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Post by disciple4life on Oct 25, 2017 14:17:59 GMT -6
mike - Thank you for the background story, and I grieve with you on the loss of your brother. Thankfully we have the blessed hope of all being together in our restored, resurrected bodies at the end of this age. I'm sure we can all agree you will see your brother healed hopefully in the coming days. You bring some very valid points about Paul. This is why we need all members of the body to function, lol, with all seriousness though this is why I pointed out about making sure we are walking in concordance with the will of our Father. I do not abstain from the the fact that we need full faith, the right heart, and full confidence of the Spirit. I also do not agree that there is something wrong with the person needing healing. However, without proper discernment in the Spirit to act in the will of our Father is not always there. For instance you continually tried everything to heal your brother, but was this what you wanted, or what the Father wanted? His plan is not always our plan, but in this sinful, fallen world He works all things out for our good even if we suffer for it. Would you and your family have been saved if you brother was perfectly healthy? Possibly, but God used him regardless to be a witness to you and your family and that in itself is a great testimony! We are all broken and in need of healing because of our sin. This includes physical ailments as well. But I know without the shadow of a doubt that the power of healing through the help of the Holy Spirit is alive and well today. Whether God allows us to heal others of physical ailments for His purpose or not, it all is used to draw us closer to Him and is for His glory alone. I hope this makes sense. Hello Mike, & Mike Taft, Great thoughts and insight from both of you. Mike, I can't even imagine the flood of emotions, wanting to see your brother be healed and all the suffering he endured. MT, I agree that God is fully sovereign, and is Jehovah Rapha, The Great physician, and at the same time, his ways are higher than our ways. I and my immediate family members have experienced supernatural, divine healing, and even doctors told us that there was no way that science or medical doctors could explain it. Are all the gifts alive and for the church today. Absolutely yes. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is one huge question that is missing in the conversation and I think it's crucial to the topic of healing, and rightly dividing the word of truth. It is a two-sided question. Rather, the same question presented in two ways. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our emotions, our opinions, or our experiences. **Remember that we never interpret scripture through our (or anyone else' experience -but rather, we interpret our experiences through the lens of scripture.) Is it written anywhere in scripture that Jesus healed every person that was sick, everywhere, in his whole life and ministry? NO it is not. Does it say anywhere (Is it written anywhere) that all Christians would/could heal everyone everywhere? No it doesn't Here is our first clue. No verse, or passage anywhere that says Christ or the apostles or Christians everywhere will be healed.
*** Now we consider Narrative vs Normative or Descriptive vs Prescriptive. I know Mike and MT know these, but everyone else might not. Narrative is just Jesus or Paul or Matthew telling what happened. It's a story - Narrative. Normative is a command of what we should do or what is across the board. 'Avoid sexual immorality!' Descriptive is simply describing an event, Prescriptive is a command or Doctrine that applies to Christians everywhere. "Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. There were narratives in the Gospels, specific events where Jesus healed everyone at that particular time and place. *** Now we look at the question posed from the other side. Does the Bible give us specific examples of when certain people were not healed. Yes. - Paul had a physical infirmity/ illness that he prayed and asked 3 times for healing. God did not heal him.
- Timothy was listed as being sick and Paul told him to take no longer water, but wine for you sickness. We also know that Timothy had "often/frequent illness/ infirmities.
- Trophimus - "Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick" (2 Timothy 4:20).
- Jesus himself practiced selective healing - All the other sick, lame, crippled, blind people at the pool of Bethsaida. In fact we know that only one person was healed. None of the others - including all kinds of sickness were healed.
- Many were sick among the believers in the church at Corinth. "For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick and a number sleep." 1 Corinthians 11:29,30
- Then, we also have one of the Gospel writers, Inspired by the Holy Spirit, - Luke, who was a physician. If God heals everyone, or if it's God's will that everyone is healed, then he would not have chosen a physician to be one of the writers of the Gospels. This would make God's word contradict itself.
- So regarding the televangelists like Todd Stone, Don Mohler, Benny Hinn, others who say God wants everyone to be healed, "and those who say otherwise are making excuses" - it doesn't make them False Prophets.
Are they our brothers and sisters - Yes! What we can say categorically is that based on explicitly clear passages from scripture, they are not rightly dividing the word. Sometimes, as in the case of Nick Vjucic, or Joni Eraekson Tada, and the Apostle Paul, Jim Elliot and Nate Saint, and countless others, God has a higher purpose than their healing - and it has nothing to do with anyone's lack of faith -- not the sick person, and not the person praying. To say, he or she is not "walking fully in that gifting" or that they have doubt is not only poor hermeneutics, but a direct contradiction of what scripture says, and the work of Christ. Does God still heal? yes, Does he want everyone to be healed. No, Not in this life, but we can rest in the fact that in heaven, Eden will be restored. Maranatha.
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 25, 2017 14:36:40 GMT -6
mike - Thank you for the background story, and I grieve with you on the loss of your brother. Thankfully we have the blessed hope of all being together in our restored, resurrected bodies at the end of this age. I'm sure we can all agree you will see your brother healed hopefully in the coming days. You bring some very valid points about Paul. This is why we need all members of the body to function, lol, with all seriousness though this is why I pointed out about making sure we are walking in concordance with the will of our Father. I do not abstain from the the fact that we need full faith, the right heart, and full confidence of the Spirit. I also do not agree that there is something wrong with the person needing healing. However, without proper discernment in the Spirit to act in the will of our Father is not always there. For instance you continually tried everything to heal your brother, but was this what you wanted, or what the Father wanted? His plan is not always our plan, but in this sinful, fallen world He works all things out for our good even if we suffer for it. Would you and your family have been saved if you brother was perfectly healthy? Possibly, but God used him regardless to be a witness to you and your family and that in itself is a great testimony! We are all broken and in need of healing because of our sin. This includes physical ailments as well. But I know without the shadow of a doubt that the power of healing through the help of the Holy Spirit is alive and well today. Whether God allows us to heal others of physical ailments for His purpose or not, it all is used to draw us closer to Him and is for His glory alone. I hope this makes sense. Hello Mike, & Mike Taft, Great thoughts and insight from both of you. Mike, I can't even imagine the flood of emotions, wanting to see your brother be healed and all the suffering he endured. MT, I agree that God is fully sovereign, and is Jehovah Rapha, The Great physician, and at the same time, his ways are higher than our ways. I and my immediate family members have experienced supernatural, divine healing, and even doctors told us that there was no way that science or medical doctors could explain it. Are all the gifts alive and for the church today. Absolutely yes. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is one huge question that is missing in the conversation and I think it's crucial to the topic of healing, and rightly dividing the word of truth. It is a two-sided question. Rather, the same question presented in two ways. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our emotions, our opinions, or our experiences. **Remember that we never interpret scripture through our (or anyone else' experience -but rather, we interpret our experiences through the lens of scripture.) Is it written anywhere in scripture that Jesus healed every person that was sick, everywhere, in his whole life and ministry? NO it is not. Does it say anywhere (Is it written anywhere) that all Christians would/could heal everyone everywhere? No it doesn't Here is our first clue. No verse, or passage anywhere that says Christ or the apostles or Christians everywhere will be healed.
*** Now we consider Narrative vs Normative or Descriptive vs Prescriptive. I know Mike and MT know these, but everyone else might not. Narrative is just Jesus or Paul or Matthew telling what happened. It's a story - Narrative. Normative is a command of what we should do or what is across the board. 'Avoid sexual immorality!' Descriptive is simply describing an event, Prescriptive is a command or Doctrine that applies to Christians everywhere. "Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. There were narratives in the Gospels, specific events where Jesus healed everyone at that particular time and place. *** Now we look at the question posed from the other side. Does the Bible give us specific examples of when certain people were not healed. Yes. - Paul had a physical infirmity/ illness that he prayed and asked 3 times for healing. God did not heal him.
- Timothy was listed as being sick and Paul told him to take no longer water, but wine for you sickness. We also know that Timothy had "often/frequent illness/ infirmities.
- Trophimus - "Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick" (2 Timothy 4:20).
- Jesus himself practiced selective healing - All the other sick, lame, crippled, blind people at the pool of Bethsaida. In fact we know that only one person was healed. None of the others - including all kinds of sickness were healed.
- Many were sick among the believers in the church at Corinth. "For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick and a number sleep." 1 Corinthians 11:29,30
- Then, we also have one of the Gospel writers, Inspired by the Holy Spirit, - Luke, who was a physician. If God heals everyone, or if it's God's will that everyone is healed, then he would not have chosen a physician to be one of the writers of the Gospels. This would make God's word contradict itself.
- So regarding the televangelists like Todd Stone, Don Mohler, Benny Hinn, others who say God wants everyone to be healed, "and those who say otherwise are making excuses" - it doesn't make them False Prophets.
Are they our brothers and sisters - Yes! What we can say categorically is that based on explicitly clear passages from scripture, they are not rightly dividing the word. Sometimes, as in the case of Nick Vjucic, or Joni Eraekson Tada, and the Apostle Paul, Jim Elliot and Nate Saint, and countless others, God has a higher purpose than their healing - and it has nothing to do with anyone's lack of faith -- not the sick person, and not the person praying. To say, he or she is not "walking fully in that gifting" or that they have doubt is not only poor hermeneutics, but a direct contradiction of what scripture says, and the work of Christ. Does God still heal? yes, Does he want everyone to be healed. No, Not in this life, but we can rest in the fact that in heaven, Eden will be restored. Maranatha.
I need to start re-reading my bible again with the Greek text...forgive me for any ignorance in my statements. With Matt. 17:14-20, this relates to the 72 sent out, and not all of them were probably walking in belief. However, I'm still perplexed as to why Jesus asked Peter, "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" While this doesn't deal with healing miracles, it's still a miracle for Peter to be walking on the water, then all of a sudden sink like a rock. Someone care to enlighten my lack of understanding? |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 25, 2017 14:50:49 GMT -6
I would be very happy to hear others' take on it, but here's my brief take.
Many pastors and Bible scholars make the connection that Peter did indeed walk on the water - This was a miracle. Christ clearly knows what's in Peter's heart and mind.
**At this point, they extrapolate - make a conclusion not supported by the text. Peter started out with strong faith, but became distracted by the wind, waves, circumstances around him.
Fear and doubt crept up in his mind, and rather than focus on Jesus, he was focused on his circumstances - his surroundings.
We know that Peter did indeed start walking on the water. What made him doubt/ start to fear? His own thoughts, - the enemy, the storm?
We know that Christ knew what was in Peter's heart and mind. For what ever reason, he started sinking.
While it's not explicitly in the text - it's a good reminder for all of us to keep our focus on Christ, and not be consumed by storms, or overwhelmed by the hard circumstances around us. My hunch is that there is some clue in the Greek text that is lost in translation. Disciple4Life ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 15:28:00 GMT -6
Hello. SK back to beat the current drum the Lord seems to not let me put down...  We just can't make this stuff up..... The text is actually pretty clear as to what happened. * Storm on the sea * Jesus walks toward them * They see Jesus * Peter says, if it is really you - give the word to come to you. In other words, speak to me. * And then Jesus did speak - he said, "Come." * And Peter heard the word, which strengthened his faith, burned of his fleshly limitations, and he obeyed. Ready (hear the word), Aim (discern the word), Fire (obey the word). * But then Peter is on the water and the scriptures says - he saw the wind was boisterous! What a conveniently odd translation. This word is almost always translated strong or mighty. But in this case, a sound based word is used. Certainly done for this moment right now. The wind was noisy. And the sound of it cut off his hearing for the word. His faith failed - his flesh (fear) returned. * Jesus called him on it. But of course there is always more to a passage than just the historical narrative. God's word is alive and cannot be boxed in! There is a lesson for us today, not just that we should keep our focus on Jesus - but how to keep our focus on Jesus - by hearing his Word and not allowing other sounds to overwhelm his Word. |
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 25, 2017 15:45:32 GMT -6
Hello. SK back to beat the current drum the Lord seems to not let me put down... We just can't make this stuff up..... The text is actually pretty clear as to what happened. * Storm on the sea * Jesus walks toward them * They see Jesus * Peter says, if it is really you - give the word to come to you. In other words, speak to me. * And then Jesus did speak - he said, "Come." * And Peter heard the word, which strengthened his faith, burned of his fleshly limitations, and he obeyed. Ready (hear the word), Aim (discern the word), Fire (obey the word). * But then Peter is on the water and the scriptures says - he saw the wind was boisterous! What a conveniently odd translation. This word is almost always translated strong or mighty. But in this case, a sound based word is used. Certainly done for this moment right now. The wind was noisy. And the sound of it cut off his hearing for the word. His faith failed - his flesh (fear) returned. * Jesus called him on it. But of course there is always more to a passage than just the historical narrative. God's word is alive and cannot be boxed in! There is a lesson for us today, not just that we should keep our focus on Jesus - but how to keep our focus on Jesus - by hearing his Word and not allowing other sounds to overwhelm his Word. I agree with you SK and with D4L. I understand this passage every time I read it. Our focus has to be completely on Jesus. My question is, can "fear, doubt, lack of faith, whatever"...can it interfere or prevent you from completing a miracle such as healing someone? We are still in our fleshly bodies and our flesh wars with our Spirit daily. Can we lose focus on Jesus in any case and fail in completing a miracle? Edit: I'm asking God these same questions, I'm just hoping He's revealed it to one of you.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 15:48:34 GMT -6
I feel moved to press home an important point here....
As far as I am aware, there is no scripture (from Peter's perspective) to check the validity of what Peter heard Jesus say. He could not look up any confirming passage to verify that this word was of God.
Jesus' word "Come" is a completely new revelation. It is beyond the Word on the page, but it is still the Word of God.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 16:00:56 GMT -6
MikeTaft , I think the answer to that is, Yes. Your story of the disciples "failing" demonstrates that. We are sort of beating around two different scenarios. In one case, as disciple4life brought up, God may not desire that a person is healed today. So we do not hear a word from God in which to respond Amen. No healing happens. In another case, God may desire that a person be healed, but we cannot hear and discern his voice clearly enough to obey and accomplish in faith. No healing happens. I for one have never heard the Lord ask me to pray for someone's healing. I have heard my own voice on several occasions, but discerned it was me, not Him. However, I have been asked to pray for healing and perceived from the Lord that I should not. Jesus heard and did everything the Father spoke to Him. He was 100% effective. We are not. Notice what Jesus told the disciple when they failed. It was two parts. 1. Because of your unbelief. 2. This kind can only be cast out with prayer and fasting. This fasting, in combination with prayer (communing with God) is a form of denying ourselves. Which is part of our Pentecost (hearing) experience. It is basically a statement that the disciples were not perfect yet. Tabernacles baby! Coming soon to a creation near you!
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Post by mike on Oct 25, 2017 17:35:25 GMT -6
Mike, SK, D4L thank you guys for participating in this thread I am blessed by your insights, questions and Revelations.
From my own vantage point, when I am involved in threads like this I try (very hard) to maintain an open mind to what's being said (not saying anyone isn't). It's regularly stated by D4L that we may only have a piece and others have more completing the puzzle or at least more of the puzzle. Perhaps even I see something from 'over here' but SK is looking at from another angle seeing something else, or has been where I am and now at the new angle having a more descriptive picture to share.
The dialogue here is helping me and I thank you guys. Something I've said to myself that I am reminded of here is what SK said "we know we should focus on Jesus..." It's the actual focus that matters (doing this on my phone I can't see the actual quote 😁)...I equate this to "head knowledge" vs. "heart knowledge". I "know" I need to focus on Him to walk on water, but in my heart/spirit am I in tune with that focus? If I'm not I'm gonna sink, fast.
Lord help me focus
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 26, 2017 0:48:24 GMT -6
Hello again, guys, gals.
Good points by mike MikeTaft and @silentknight . Regarding the puzzle analogy - Mike, yes, some have more pieces than others - they have been on the journey longer than others, but the common thing is that no one has all the pieces, and the 'picture on the box' is faded/stained/blurry. It is only when we share and learn from others - connect the pieces that the picture becomes more clear. This is one of the best articles I've seen on Healing. It's very thorough and balanced. I've given multiple examples in different threads of what I mean when I say 'balanced'. I don't mean 'compromise or lukewarm' - I'm using it in the way that most people use it and understand it.
He articulates truth that God certainly heals today, but he also addresses the foundational question head on - that many Charismatics ignore. I think it harmonizes perfectly with @silentknight 's 2 numbered points above (and below) 3. Does God Want Everyone to Be Healed - NO. Having a conversation about Healing without this as a core part is rather like trying to have a conversation about End Times, where everyone ignores /pushes aside any use of the word Harpazo or rapture.
How can anyone expect to have a complete, Biblically accurate conversation about End Times, if we willfully leave out a key part (Harpazo)- due to some agenda.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father. John 14:12
"Using this verse in John as a basis, proponents of the belief that it is always God’s will to heal argue that Jesus healed all that were sick, [Which he did not] and since He said we would do greater, not lesser works than He, if we have the faith we should expect everyone we pray for to be healed also. While it must be acknowledged that this argument sounds reasonable, there are certain inescapable flaws in it. **
Jesus couldn’t have been referring only to physical healing when He made this statement, otherwise He would be guilty of false prophesying.
The simple fact is that the healing ministry of Jesus has never been reduplicated in history, not even by the Apostles (we shall see examples later). This fact is illustrated again and again even in the ministries of those who preach “healing in the atonement.” Many for whom they pray are not healed. We see from this that the healing ministry of Jesus was of a different order than that of the Church, to establish a unique purpose; the authenticity of His claim to be the Messiah.
However, even Jesus did not heal everyone. In John 5 we read that by the pool Bethesda Jesus found “a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered” (verse 3). Yet, after selecting only one man Jesus “slipped away while there was a crowed in that place” (verse 13). He could have healed everyone, but as in John 9 He [Jesus] chose to heal only one and for the glory of God." www.equip.org/article/healing-does-god-always-heal/ SilentKnight's 2 points - Blue
1. Because of your unbelief.
2. This kind can only be cast out with prayer and fasting. 3. God Doesn't Heal Everyone - no matter how much faith, fasting, or prayer they do. This is where the balance /Hearing/discernment comes in.
Those who are part of the Faith Healing movement never acknowledge this 3rd point - so when people aren't healed, they always have to place blame - if it's not put on the person who is sick, then they put it on each of us. Bob, or Jill, or Dave or Sam, Nina, Natalie, Marek, or Magda were not "walking in the gifting", or they couch it in some other language of blame. Sometimes a dream is just a dream - it's just talking puppies, and when we use solid Hermeneutics, we have to be aware that It's not God's will or plan that everyone is healed. - That's the part where we have to hear - discern ; though I want this person to be healed, if God does not want to heal them, then He is God.
Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1115/healing-rightly-diving-word?page=2#ixzz4wazj33No
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 26, 2017 5:04:58 GMT -6
Thanks D4L. I agree that Jesus did not heal everyone, nor the apostles, but I have to disagree that God does not want everyone healed. Just bear with me on this. The world is in a fallen state because of sin. That is why we are disconnect from God at birth because we are born in sin. We have disease and are mortal because of sin because the wage of sin is death. Now God does not heal everyone because we live in a world of sin with Satan ruling over the kingdoms of this world, however God works through this fallen world for His purpose to bring us back to communion with Him. He finally finished that redemptive work on the cross.
The reason I disagree with the statement "God doesn't want everyone to be healed" is out of character with God Himself. He is holy, perfect, and when He made the world He saw it was "good." If we look at the long term plan, God is ultimately going to remove sin. He has to because He is God and the only way to reconcile with His creation is to remove sin. This is why we see in Rev. 7:17
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of water: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
And again in Rev. 22: 3
3 And there shall be no more curse...
The ultimate end game is to remove sin and with that the curse which will end disease, sickness, pain, aging, and the final penalty of death.
God wants us healed, but His redemptive plan to bring that healing is a bit long than our wanting of instant gratification for healing to occur now. It's coming and to receive that healing is to accept Jesus Christ so that all who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).
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Post by mike on Oct 26, 2017 5:48:19 GMT -6
Mike I think I'm missing something in the above comment about Gods will for all to be healed. Can you clarify if you mean all to be healed here on earth in our physical bodies? OR do you mean healing as in either here or when we pass (or raptured)?
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 26, 2017 6:05:16 GMT -6
Mike I think I'm missing something in the above comment about Gods will for all to be healed. Can you clarify if you mean all to be healed here on earth in our physical bodies? OR do you mean healing as in either here or when we pass (or raptured)? It's God's will for all to be healed in the long run. That is why He has reconciled us through Jesus Christ. In the present, God can heal us physically for His own purpose now (as in today), but we also are in a fallen world of sin with a waging spiritual war between Satan and God. War is a product of sin, and in war there are casualties (that includes us Christians). Even though there is still the curse (for the time being) God will use it for His glory by either healing us physically, or allowing someone (like your brother) to bring not only that person, but others closer or even back to Him. This is making sense in my head, but let me know if I've still lost yah mike, lol. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 26, 2017 6:46:45 GMT -6
Thanks D4L. I agree that Jesus did not heal everyone, nor the apostles, but I have to disagree that God does not want everyone healed. Just bear with me on this. The reason I disagree with the statement "God doesn't want everyone to be healed" is out of character with God Himself. He is holy, perfect, and when He made the world He saw it was "good." If we look at the long term plan, God is ultimately going to remove sin. He has to because He is God and the only way to reconcile with His creation is to remove sin. This is why we see in Rev. 7:17
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of water: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
And again in Rev. 22: 3
3 And there shall be no more curse...The ultimate end game is to remove sin and with that the curse which will end disease, sickness, pain, aging, and the final penalty of death. You lost me, brother. I think I agree, but I'm confused. ;-) Could you clarify. The part in blue, is where I'm not sure what you mean. This part "If we look at the long-term plan, . . . and then the passages from Rev." seems like you mean after the rapture, - when we are all in Heaven. - With resurrected/ glorified bodies ?? Yes?? The verses in Revel are either in heaven, or after the Millennium - New heaven and New Earth.
On that part, I think 99% of Christians - from every tribe and denomination would agree - that after we are in heaven, or raptured, - in the end of the story- God will reconcile all injustice, he will judge the earth, and all the past wrongs will be righted, -- when "our immortal bodies take on immortality, and these corruptible vessels, take on incorruptible" - when the rapture happens, or you could have in mind specifically in the new heaven and new earth. When we are resurrected - changed - in the twinkling of an eye, all the sickness, all the illness, cancer, deafness, blindness, MS, every pain and trace of the "Fall" will be erased.
As for up until the rapture happens, then, - in my humble opinion I would say decidedly no. - And I definitely want you to see if I'm hearing you brother, and respond. ;-)
The reason I would say "On this side of the rapture, until we are resurrected/harpazo with Christ, that it's not God's will to heal everyone- would be because of what we see in the NT, the ministry of Christ himself - selective healing - Pool of Bethesda/Bethsaida - Christ only healed one out of dozens of sick people. Even after the resurrection of Christ, we see the other clear cases from scripture - Paul himself, Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus, and all the Christians in the church at Corinth who were sick, and the reality of the entire world. What we should expect to find, is that the rates of sickness, cancer, disease, MS, strokes, etc, etc, should be much lower, if not even non-existence in Charismatic churches. Are people healed supernaturally? - absolutely, but as the author noted, no one - not even the apostles, nor Jesus healed everyone, and one of the reasons for this is that by these miracles, Jesus proved he was the Messiah.
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 26, 2017 7:37:42 GMT -6
Thanks D4L. I agree that Jesus did not heal everyone, nor the apostles, but I have to disagree that God does not want everyone healed. Just bear with me on this. The reason I disagree with the statement "God doesn't want everyone to be healed" is out of character with God Himself. He is holy, perfect, and when He made the world He saw it was "good." If we look at the long term plan, God is ultimately going to remove sin. He has to because He is God and the only way to reconcile with His creation is to remove sin. This is why we see in Rev. 7:17
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of water: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
And again in Rev. 22: 3
3 And there shall be no more curse...The ultimate end game is to remove sin and with that the curse which will end disease, sickness, pain, aging, and the final penalty of death. You lost me, brother. I think I agree, but I'm confused. ;-) Could you clarify. The part in blue, is where I'm not sure what you mean. This part "If we look at the long-term plan, . . . and then the passages from Rev." seems like you mean after the rapture, - when we are all in Heaven. - With resurrected/ glorified bodies ?? Yes?? The verses in Revel are either in heaven, or after the Millennium - New heaven and New Earth.
On that part, I think 99% of Christians - from every tribe and denomination would agree - that after we are in heaven, or raptured, - in the end of the story- God will reconcile all injustice, he will judge the earth, and all the past wrongs will be righted, -- when "our immortal bodies take on immortality, and these corruptible vessels, take on incorruptible" - when the rapture happens, or you could have in mind specifically in the new heaven and new earth. When we are resurrected - changed - in the twinkling of an eye, all the sickness, all the illness, cancer, deafness, blindness, MS, every pain and trace of the "Fall" will be erased.
As for up until the rapture happens, then, - in my humble opinion I would say decidedly no. - And I definitely want you to see if I'm hearing you brother, and respond. ;-)
The reason I would say "On this side of the rapture, until we are resurrected/harpazo with Christ, that it's not God's will to heal everyone- would be because of what we see in the NT, the ministry of Christ himself - selective healing - Pool of Bethesda/Bethsaida - Christ only healed one out of dozens of sick people. Even after the resurrection of Christ, we see the other clear cases from scripture - Paul himself, Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus, and all the Christians in the church at Corinth who were sick, and the reality of the entire world. What we should expect to find, is that the rates of sickness, cancer, disease, MS, strokes, etc, etc, should be much lower, if not even non-existence in Charismatic churches. Are people healed supernaturally? - absolutely, but as the author noted, no one - not even the apostles, nor Jesus healed everyone, and one of the reasons for this is that by these miracles, Jesus proved he was the Messiah.
You are correct D4L. After the rapture, the millenial reign, and most emphatically when a new heaven and earth are made, God's will for healing will be accomplished. When I read your post it seemed like you were making an "absolute' It is not God's will to heal everybody. Period. Indefinitely. This may have just been a misunderstanding as I agree with what you wrote above. What I see as absolute is God does want us all to be healed by His redemptive work through His son Jesus Christ. However, until that rapture happens, and this age comes to a close, not everyone will be healed physically as God allows sin to remain in the world until that point in time when all sin is removed along with the curse. 1 Tim. 2:3-4 3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth [redemption in Christ]. As we see here Paul points out that God want's all of us to be saved and healed of our sin. But until that glorious day of His return, God allows physical ailments to exist, but can use them for our good (Romans 8:28). Even though Romans 8:28 refers to believers, God can use the consequences of sin to bring unbelieving hearts back to Him. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 26, 2017 8:02:24 GMT -6
MikeTaft - You are correct D4L. After the rapture, the millenial reign, and most emphatically when a new heaven and earth are made, God's will for healing will be accomplished. When I read your post it seemed like you were making an "absolute' It is not God's will to heal everybody. Period. Indefinitely. This may have just been a misunderstanding as I agree with what you wrote above. What I see as absolute is God does want us all to be healed by His redemptive work through His son Jesus Christ. However, until that rapture happens, and this age comes to a close, not everyone will be healed physically as God allows sin to remain in the world until that point in time when all sin is removed along with the curse. 1 Tim. 2:3-4 3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth [redemption in Christ]. As we see here Paul points out that God want's all of us to be saved and healed of our sin. But until that glorious day of His return, God allows physical ailments to exist, but can use them for our good (Romans 8:28). Even though Romans 8:28 refers to believers, God can use the consequences of sin to bring unbelieving hearts back to Him. D4L - Amen !! Hallelujah, Now, You're preaching it, That'swhadimtalkinabout. As we say in Tennessee "That Dog will Hunt." Man, I can't wait for that day ;-) As much as I "lean strongly that the Feasts are inseparably linked to the Messiah" ;-) I would so love for it to be This Week. I'll get to meet all my Unsealed brothers and sisters. " Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1115/healing-rightly-diving-word?page=2#ixzz4wcfQtrHD
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