant....the nature and character of which we believers will hopefully not be caught by surprise by!
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 5, 2017 20:44:10 GMT -6
Sam, my understanding is that a "pre-wrath" viewpoint is usually one that takes the church believers (us) through at least part of the 70th week. Some consider our rapture to be at mid-trib, others think maybe a year or so before the end, before the 7 bowl judgments which truly represent the concentrated wrath of God. The reason for this is, they consider the 7 trumpets to have to sound before the rapture, since the rapture will occur at the "last trump."
I considered this viewpoint, and while it is an interesting concept, I don't believe it is the case.
rt, I think, considers the seals not to be part of the Wrath period, and I am leaning toward agreeing with her on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 20:57:20 GMT -6
Yes, Jim I think your analysis is right on the mark! Those who are pre-wrath include the 1st 6 seals in the 70th week, while rt's view waits until the 7th seal to start the week...it is a matter of semantics really, since the practical result is the same, in other words, in both views believers go through the first 6 seals, and are raptured after the 6th seal....The main distinguishing event is when the 70th week starts.....it begins with a covenant.....
I would say that pre-wrath does not involve the trumpet judgments first.....the two best books that discuss the pre-wrath view of the order of events including the trumpets are:
Antichrist before the Day of Lord by Alan Kurschner
Revelation Deciphered by Nelson Walters
That said, I do not ascribe 100% with their views.....
I am committed to not debating the issue of pre-wrath or pre-trib, but do not mind framing the views for all to decide where they land, much like I strive to do in the videos. I point out where the views lie, but do not justify any one view over the other...that is for the individual to arrive at through their own diligent study!
Shalom!
Sam
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 5, 2017 21:02:34 GMT -6
Yes, that's a good way to put it, Sam. I think it's important to note that there seems to be no reference to the covenant of the beast in the book of Revelation--unless I missed it. Regarding its timing, especially. If I'm wrong about that, somebody please straighten me up. But if there is no reference to it in Revelation, that makes it hard to put that last sliding piece of the puzzle to rest.  |
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Post by rt on Jul 6, 2017 7:36:33 GMT -6
Sam, my understanding is that a "pre-wrath" viewpoint is usually one that takes the church believers (us) through at least part of the 70th week. Some consider our rapture to be at mid-trib, others think maybe a year or so before the end, before the 7 bowl judgments which truly represent the concentrated wrath of God. The reason for this is, they consider the 7 trumpets to have to sound before the rapture, since the rapture will occur at the "last trump." I considered this viewpoint, and while it is an interesting concept, I don't believe it is the case. rt, I think, considers the seals not to be part of the Wrath period, and I am leaning toward agreeing with her on that. You are both correct, I believe that the first four seals have already been removed, that Christ removed them when he was handed the scroll and took His seat on the throne after His resurrection. The removal of the 5th and 6th seals I believe is imminent, they represent IMO the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture and will likely occur very close together or even simultaneously. The 70th week IMO begins concurrent with the removal of the 7th seal. I have debated many times with pre wrath and mid trib folks. Among them there are varieties of views as to the timing of events, many see the seals being removed throughout the 70th week alongside the sounding of trumpets and pouring of bowls, while I believe that events happen just as they are laid out in the revelation, in consecutive order. Seals, followed by trumpets, followed by bowls, though I do see that the effects on the earth from these events may overlap. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 7:48:41 GMT -6
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 6, 2017 10:26:49 GMT -6
Interesting perspective. I don't think I ever saw anyone try to compress the trumpets and bowls all into a single year before.
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Post by socalexile on Jul 30, 2017 3:13:51 GMT -6
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 30, 2017 5:36:03 GMT -6
Interesting article! I wasn't into the end-time prophecies for many years until recently and I always beloved in pre-trib rapture, but the more I study the Scripture about this subject the more I see the resurrection/rapture happens after the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week. (BTW Jesus with OT saints went to the sky in the middle of the week). Also on January this year I had a word from the Lord that believers in Jesus will go up to the sky in 5 years like Noah did. Jesus said that it is going to be like in the days of Noah. The key to it is Lamech who died at the age of 777 and flood started 5 years after his death. The name Lamech in Hebrew means powerful, so the most powerful country is coming to its end this year which is 5777 in Hebrew and the rapture is in 5 years from that moment. p.s. I also had this thought back then that every seal will be opened in each year of Jacob's trouble. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 30, 2017 11:37:27 GMT -6
Well that's some good logic, Paul, though I'm not yet sure I can agree with you on every point. However, it is interesting that there is a binary star that scientists expect to collide and make a supernova that will be an extremely brilliant sight in the heavens, and this is due to happen about 5 years from now, or less.
By the way, I appreciate your perspective, whether I agree or not, and I appreciate all the thought you put into these studies. You clearly are thinking it through, and you may very well be right about some of the things you have brought up.
For myself, I'm still trying to sort it all out--my best understanding is still a rapture of the church this year. But many people have believed in the possibility of the rapture being at other points as well, and so I do enjoy thinking these things over and trying to figure it out.
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 30, 2017 22:10:06 GMT -6
Well that's some good logic, Paul, though I'm not yet sure I can agree with you on every point. However, it is interesting that there is a binary star that scientists expect to collide and make a supernova that will be an extremely brilliant sight in the heavens, and this is due to happen about 5 years from now, or less. By the way, I appreciate your perspective, whether I agree or not, and I appreciate all the thought you put into these studies. You clearly are thinking it through, and you may very well be right about some of the things you have brought up. For myself, I'm still trying to sort it all out--my best understanding is still a rapture of the church this year. But many people have believed in the possibility of the rapture being at other points as well, and so I do enjoy thinking these things over and trying to figure it out. Thanks Jim! I actually did some reading on thegospelintheendtimes.com and there are some interesting points. One thing that fascinates me is how different proponents of rapture timing tend to emphasize the verses that seem to support their view and ignore those that seem to contradict. For example, this guy who believes in pre-wrath rapture in his article about the timing of the rapture in the book of Revelation totally ignores Rev 12 rapture of the male-child. I was like "Common, man! Does Rev 12 even exist in your Bible? Or you just don't like the fact that the child is being raptured before the AOD?"  On the other hand I must agree with him that if the pre-trib rapture view is incorrect many will not be ready for the upcoming events... |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 30, 2017 22:46:59 GMT -6
Something occurred to me this morning that I have not seen before! I've always wondered about that little book, why is it not clear what that little book Daniel had was, but now it is all making sense. The book that Daniel and Ezekiel had WAS the book of Revelation! We see Michael in Daniel 12 going to war, The same as Revelation 12:7! John eating the book and it being sweet is the same verbiage as given to Ezekiel! I knew in my head that Revelation is an "OT prophecy book", but it JUST REGISTERED IN MY HEAD it's an "OT PROPHECY BOOK WRITTEN IN GREEK!!!!!". That's why we see more spoken of about the little book! John, who is Jewish, but writing years later in Greek to Jew, Gentile , and Christian( so that we now will KNOW there is no question that ALL mankind might benefit from the book of Revelation), is telling us "this IS That little book you have already read of that contained hidden info now REVEALED!!! [Daniel 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Ezekiel 2 6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. 7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. 8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee. 9 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; 10 and he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. Ezekiel 3:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. Revelation 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. Revelation 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. fascinating... |
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Post by rt on Jul 31, 2017 15:47:58 GMT -6
I posted my thoughts on the thread you linked to. |
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Post by rt on Jul 31, 2017 15:53:39 GMT -6
So as I have shared here in this thread, I see the seals, trumpets and bowls happening consecutively, with the first four seal riders and horses having been released when Christ entered into heaven to assume His throne after His death and Resurrection. Pre wrath folks and just about everyone else puts these seals within the 70th week and that is why they conclude a mid/pre wrath rapture view. I am very familiar with other rapture views, the link you provided does a good job of explaining some of the differences. |
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Post by rt on Jul 31, 2017 15:55:06 GMT -6
Truthseeker,
I would agree with you about the "little book" I tend to think that the OT prophets where shown the same prophecy that John was shown, only John gives us more detail.
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