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Post by socalexile on Sept 28, 2017 5:50:06 GMT -6
Henry, I don't know why you decided to answer my question on predestination in a PM, but I'll let everyone know that you agree with the Calvinist idea of Predestination. How nice. You think you are exposing something said in secret? First, your question "Are you referring to the Calvinist concept or the Biblical one?" is arrogant, in my view. At the least it's loaded. So it wasn't asked in good spirit. You could apologize for it, instead of pushing your arrogance further. I don't believe in arminian free-will, yet I have never and would never ask anyone who does believe in it something like: "Are you referring to the armenian concept of will or the Biblical one?" That's the type of a question like: "What have you had for dinner? Pizza or real food?" A smug question. I don't claim to have 100% knowledge on biblical doctrines, but only full conviction on certain doctrines, so I don't go around like I have been on the third Heaven where truth has been revealed to me without glass darkly. Secondly, the second thread I started on this board, after I have registered here the first time, was about my view on predestination and how it largely fits what's known as calvinistic view. It's the thread: unsealed.boards.net/thread/365/end-time-prophecy-freeSo what you were pretending to somehow bring to the open, I opened in detail as soon as I registered on this board. But even taking that aside, when one talks about predestination it by and large means predestination in line with what's known as calvinistic view. If I already didn't made any clarification regarding the term in this thread, people can generally safely assume what I meant by it, without ever reading my previous posts. Type "Bible predestination" in the Google and top articles are either presenting calvinistic view or rebuking calvinistic view. What I'm saying is that the term is generally associated with calvinism. And I didn't rebuke it in my post. So... I guess you understand that. And that's in addition to my post being aligned with that view of predestination. So it's possible that you in fact knew what I was talking about, but you had an agenda, an axe to grind, so you fired your loaded question. Thirdly, I've sent you a message privately because this thread is not about discussion on predestination, and there is no need to bloat it with such discussion and move the thread off the topic. I could have just dismissed your question, but I didn't want to brush you off, so I answered you, privately. You could have extended me the courtesy by continuing dialog privately, and get clarification from me first. But you choose to turn back on me immediately and run to tell everybody what I said to you in private. What a "slick" move. Not exposing yourself as being a person one can safely turn to in private, though. And that would be a mild thing to say. Finally, predestination is all over the Bible, starting from Genesis. I can write a book on the predestination, filled to the brim with references and connections from the Bible. It's very deep Biblical subject. You couldn't write a tenth of a similar book on free-will. Nobody can. Evidence for predestination is massive. But many don't see it, by God's choice. That's how it is. But it will all be revealed when time comes. To close with what I've written privately to you: I could accept to be wrong on predestination, though, when we get on the other side and stop seeing through glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12), but I would be really really surprised if it turns out I'm wrong. I brought it to might because many Christians are unaware that the Bible uses the terms differently than Calvinist (and Arminian) theologians do. Why do you have a problem with that and jump to conclusions? I want to have an open discussion on it - but you get offended and accuse me. Why? We can move this to another thread if you want. Why are you angry at having something you believe in brought to light? Why did you even bring it up as a major issue with the church? You want to play like you don't want to argue about it, then go on to argue about it. Which is it? BTW, I am NOT an Arminian, as Calvinists generally assume about people who reject Calvinism. However, free will is a fact - God does not pick and choose who is saved and who isn't. Christ died for the whole world (1 John 2:2), and whosoever believes in Him HAS eternal life. Please take a look at what I posted and lets take this to another thread.
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Post by henrym on Sept 28, 2017 6:06:00 GMT -6
You did brought things to light in this thread, that's for sure.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 28, 2017 6:10:00 GMT -6
You did brought things to light in this thread, that's for sure. Well, that instead of addressing the points on Biblical predestination vs. Calvinist predestination, you attacked me personally and threw a fit. You certainly brought things to light for sure. And there's a HUGE difference between the two concepts of the term.
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Post by mike on Sept 28, 2017 6:59:17 GMT -6
Hi @henrym I saw the earlier dialogue and the link the thread from July. I decided to read through that and something jumped out at me that doesnt sit right. I dont want to jump into the mix between you and SoCal so please don't take my question as "taking sides" as that is not the intent. The question of free will is what you addressed in this post: If I dont have free will, what am I doing? Why try? I am truly a puppet on a string? That is how I read what you wrote. I dont believe that I am a puppet. I believe that though I could be Gods puppet He loves us enough to allow us to come to our conclusions despite the fact He knows that decision ahead of time. But I'm interested to hear your response to this. Did God pull my strings this morning, wake me up, showered, choose what clothes I'd wear, get me dressed, drive me to work. None of that was my decision?
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Post by kjs on Sept 28, 2017 7:31:34 GMT -6
Hi guys:
please keep the discussion calm -- no personal attacks.
Even the puppet comment is a tad "baiting" in nature....
We are all brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus....
None of us know completely how it all works.....
For example we are told NONE come unless they are called first.....
But we are also told NONE drawn will be lost......
Seems to me that is a bit of a paradox ..... So I personally try to avoid arguing that point since both appear valid.....
No one is a puppet - everyone gets to make a decision from every day life decisions of what to wear, to go to work or not ....
To what to do with the "call" or drawing of the Spirit and that seems to be whether to accept or reject....
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Post by socalexile on Sept 28, 2017 7:37:52 GMT -6
I think Alvin Plantinga pretty showed the superior good in libertarian free will, which this sums up:
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Post by henrym on Sept 28, 2017 8:23:41 GMT -6
If I dont have free will, what am I doing? Why try? I am truly a puppet on a string? That is how I read what you wrote. I dont believe that I am a puppet. I believe that though I could be Gods puppet He loves us enough to allow us to come to our conclusions despite the fact He knows that decision ahead of time. But I'm interested to hear your response to this. Did God pull my strings this morning, wake me up, showered, choose what clothes I'd wear, get me dressed, drive me to work. None of that was my decision? Hi Mike, I see predestination as very big subject. It can't be explained in short, that I know how, so any answer I give here is lacking and can be easily misunderstood. And, even though it's all over the Bible, as I see it, we don't have full picture of it so we can't know many things about it from here. With that caveat, though, I'll try to give some answers to your questions. We are not puppets because we have consciousness. With our consciousness we experience this life. But, we can't exercise to freely do what we want to do. We are limited by God's decree He put on our lives. Just for starters, did God decide in what country will you be born, at what time, in what race, in what kind of family, with what talents and deficiencies? It's all God's choice for you. When Moses complained to God for not being eloquent, and that he shouldn't be a leader, God said to him: "Who makes people deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD?" Jesus said to not worry about tomorrow and that we can't add a single hour to our lives by worrying. Why? Job 14:5 gives a hint: "A person's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed." Solomon says: "Many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the LORD will stand." Also: "The dice is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." David says: "The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples." Now when you ask did God decide at what time will you wake up this morning, will you take shower or not, what will you wear etc., I don't know at what level of detail is God involved. I have a guess, but even without going into what is my guess, I think your overall life and where you are in life right now is fully God's doing. It was God choice for you, and God executed it. God says: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." Notice that this quote is often misquoted as God saying He knows the end. But He doesn't say He knows the end, by somehow fast forwarding to it to see what happens, but that He declares it. He announces it. He says in advance what He will do, according to all His pleasure, from the beginning till the end. He says He is in full control. It's not about your or me being a puppet. It's about God guiding us very intimately through this life. That's how I get it. Like when a father teaches his baby son or daughter to walk. Baby is doing the movements, but father is holding the baby all the way until baby can walk on it's own. I think our whole life on earth is one big lesson in walking. That's why we are limited in free will, and basically, don't have it. Father is leading us through life to teach us what we need to learn. And after, on the other side, I believe we'll get to fully exercise our consciousness and decision making ability. I didn't write about role predestination has in salvation, but just in short: I think Bible reveals rather directly that we don't choose to believe, but that God gives us a gift of faith. We believe because God allows us to believe. Salvation, then, is completely 100% gift from God, because we didn't do anything for it, not even choose to believe. Paul says: "For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves."
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Post by mike on Sept 28, 2017 8:31:50 GMT -6
kjs perhaps you interpreted my "puppet" comment that way, wasnt meant that way at all. I'm trying to understand the other side of this and to me not having any free will as the comment i quoted says, tells me I am a puppet or maybe better said a marionette. I dont understand that position and wanted to hear the perspective. I relate best to examples of things.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 28, 2017 8:44:48 GMT -6
I didn't write about role predestination has in salvation, but just in short: I think Bible reveals rather directly that we don't choose to believe, but that God gives us a gift of faith. We believe because God allows us to believe. Salvation, then, is completely 100% gift from God, because we didn't do anything for it, not even choose to believe. Paul says: "For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves." This was refuted and explained in the video I previously posted. 1- Faith isn't the gift in Ephesians 2:8. According to the Greek, "saved by grace through faith" is the gift, as Paul stated in Romans 5. In Ephesians 2:8, for the "gift" to be "faith" it must be in the same gender in Greek. Problem is, "gift" is neuter, and "faith" and "grace" is feminine, with "saved" being masculine; thus, the gift is not faith. The gift actually refers the entire previous statement that, "you are saved by grace through faith". 2- If faith can only be by an act of God, then what about 2 Peter 3:9? Did the Holy Spirit lie here, and God doesn't really want ALL men not to perish? And how could Jesus say in John 5:40, "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."? It utterly undermines the character of God. 3- Look at this key part of Ephesians 1:4: That "in Him" is very important here. Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world, and we who believe IN HIM are imputed His righteousness and we are IN HIM. As 1 Peter says: And we are IN HIM. He is the elect (Isaiah 42:1) and HE is the chosen (Luke 23:35). It is more explained here in more detail: 4- Again, "adoption as sons" isn't speaking of salvation itself, but our still-future redemption of the body as Romans 8 says:
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Post by yardstick on Sept 28, 2017 11:55:13 GMT -6
I think Alvin Plantinga pretty showed the superior good in libertarian free will, which this sums up: I believe there is a flaw in conclusion #7 which may preclude the subsequent #8 conclusion.
It has not been established that the creatures freely perform more morally good actions than evil actions. Therefore, the world's value cannot be established. i.e.: if more evil actions are performed than good ones, can it be concluded that there is more value than a world with no free creatures at all?
If the world's value cannot be established because the value of goodness and the value of evilness cannot be summed with the guarantee that there will be a positive result (more goodness than evil), then the argument above cannot conclude that God had good reason to create the said world; unless we assume that He foreknew that there would be, on balance, more goodness than evil; and that the value of the average goodness was greater than the value of the average evil, such that the sum would result in a balance tending towards goodness.
This assumption has not been proven in the conclusions drawn.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 28, 2017 19:31:03 GMT -6
I think Alvin Plantinga pretty showed the superior good in libertarian free will, which this sums up: I believe there is a flaw in conclusion #7 which may preclude the subsequent #8 conclusion.
It has not been established that the creatures freely perform more morally good actions than evil actions. Therefore, the world's value cannot be established. i.e.: if more evil actions are performed than good ones, can it be concluded that there is more value than a world with no free creatures at all?
If the world's value cannot be established because the value of goodness and the value of evilness cannot be summed with the guarantee that there will be a positive result (more goodness than evil), then the argument above cannot conclude that God had good reason to create the said world; unless we assume that He foreknew that there would be, on balance, more goodness than evil; and that the value of the average goodness was greater than the value of the average evil, such that the sum would result in a balance tending towards goodness.
This assumption has not been proven in the conclusions drawn.
Of course, Christ was chosen to be the Savior before the foundation of the world. The good comes from God, not man.
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Post by henrym on Sept 29, 2017 5:52:07 GMT -6
I see a lot of likes on man being the one who chooses his destiny, and not one like on God being in full control. On a Christian forum. That's really... a sight to see.
Jesus told the apostles: "You did not choose me, but I chose you." He repeated it numerous times (John 6:70, John.13:18, John 15:16, John 15:19, Acts 9:15). Maybe so they don't forget. He even told them that He chose the work they'll do: "You did not choose me, but I chose you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain."
Regarding the salvation Jesus says: "This is the will of Him who sent me - that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day." And "all that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
So it's God that gives to Jesus those who are to be saved. It's God's choice.
What can God present in His word to make it clearer? Maybe this: "I was found by those who did not seek Me. I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."
Throught the Bible there's a pattern of God doing the choosing. God chose Abraham, Moses, David, prophets... all the way to Paul whom He delivered on the road to Damascus. Even to the last days: "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days."
Paul confirms it three times explicitly.
Paul says that "God had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace." Paul writes that "God chose you as the firstfruits/from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (some original manuscripts have the word firstfruits, some the word beginning, but it doesn't change the essence).
Most famously from Paul we have the verse that's butchered in this thread, on the altar of last thread of desire to be free from God's will: "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love. In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves."
It's choice, choice, choice from God. And it's glorious: "We have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worked all things after the counsel of His own will."
James confirms: "Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?"
Peter confirms: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."
David confirms: "How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You to dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple."
God chooses who is saved just as He chose Israel as His nation: "The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."
Because "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong." And because "God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He has compassion."
Hey, at least you get free-will to choose who you will marry. Wait, did Jesus say: "What God has joined together, let no one separate."
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Post by mike on Sept 29, 2017 7:03:53 GMT -6
@henrym - the request of the mods was to continue the conversation here...I am not an eloquent writer. Although I try I usually fail. So if my comments seem argumentative, please know that there is no tone. I want to dialogue with you here. I am not trying to convince you to think otherwise either. This topic has been debated since what the 1800's? So it will continue, but we are still brothers believing in the same God and need to point people to the most important thing, which is Christ crucified, died/buried, rose on the 3rd day I dont want to argue this. I have heard both sides of this coin before and the great philosopher Ravi Zacharias once said in a Q&A "you are here asking me this question right now, is this not evidence that you had to make the decision to ask this very question" in response to someone saying we are all predestined. Dear brother, let us continue to encourage not only one another but those who are lost. Whether God picked us before the world began or He offers the gift freely to those who believe, we do not know who those are who will be chosen or will freely receive so let us find common ground and continue to work for Him as the time is growing short.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 29, 2017 7:44:03 GMT -6
Okay, so this is a great learning opportunity, let's begin: I see a lot of likes on man being the one who chooses his destiny, and not one like on God being in full control. On a Christian forum. That's really... a sight to see. The problem with the typical appeal to God's sovereignty that Calvinists make is that the underlying premise is that God is only sovereign as long as He abides by the rules of Calvinism - which means He isn't sovereign at all, as if God is incapable of doing His will without removing ours. It really is a self-refuting argument that makes God out to be a weakling that must force His will.
The God of the Bible is holy and perfect, and the embodiment of love itself. He show grace and can work with even the worst of our circumstances. He graciously does not force people to conform to His will, but gives us the choice of the greatest, freest gift in the world, that HE gives us the choice to accept or reject.
What Calvinism ultimately does is make God the author of sin, since God causally determined Adam to sin and all the unsaved to remain unsaved.
This is historically, a Gnostic teaching that a church father named Irenaeus addressed here. Jesus told the apostles: "You did not choose me, but I chose you." He repeated it numerous times (John 6:70, John.13:18, John 15:16, John 15:19, Acts 9:15). Maybe so they don't forget. He even told them that He chose the work they'll do: "You did not choose me, but I chose you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." Context context context. He told that to the APOSTLES, who He chose to continue His work after He went to the Father. Acts 9:15 is said to Paul, who was chosen by Jesus to replace Judas and become the Apostle to the Gentiles. This term is always in reference to those chosen for ministry, not salvation; including Christ Himself Regarding the salvation Jesus says: "This is the will of Him who sent me - that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day." And "all that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." Watch: So it's God that gives to Jesus those who are to be saved. It's God's choice. So God lied in 2 Peter 3:9? What can God present in His word to make it clearer? Maybe this: "I was found by those who did not seek Me. I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me." Keep reading, "21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." This is talking about the rejection of the Jews vs. the acceptance by the Gentiles - it's not even talking about individual salvation. Don't you read the context of the verses you use as proof-texts? Throught the Bible there's a pattern of God doing the choosing. God chose Abraham, Moses, David, prophets... all the way to Paul whom He delivered on the road to Damascus. Even to the last days: "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days." Which is Matthew 24:22, which is speaking of the Jews during the Tribulation; they are the elect according to Isaiah 45:4 and 65:9. He chose the Jews as a people to bring about His will in the last days, which is the context of this chapter. This isn't speaking about individual Gentiles at all. Paul confirms it three times explicitly. Paul says that "God had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace." KEEP READING, "16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus."
Paul was called to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. This is not saying that ALL MEN HAVE NO FREE WILL.
Paul writes that "God chose you as the firstfruits/from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (some original manuscripts have the word firstfruits, some the word beginning, but it doesn't change the essence). Again, keep reading: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ," meaning that they were called BY the Gospel (which calls all who hear it - John 12:32), TO the obtaining of glory, i.e. the redemption of this sinful flesh. This is not saying that these men has no free will in the matter.
In fact, Paul contradicts your presupposition in Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Boom, we heard, we believed/trusted, we were sealed, we will be redeemed. That's what Paul is alluding to here. You can't have Calvinism and the above verse.
Most famously from Paul we have the verse that's butchered in this thread, on the altar of last thread of desire to be free from God's will: "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love. In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves." You're ignoring those two words again; they're very important. See the video I posted on this above (edit: reposted below also).
Again, this was already addressed in the first video I posted. We are predestined for adoption, which is the redemption of our bodies (again see Ephesians 1:12-14 above) as stated in Romans 8:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Again, watch the detailed explanation:
It's choice, choice, choice from God. And it's glorious: "We have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worked all things after the counsel of His own will." Which is Ephesians 1:11, the context of which has been addressed and clarified by me and this video: James confirms: "Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?" CONTEXT. James is trying to persuade the readers to ignore the economic status of people in their churches, and treat all men with equal grace. Nothing in James 2 is actually about salvation (other than maybe the principle behind James 2:10). The entire epistle is about service and witness, not salvation. Peter confirms: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." Dude, read who the epistle of 1 Peter, written by the Apostle to the Jews (Galatians 2:8), is written to, in the very first verse of the letter: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in...". This is written to Jews, who are God's chosen people in order to enact His will in regards to their role in spreading the Gospel, not in regards to individual salvation.David confirms: "How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You to dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple." That's a stretch. David is probably referring to the Kings, the Priests, or even the Jews themselves - in regards to role, not salvation. Holy moly is that a heck of a twisting of scripture. God chooses who is saved just as He chose Israel as His nation: "The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." No where does it actually say this. In fact, it's contradicted in many scriptures such as (again) 2 Peter 3:9, Ephesians 1:12-14, Matthew 23:37-39, John 12:32, 1 John 2:2, Acts 7:51, Exodus 32:9, John 7:17 along with John 6:40, and many more.
In fact, without free will, then God is purposefully determining us to sin - which means He's the author of it. Because "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong." And because "God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He has compassion." Which again, is speaking of the role of the Jews being abrogated to the Gentiles, not the choice of whom to save and who to damn to hell. Hey, at least you get free-will to choose who you will marry. Wait, did Jesus say: "What God has joined together, let no one separate." Why don't you quote the whole verse? Is it because it actually contradicts your presupposition?
"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."
I become one flesh with my wife because of how God made man and women - this isn't about how God has secretly forced upon you a spouse. ETA: these verses alone are the end of Calvinism: 1 Timothy 2: Those verses there are another fatal blow to Calvinism and it's Gnostic teaching on the lack of free will - because they're making God out to be a liar here, or at least the Bible.
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Post by whatif on Sept 29, 2017 9:21:22 GMT -6
Thank you so much, mike, for reminding folks to come to this thread for the predestination/free will discussion! I appreciate it!
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